why does liandry's have flat magic pen on it? with the burn doing current health dmg you would say liandry's is for doing dmg to tanks. But the flat magic pen is very effective vs squishy characters but the burn contradicts building it for that reason. if liandrys had a percentage pen on it it would actually fit the theme of tank busting. you could make the item like black cleaver so that hitting champs with more spells will give more percent pen on that target.
Verandure16 votesBecuz win do laundries, my favorite tanks haz their colour run. Rito plz. Laundries temperature too hi. Plz nerf.
The low cost of 
was meant to cause mages to prioritize the item early. For mages with low cooldowns or damage over time abilities and also with lower-than-average AP ratios, Liandry's has historically been in the preferred build path.
Early game, there isn't enough magic resistance on the enemy champions for Void Staff to be efficient (the two items break even closer to 90MR, last I checked). Unfortunately, flat penetration, by its nature, will always disproportionately effect those that don't normally build resistances at all. In previous seasons; Liandry's was kept in line due to having sub-optimal AP compared to the holy trinity of AP items: Deathcap, Zhonya's, DFG (120AP items).
Saianna9 votesLow cost? Are all mages millionaires or what...?
Verandure1 votesI'm still stuck in S3 brain, so bear with me. I gave this game a miss for most of S4,5, and 6.
Compared to Deathcap, Zhonya's, and DFG (because of the Needlessly Large Rod -- back when it was 1600g) Liandry's was a cheaper, early-mid game option for mages.
LordGeovanni2 votesTheir wave clear and cooldowns would suggest so
Sagaxwiki7 votesVoid actually breaks even at 15/0.35 = 43 total magic resist which really isn't a whole lot.
Tormyth4 votesBecuz win do laundries, my favorite tanks haz their colour run. Rito plz. Laundries temperature too hi. Plz nerf.
The low cost of
Early game, there isn't enough magic resistance on the enemy champions for Void Staff to be efficient (the two items break even closer to 90MR, last I checked). Unfortunately, flat penetration, by its nature, will always disproportionately effect those that don't normally build resistances at all. In previous seasons; Liandry's was kept in line due to having sub-optimal AP compared to the holy trinity of AP items: Deathcap, Zhonya's, DFG (120AP items).
/
hello tanks
Stephenizgod1 votesLol rushing instead of 
? What is this Season 3-5?
Verandure1 votesYes.
Stephenizgod1 votesoh... ok
Melledoneus10 votesLiandry's is meant to punish health stacking. The flat pen is a nice little addition to take down big mages like Vlad or Swain.
Void staff is meant to punish MR stacking.
resumed9 voteshealth stacking already punishes health stacking
Melledoneus1 votesI mean more along the lines of 
.
But yeah, I'm wondering how health stacking punishes health stacking.
MunchCrunchLunch7 votesumm nobody healthstacks anymore tho. it went away when they nerfed cinderhulk and warmogs
Pale Pirate7 votesWhy health stack when you can get awesome passives while also getting resists AND health? 
AmetDeCrypt1 votesI was gonna say vayne exists but the tanks could probably just slap her once or twice and she'll fade away.
LordGeovanni2 votesbecause true damage and crit that you cant reach or run from is so easy to get rid of
AmetDeCrypt1 votesyou ever played tanks? they have this thing called crowd control. it's why you don't ignore them in teamfights or they'd just be bricks standing doing nothing. have the maokai root slow knockup her for a couple seconds and problem solved, she'll probably be almost dead before his ult pops if she isn't already because she's so squishy.
