Sejuani Nerfs Followed by CinderHulk Nerfs

Phrite·Mar 25, 2015·70 votes·23,411 views

Maybe this is dumb because I'm not ranked or anything so what do I know, but it seems like a strange balance idea to nerf Sej on one week due to the power of the newly released CinderHulk and then the following patch nerf CinderHulk (PBE) with no recompense to Sej. It appears like the appropriate order would have been to nerf CinderHulk if planned and then tweak Sej accordingly if still needed.

Thoughts?

My goal is not to state Sej doesn't need nerfs. I could care less either way. This balance decision stands out to me though because it seems like it happened backwards.

130 Comments

RiotMeddlerMar 26, 201529 votes

We felt Sej was clearly too strong in 5.5, relative to other tank junglers in particular, and chose to remove some power from her as a result. We kept the 5.6 nerfs to her relatively minor since the state of the game's still adapting to Cinderhulk's introduction and she hasn't been a consistent, long running problem (though was definitely strong pre 5.5). Having had a bit more time now to assess Cinderhulk we also feel it's a little bit too strong. We're glad to see tanks being successful with it, but feel it's a bit too strong compared to other options. Current thinking is to drop it from 350 to 300 HP as a result.

captainkaigerMar 26, 20153 votes

But Meddler, Sej was strong pre 5.5 because once she got past her weak early game, she brought a lot to the team through cc and slows. The problem was that Cinderhulk was a bit too good. It enabled her to clear more safely and gank like crazy. I certainly noticed the powershift myself, but the cause wasn't because of Sejuani. I agree that cinderhulk needs a nerf but it doesn't seem fair in the least to punish her for being in the limelight, at least for a short while.

Electro522Mar 26, 20156 votes

What I don't understand is why your complaining about the nerfs. They slightly nerfed the damage on her W, BUFFED the damage on her E, and made her ultimate more skill reliant.

Yes, its a nerf, but its BARELY a nerf. So, why are you complaining?

GaleWinUnleashedMar 26, 20159 votes

The E buff was reverted, just to let you know. But yeah, a 2% decrease to W on-hit damage (AoE damage is unaffected) isn't exactly game-breaking.

TotalJerkMar 26, 201510 votes

I think you ought to lower the bonus ratio a bit instead of the base health. This hurts resistance focused tanks who already don't get as much from it far more than it hurts the health stackers who are dominating with it.

Rinky DinkyMar 26, 20153 votes

No, that would be awful.

Why would any champion in this game prefer 50 hp to 5% bonus health.

No.

TotalJerkMar 26, 20153 votes

I never suggested a number, but the Cinderhulk on the PBE gives less health below 1000 bonus health than the ratio you implied I suggested. Champions like Rammus would be better served with 350+(20% bonus HP) than they would with 300+(25% bonus HP) because they get more benefits out of building resistance early-to-midgame.

Regardless, I wasn't thinking something as harsh as taking a whole 5% off the bonus.

qetzelMar 26, 20153 votes

Actually, despite the ratios, Rammus gets more benefit from building health as well. Building health lets Rammus live longer, so his spikyness is hurting the enemy adc for longer. Overall it is more damage.

Cosmic WarperMar 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

We felt Sej was clearly too strong in 5.5, relative to other tank junglers in particular, and chose to remove some power from her as a result. We kept the 5.6 nerfs to her relatively minor since the state of the game's still adapting to Cinderhulk's introduction and she hasn't been a consistent, long running problem (though was definitely strong pre 5.5). Having had a bit more time now to assess Cinderhulk we also feel it's a little bit too strong. We're glad to see tanks being successful with it, but feel it's a bit too strong compared to other options. Current thinking is to drop it from 350 to 300 HP as a result.

Do you guys see cinderhulk as a midgame issue, and that's why you're nerfing the hp it gives by 50? Did you guys consider that it may be too strong in terms of the scaling it gives since there are super beefy unkillable tank junglers late game because of it?

NublordMar 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

We felt Sej was clearly too strong in 5.5, relative to other tank junglers in particular, and chose to remove some power from her as a result. We kept the 5.6 nerfs to her relatively minor since the state of the game's still adapting to Cinderhulk's introduction and she hasn't been a consistent, long running problem (though was definitely strong pre 5.5). Having had a bit more time now to assess Cinderhulk we also feel it's a little bit too strong. We're glad to see tanks being successful with it, but feel it's a bit too strong compared to other options. Current thinking is to drop it from 350 to 300 HP as a result.

Sad I have to be this guy, but yes. Sejuani is non a consistent, long running problem in jungle. Lee Sin is. Happy to see how fair your are about your champions, when it comes to nerfing something what is considered too strong (or in Lee case - more like overloaded).

gottrjrMar 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

We felt Sej was clearly too strong in 5.5, relative to other tank junglers in particular, and chose to remove some power from her as a result. We kept the 5.6 nerfs to her relatively minor since the state of the game's still adapting to Cinderhulk's introduction and she hasn't been a consistent, long running problem (though was definitely strong pre 5.5). Having had a bit more time now to assess Cinderhulk we also feel it's a little bit too strong. We're glad to see tanks being successful with it, but feel it's a bit too strong compared to other options. Current thinking is to drop it from 350 to 300 HP as a result.

