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@Riot – Last Hitting Caster Minions Under Tower is Different in Patch 4.20 – Is this Intended?

AlyCat103··21 votes·2,365 views

Since patch 4.20 I've had a difficult time last hitting caster minions under the tower. It seems that I can no longer cs under the tower in the same way I used to prior to patch 4.20.

I run flat ad quints, and marks (armour yellow, mr blues). I run additional ad so when a full health caster minion reaches the turret, in order for me to get the last hit the tower will hit the minion, then I hit the minion. Other ad's (running a combination of life steal and/or attack speed with ad) cannot last hit this way, instead they cs caster minions by aa, tower, aa. This is the reason why I continue to run flat ad quints (and marks) I like being able to last hit caster minions without having to set them up myself, or rely on my support to set them up for me. This is not a very popular rune set up. It has it's pro's and con's. As mentioned, the only reason I continue to run this rune set up (and have since early season 2) is for tower last hitting.

My method of cs'ing under the tower no longer works in patch 4.20. Here's a video demonstrating the differences: http://youtu.be/4mZ5UfU9oz8

In the video you can see that this also seems to be inconsistent. On occasion I can last hit the caster minions in the same way I was able to prior to patch 4.20, and other times I cannot. (Caster minions seem to have different amounts of total hp when under the tower as well.)

I sent in a support ticket (#14973873) inquiring about this, and specifically asking, “Is this intentional? Does Riot know about this, and/or plan making ad marks and quints viable again (lets be honest, this is a pretty big problem for anyone running flat ad marks, and quints)? “ After several days of waiting I got a response (from a billing specialist) that changes are made in new season, to “feel free to pick any runes or mysteries [sic] that you may feel may help you with this strategy, going into the new season.” Then I was told if I had more questions to check out the boards, and linked to the patch run down video. zzzzzz

My original question, if this change is intentional was never answered. (I also submitted a different video (less in depth than the one I'm currently linking) and it doesn't appear to me that it was viewed.)

This seems like an unintended bug that was missed (only players running flat ad quints and marks would notice this). The way it previously worked made sense in terms of balance and risk vs reward/pro vs con.

So here I am, looking for a red response to my original question, (sorry if this is the wrong place to post this...)

Are the changes to last hitting caster minions under the tower in patch 4.20 (with flat ad quints, and marks, only a dorans blade) intentional? If not, are there any plans to change/modify this so it works the same as it did in previous seasons/patches?

9 Comments

SouL1ess9 votes

Increases to minion health are very annoying to champions that are on the edge of CSing conveniently.

At this point, I wouldn't call the effectual change intentional or not, since I doubt Riot changed minion health while considering this consequence.

AlyCat1031 votes

I don't think it was intentional. (I hope it wasn't, so it can be tweaked, and fixed :D )

I think it just wasn't tested with flat ad quints (and marks) so it was missed/not noticed is testing (no one else has noticed this change, they all run different runes, so it doesn't affect them). There are small things that could fix this (change tower damage to casters, change early minion health, runes, mastery tweaks etc.) but it has to be brought to their (Riot's) attention first, I don't think it has been (yet).

The Mormonator2 votes

As far as I know, it has always been aa, tower, aa for casters. At least for the past season unless you have items that allow for tower, aa.

AlyCat1033 votes

It has always been that way (aa, tower, aa) unless you run additional ad (ad quints, as well as ad marks). In season 2 additional ad (tower, aa, to last hit casters) was more popular to start. Then life steal became more popular, making players running life steal quints aa, tower, aa to get the last hit.

In the video I've linked, I've shown that running additional ad (quints and marks) used to allow you to cs caster minions with tower, then aa (replay is from Nov 8th). This is how it has always been since I can remember knowing how to cs under the tower (I have always ran flat ad quints, and marks).

ValyrianBlade2 votes

They changed minions to scale health instead of armour so that armour pen wouldn't affect waveclear ability.

I'm guessing you have a mastery with armour pen which no longer helps your waveclear, and that small difference results in you not being able to kill with 1 auto.

I'm also guessing it's inconsistent because at some points (really early) the difference between health scaling and armour scaling are insignificant (say you have 5 armour pen and they have 2 armour, then you're only using 2 armour pen). Once it gets to the point where the full mastery took effect, it hurts your last hitting.

All just a guess, but it seems logical to me.

AlyCat1031 votes

I do take the mastery for armour pen (6% armour pen, also butcher). I do think you're right, and the issue is with the health scaling. It's slightly too much (early) to continue to be able to last hit with 1 aa. After approx 8 min or so I get additional ad, so it's no longer an issue.

Although the inconsistency is a little more puzzling for me. It seems to happen reliably top lane, the few tests I did bot lane I couldn't reproduce this at level 3. I was able to do this once at level 2 bot lane, but the video didn't record properly, and it's hard to get bots to push that hard at level 1 and 2 :P So I suspect it has something more to do with the scaling health and top lane, or that casters gathering at tower have different amounts of hp at the same time in the game. So ones that have additional hp cannot be last hit, where as ones with the lower hp (probably from the previous wave, that haven't died yet) can be last hit. (At the end of the video there's 6 casters at the tower at level 2, some of them have 301 max hp, others have 312)

As I mentioned while changing minion health was done intentionally, I suspect that it's not intended to change last hitting under the tower for players like myself (running flat ad quints, as well as marks). I feel like this issue was probably missed because so few players, currently, continue to run flat ad quints (it functions the same I believe for players not running flat ad quints and marks).

If this is unintended, there are small changes that can be made (I would imagine) that won't have to much of an affect on other aspects of the game (such as pushing, as you mentioned).

Sovreign221 votes

Nice video.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

I was also wondering about this. It makes it especially difficult for me to lasthit under tower with casters, as sometimes AA-tower-tower-aa is not enough to cs melee minions.

Cuje1 votes

Soooo... did Riot know that they were inadvertently nerfing flat AD runes? Is this an intentional consequence of buffing minions?

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