LordGeovanni1 votestanks have crowd control yes but for far less damage and longer cooldowns than everyone else with shorter range and most carries dont even follow up their tank until their tank has been tanking for 3 seconds and if hes still over 60% hp they may follow up. A full tank maokai cant kill vayne with w and q he would have to be fed and building significant ap not to mention as soon as the w q combo is over she can e him away and lifesteal with crit and use true damage to kill him. the moment maokai autos dorung the combo he loses any way to catch up to her again as adcs build an item that gives them constant movement speed to go with their range and its on their core items anyway. while any one who wants do deal with them and have a shorter range have to use items that give conditional movement speed and hope they have more mobility spells
AmetDeCrypt1 votesunless the vayne is completely confident in her skills as soon as his combo is done (which by the way does a hell of a lot of damage if he even has his RoA at 5 or 6 stacks) she's going to try and get out and trading is going to be one of the last things on her mind with maybe 300-500 hp left and no idea if there is a rengar ulting in at the moment.
LordGeovanni1 voteshttp://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=8321453
You cant build no defense then cry that some one built damage and defense killed you when your champions strength is that they are strong as long as they arent caught
AmetDeCrypt1 votesmao builds RoA. he's always built it for the mixed stats and boost it gives him in trading before he goes into full tank. and why am I suddenly the one crying about things?? my entire argument has been that vayne isn't as bad as she sounds if you just hit her a couple times because in order to do this damage you cry about she has to totally sacrifice defensive items with her average AA range, low base defensive stats, virtually no poke and no rfc does not count if everyone can build it, and need to go all in to do literally any meaningful damage unless she is fed.
by the way did you forget that part about this being a vayne debate and maokai only being brought up because he's my default top so I know just what he can do to an unprepared squishy?
LordGeovanni1 votesthats bruiser build full tanks dont build damage items. not that his skills scale well with ap in the first place its just that its the only thin they scale with
AmetDeCrypt1 votestanks don't buy damage...
so black cleaver is pretty much a super niche item right?
YES TANKS BUY A LITTLE BIT OF DAMAGE IN CERTAIN BUILDS, if they went full tank they'd fall off in damage lategame and could be safely ignored or replaced with a tanky bruiser. at that point you're a glorified support, and not a top laner in the slightest. it's nothing close to a bruiser item, it's a rush buy item with a mix of offense and defense that scales decently into lategame, and it makes maokai HURT and become a threat when he dives.
unless your base damages are just so good that you don't need to or were designed not to (cough cough 
) you get a little damage to round your build out, and even then these guys take some damage items for some extra cheese.
LordGeovanni1 votesBlack cleaver is built on fighters (bruisers Juggernauts) not tanks when build damage you cease to be a tank and become a bruiser.
AmetDeCrypt1 votesso gnar is not a tank. juggernauts are not tanks.
LordGeovanni1 votesthere you go you got it
Veltox7 votesDo we really need more tank bursting with all we got?
PermabannedGaren1 votesDo we really need more tank bursting with all we got?
Considering tanks just got a free 2,000 health shield late game, yeah, I'd say we do.
Veltox1 votesNo we don't. That keystone allowed divers,tanks and juggernauts to finally stand a chance without building mainly full damage.
PermabannedGaren1 votesNo we don't. That keystone allowed divers,tanks and juggernauts to finally stand a chance without building mainly full damage.
They're not "standing a chance", they're the best champions in the game (not juggernauts though, most can't use it).
Sire Hippington5 votesWhile i agree that Liandries contradicts itself, i don't think it's a good idea to give it %pen. Lategame tankbusting overall is already absurdly high, we don't need to further increase that. I'd prefer changes that focus on the flatpen side aka helping high basedamage champs to burst squishys. And if we keep it as anti tank, we should just focus on the burn instead of adding %pen/shred to it.
FakeGravity2 votesjust remove the flat pen and add and effect that say the burn effect ignores % of magic resist, making it good against tanks but meh against squishy targets
JerulEon2 votesI think it's for more overall poke against everyone regardless of tankiness. The burn is stronger with the flat armor pen against squishier targets. It's not meant to be an anti tank item
kile1472 votesThe biggest disappointment of the MYMU for me was that they didn't do anything with Liandries. It has too many conflicting purposes and it would've been nice to see it split into two different items.