I am enjoying playing tank junglers so I probably should keep my mouth shut but 50 hp is not going to fix it. I feel that the strength of cinderhulk is the ability to get 1000 HP from Warmogs using the Cinderhulk passive. The passive is what makes Cinderhulk so strong.

Ark Angel HFBMar 26, 20153 votes

{quoted}

hasn't been a consistent, long running problem.

LeeSin

ThefriendlyorcMar 25, 201510 votes

And sion nerfs too. Because letting him be successful is a no no

SeviangMar 25, 201517 votes

Sion needed the nerfs tho. Pretty crazy to be top tier in both top lane and jungle lol.

mew28Mar 25, 20154 votes

Nid can so why can he not do it to

AbyssphereMar 25, 20159 votes

{quoted}

Nid can so why can he not do it to

Nid is nowhere near top tier in top lane or mid. She's jungle exclusive right now.

TotalJerkMar 26, 20153 votes

A pure CC tank shouldn't hurt like a bruiser and poke like a mage, period.

Jungle Sion has almost unlimited sustain mixed with an above-average clear.

Lane Sion spams E all day and never loses trades.

As someone who half mains Sion, I still admit the changes are deserved.

ThefriendlyorcMar 26, 20151 votes

Except you cant spam E anymore, You'll go oom. You max Q in lane and all You'll be good for is shaking off all in champions and farming. He's a 100% skill shot champion with scaling mana costs on most of his abilities save for Q, which is one of the hardest to land (to full effectiveness) skill shots in the game. Yet he gets shafted in both of his roles like its not even a thing. Sion was laughed at a few months ago when his rework went through and people were using his ult, now he's strong and new and no one knows how to 'counter' him. So they dont bother learning, they just cry about it and he gets nerfed to shit. Never thought I'd see it in the league of mobility, where the immobile (save for ult) completely skill shot based juggernaut with easy to dodge attacks needs to get dumpstered, because people cant dodge.

TotalJerkMar 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

you cant spam E anymore

You can't max your E to add free power at no cost, but it's still spammable. I just shouted someone out of a lane earlier today.

A "juggernaut" is besting his opponents by screaming at them from behind his minions until they go away. It's bad enough that he screams "COWARDS!" while running away.

{quoted}

the immobile (save for ult)

36 second cooldown at level 3 and max CDR, covers almost half the map, providing CC immunity during.

{quoted}

because people cant dodge.

You mean like a Nidalee spear?

GundayMondayMar 25, 20159 votes

Yep, seems silly to me too.

Before patch 5.5, Sejuani is pretty balanced and in a good place. During patch 5.5, Cinderhulk is released and SEJUANI IS OP PICK OR BAN INSANE DAMAGE RITO NERF PLS (even though no changes to the champion occurred) Patch 5.6 Sejuani is nerfed on her W and Ultimate ability. Patch 5.7 Cinderhulk is nerfed, leaving Sejuani even weaker. Patch 5.X Cinderhulk is removed from game, Sejuani now UP again.

The cycle of buffs and nerfs continues.

killd0zerMar 25, 201535 votes

Lol more like

Before 5.5, Sejuani is a very strong, and under appreciated champion. Her popularity was on the rise.

5.5 nerfs current popular junglers (her competition), introduces an new very strong jungle item, of which Sejuani has massive synergy with. Jungle damage reduced slightly (early clear is her biggest challenge)

Sejuani is now one of the best jungler in the game, which was predicted before 5.5 dropped.

The SoulforgedMar 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Lol more like

Before 5.5, Sejuani is a very strong, and under appreciated champion. Her popularity was on the rise.

5.5 nerfs current popular junglers (her competition), introduces an new very strong jungle item, of which Sejuani has massive synergy with. Jungle damage reduced slightly (early clear is her biggest challenge)

Sejuani is now one of the best jungler in the game, which was predicted before 5.5 dropped.

But is there anything wrong with being one of the best junglers?

FreljordanMar 25, 20154 votes

It is if that jungler is so good they crowd out other picks, which is what the nerf hammer is for. See for an example how previous to 5.5 you basically only saw just 3 or 4 junglers ever being played 90% of the time ( JarvanIV LeeSin with a few champs that rose and fell like nid/panth ).

RetillinMar 26, 20153 votes

But isn't the the issue? J4, LS, Vi and now Nid were allowed (or are allowed nid) to be top of the jungle patch after patch. While 1-2 patches saw the explosion of Sej (more in popularity) and then she is nerfed.

I don't mind the quick hit to bring her more into line (she has been my fav jungle for about 3 years now), but it doesn't seem to fit with Riot's other methods. Just like they said they wanted to wait and see what Nid does with tanks roaming around instead of also nerfing her...

BeldoriMar 25, 20159 votes

They took off 50 health from cinderhulk wow what a nerf seriously that's barely gonna tickle a tank as a nerf that hurts more the fighters that take it which riot did state when they were bring cinderhulk out that if fighters were taking it a lot they would nerf the base health on it so it wouldn't be a good take for them so all this is for is to bring the item in line with other choices which isn't a surprise. If they nerfed the aoe damage or the bonus health then that would hurt tanks way more

Remlap1223Mar 26, 20155 votes

NO YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT!!!1! IT ALSO NERFS THE BONUS HP!!!1! THAT'S LIKE A WHOLE 10 HEALTH GONE AS WELL!!1! 60 HEALTH MISSING!!! IT'S THE END TIMES! THE END TIMES I TELL YOU!

JunkοMar 26, 20152 votes

It's actually 12 health. THE HORROR

Silents429Mar 26, 20152 votes

Hey man 50HP is like a 3rd of an auto attack!

junglerboy16Mar 25, 20154 votes

I agree that the order is out of whack (always do the blanket nerfs/buffs first, and then followup with individual tuning) however, Cinderhulk needs this nerf, and Gromp buff needs a nerf (even though it hasn't been), and Sejuani is not going to become unplayable because of this (she will still be top tier as a jungle champion). Riot overbooked tanks and they are tuning them appropriately, which is far better than underbuying them and leaving them still weak.

The5lackerMar 25, 20151 votes

Perhaps we should just take this whole "+25% bonus Health" concept behind the shed and put it out of its misery.

Tis a nice dayMar 25, 20155 votes

Make it "+30% bonus Health"?

Going DarkMar 25, 20151 votes

He said put it out of its misery, not give it a blowjob.

Tis a nice dayMar 25, 201511 votes

But don't blowjobs pull you out of misery? And aren't they usually done behind a shed?

Kitten of EvilMar 25, 20153 votes

Or behind a grain elevator.

RetillinMar 26, 20155 votes

God damn it Pam...

Kitten of EvilMar 26, 20151 votes

Hey, you know what!?

RetillinMar 26, 20153 votes

Something something danger zone?

Kitten of EvilMar 26, 20152 votes

Oh, like Kenny Loggins' Roasters?

RetillinMar 26, 20155 votes

If I stop drinking all at once, I’m afraid the cumulative hangover will kill me.

terkmcMar 25, 20152 votes

Stahp you are giving me a hard-on

PhriteMar 25, 20158 votes

Oh I'm with you I don't think she'll be even remotely unplayable. I just think it might have made more sense to tweak CinderHulk prior to Sej. I think she would still get at least some nerfs regardless but it would be better if the nerfs were applied when CinderHulk was in its correct spot vs falsely inflating her power while waiting to be nerfed.

137434Mar 25, 20152 votes

It can go both ways. Nerfing her first puts her closer to the other tanks, giving them greater play potential, and then Riot can get a better idea over how the Cinderhulk nerfs will effect all the tanks. Nerfing Cinderhulk first won't change the fact that Sej would still crowd out the other junglers that it is designed for- it will just make her slightly weaker compared to before. Remember Riot is aiming for diversity.

SammystormMar 25, 20154 votes

Sejuani was strong pre cinderhulk. The nerfs that went through well be negligible. Unless I am missing something the minor cost increase and health decrease on cinderhulk will not severely impact sejuani either.

DeusVultMar 26, 20154 votes

They did the same thing earlier this season

Warwick + item 3718 was insanely strong

Next Patch: they nerf Warwick hard

They nerf item 3715 so it is now almost exclusively used for its damage reduction

they nerf item 3718 (the enchantment) so its no longer as strong

Warwick goes from being a mediocre pick, to being a top pick, to getting nerfed because of an item, then the item gets nerfed so it no longer makes him anywhere near as strong. Yet Warwick got no compensation, and he's back to being a mediocre pick

1999 01 17Mar 25, 20153 votes

she will still be the best junglers even after nerfs to both her and cinderhulk

quit your crying

PhriteMar 25, 20158 votes

Where do you see anyone crying? I don't even care that she was nerfed. My point is the order in which they did things. You should probably read posts before replying.

Jaygo41Mar 25, 20153 votes

Meanwhile J4 gets his armor reduced and his item nerfed in one patch and the buff of tank junglers and their item in the next. +3 base armor tho

Imperial JapanMar 25, 20153 votes

I think they should leave the sej nerfs but shouldn't carry out their cindrhulk nerfs

IcyPepperMar 25, 20152 votes

They nerfed the only spell affected by the HP increase, and her ult (which had nothing to do with it).

sighs

No compensation for nerfing the item that got her nerfed in the first place?

KingsgraveMar 26, 20154 votes

{quoted}

They nerfed the only spell affected by the HP increase, and her ult (which had nothing to do with it).

sighs

No compensation for nerfing the item that got her nerfed in the first place?

She already had a 55% winrate before cinder hulk. It only went up by 3% but her play rate tripled.