Dengeden1 votesHaunting Guise is so often mocked as being countered by tank items that I have to think it's intentional.
LordGeovanni1 votesexcept tank items are balanced with out penetration readily facorited magic resist ones any way and its hard to build more than 1 magic resist item with 3 parts of teams doing physical damage. Penetration takes away from total mr so even if you get tank items total mr still being taken away from
Dengeden1 votesMR per level is a thing too though. And the fact that the sustain from the Cowel items is also a dece mage counter.
LordGeovanni1 votesmages usually have low cooldown spamable spells most of the mages who have both also dont have much mana costs only a few do. mr per level doesnt do much when mr goes to 150 and stops after mr per level at max level runes and one mr item while mages easily make it over 500 ap with 3 second spells to use not even counting magic penetration and the fact that physical damage from auto attack isnt to be ignored too.
Teridax681 votesFrom what Xypherous mentioned a while back, the idea behind Liandry's is that it's meant to punish raw health-stacking, i.e. if you're a tank against someone with Liandry's, you need to build MR, otherwise your health gets melted away. The implementation is not great, and the flat pen does give mages better burst against squishies, even though the item's DPS-based, so there's still a lot of confusion, but that much about it and tanks is intentional.
deadlychuck3 votesIt's ironic that they'd claim that to be the purpose, when the AD counterpart is much, much, much better at doing the exact same thing.
Liandry's doesn't scale, but BotRK does scale it's % dmg with atk speed, on top of having it's active. Which honestly, i've never seen a mage with Liandry's do significant damage because of it. Health stacking is still one of the most effective ways to nullify a mage, and armor still hardly does shit to stop marksmen and fighters.
Teridax681 votesI agree with this, BotRK scales at least with attack speed, whereas Liandry's doesn't scale with anything, aside from its arbitrary synergy with Rylai's. Neither BotRK nor Liandry's are in a particularly great state right now, but at least BotRK's effects still feel better to use.
To be honest, I feel the whole anti-health and anti-resistance systems in itemization are kinda messed up at this point. The existence of anti-health items like Liandry's and BotRK means anyone can start ignoring a portion of the enemy's health, which forces either health items to give too much health in compensation, or those two items to be ineffective at their very niche, which is somewhat the case now. Similarly, armor/magic penetration means everyone gets to counter resistances to some degree, which inflates the values on armor and MR items. Basically, the very existence of items that counter existing counters to damage means that either tanky items need to give too many stats for tanks and fighters to survive, or those second-hand counter items need to be useless in order to not invalidate tanky champions.
In the end, I think don't think any mage should be completely shut down by health- or MR-stacking, and the only mages who get to really counter health are the ones designed for it, and should have the max health damage or pseudo-spellvamp to do so if they don't already. Basically, it would be better to have a League in which health, armor and MR could still counter damage, but never hard-counter it, and in which those stats weren't negated in large part by other items, which either give everyone access to tankbusting or end up being too weak to accomplish their goal, as is the case with Liandry's now.
NoDaddyItHurts1 votesBecause stacking %magic pen isn't good at all.
Off Meta Evan1 voteswhy not have it be good against both? as far as i've seen tbh the burn is mostly for DOT champs like 
. which 2 of those are gonna be fighting tanky champions most likely and Brands passive works well with the burn. i think its an aight item personally. it also works really well with a full pen build good bye tanks.
A little Peepo1 votesLiandry's is honestly just another niche item like nashors and rage blade, some champions just make better use of the item than others.
Requiemsfire1 votesLiandries torment is more about countering health stacking as opposed to killing tanks with resistances.
agbudar1 votespersonally i think it is fine
certain champs put it to good use 
others like 
doesnt really work.
personally i think its a good item it gives me something against health stackers and also allows me to do good damage against squishies who also feel the burn from getting hit by spells empowered by liandry.
