This past year Riot has offered new focus on reworking unhealthy champions and unhealthy mechanics; is spell vamp. and champion focused on its use (Vladimir, Mordekaiser, Akali etc) on the books to reworked or redesigned?
Any thoughts on the role of spell vamp?
RiotMeddler15 votesWe've been talking a bit about investigating changes to how spell vamp works. Things like making it heal based off pre mitigation damage for example. That would address one of its current issues where it's extremely effective against minion waves (little mitigation, lots of targets to hit with AOE) but offers little at all against tankier champs. Nothing concrete planned yet, it is an effect we'd like to take a look at some time soonish though (to be clear though, conclusion of that work might be that we don't make any changes, this isn't a promise there'll be something in a patch).
Duke Anax9 votesHave you thought about giving it a dynamic effect modifier?
I mean currently it's 33% of whatever AoE.
How about reducing it even further with the number of targets, but also letting it get the full single target Spellvamp when the AoE only hits one target.
Spellvamp / number of targets + 10%
the + 10 to get a small increase on AoE but not a lot.
edit: added an example.
Stars Shaper4 votesI pray just for you to remeber that there is a lot of champions that depends on spellvamp one of them being Mordekaiser who only has it as a way to compensate for skill cost while for all the others is a free stat (since they all goth a way to clear the skill cost once and for all, Morde shield doesn't make up for that).
I know this might sound complicated but wouldn't it be better if peculiar champions would have peculiar interactions with Spell Vamp? I'll do some rough examples:
Vladimir, he has hp cost on abilities that can be reintegrated with his Q. Spell Vamp for him is a must when Q alone doesn't suffice and gives him the tankyness needed to be a fighter.
Akali, for her is a 100% free stat that gives her the confidence to stay in combat long enough to delete your team (don't take me too seriously on this xD). She doesn't really "need" it but it's a core stat that gives her chances to regain hp after being beaten.
Mordekaiser, Spell Vamp is more than a must, it's basically what's keeping him alive expecially since the enormous nerf to his hp regen (which was totally unnecessary imo). Any change to what SV does might make him unkillable or unplayable.
Copyrat2 votesSpellvamp for Mordekaiser is the same as a mana regen item for a regular mage. You take it to sustain your spellcasting resource. Any additional heal you receive is mostly a bonus. It doesn't have to be an additional defensive layer for him, like how Morellonomicon doesn't provide any sustain for the mages that buy it.
Stars Shaper2 votesYou can't really compare HP cost champion to mana cost champion.
DanofDemacia3 votesWe've been talking a bit about investigating changes to how spell vamp works. Things like making it heal based off pre mitigation damage for example. That would address one of its current issues where it's extremely effective against minion waves (little mitigation, lots of targets to hit with AOE) but offers little at all against tankier champs. Nothing concrete planned yet, it is an effect we'd like to take a look at some time soonish though (to be clear though, conclusion of that work might be that we don't make any changes, this isn't a promise there'll be something in a patch).
You'll answer this but nothing about lux ever
Teridax681 votesWhat are your thoughts on the way spell vamp interacts with different kinds of champions? Unlike life steal, spell vamp is designed to work on effects with hugely different functionalities, which can be single-target or AoE, instant damage or damage over time. Do you think spell vamp is well-adapted to all of these effects as a unified system, or do you think different casters need different kinds of spell vamp?
Martyrofsand6 votesSo could you explain why Spell Vamping a minion wave providing a lot of health while providing limited healing against a tankier champ needs to be looked into and yet Life Steal which works in the exact same "get a ton of health off minions and minimal off tankier champs" set up seems to be perfectly fine?
Copyrat5 votesBecause lifesteal is limited to autoattacks. Those are single-target and the damage is directly affected by AD items and has limited variability. For ADC for example, their build paths are restricted to a handful of items, so you can calculate their total ADC, their crit chance, their AS, and then balance lifesteal accordingly. Regardless if you are Vayne, Lucian or Lulu, if you build AD+lifesteal, you will get roughly the same numbers (obviously there are differences in base stats and any potential steroids, but not that huge).
With spellvamp, though, the spells are much more variable. You have single target, AoE, DoTs, low cooldown spammable spells like Karthus Q, high cooldown nukes, spells that don't affect minions. It's much harder to find a single number that works for all.
Also, ADC don't have limited autoattacks. Obviously, they have a certain Attack Speed, but you can instantly change targets in the middle of the fight and accordingly change your lifesteal numbers. Mages, on the other hand, have cooldowns, so as far as spellvamp is concerned, a spell used on a tank is a spell wasted that you won't be able to use again for a few seconds. This, combined with the varied nature of spells makes spellvamp feel unreliable, as you get very different numbers depending on the champion, spell and target.
Martyrofsand1 votesThing is it isn't as difficult as you make it sound. Sure spell vamp returns can be more bursty due to hitting multiple targets at a time but the total values don't change. If a mord with WoTA deals 3k damage to clear a minion wave via AoE he still just gets back 600 hp. Likewise if a Draven with BT deals 3k damage to clear a wave he will also get back just 600 hp. The only real difference is mord regains the HP in a burst due to AoE and Draven gets it more consistently over time.
The tank argument feels hollow to me. Do I lose out on some spell vamp? Yeab but does it ever feel unsatisfing? Not even close. That tank isn't going to be able to kill my vlad before my vlad kills them simply due to the sustain even with their magic resist. Just because you don't get big numbers doesn't suddenly make something feel off.
3tyson1 votesThis because jinx and twitch dont have aoe auto attacks
Itsafriendly1 votesWe've been talking a bit about investigating changes to how spell vamp works. Things like making it heal based off pre mitigation damage for example. That would address one of its current issues where it's extremely effective against minion waves (little mitigation, lots of targets to hit with AOE) but offers little at all against tankier champs. Nothing concrete planned yet, it is an effect we'd like to take a look at some time soonish though (to be clear though, conclusion of that work might be that we don't make any changes, this isn't a promise there'll be something in a patch).
Have you contemplated working backwards redesigning/reworking the primary "spell Vamp champions" 
and 
?
Holy Malevolence1 votesM'thinks it'd be easier to just add spellvamp ratios.
'Caise, when it comes down to it, if AP was set up like spellvamp is, it wouldn't be balancable either. A 1.0 AP ratio on every single target ability with a .33 AP ratio on every AOE ability? Can you imagine how horrible the game would be if you didn't have AP ratios?
It's much the same way without proper spellvamp ratios. Which I been tellin' ya for ages and, quite seriously, I'm confused as to why you didn't do it years ago.
Oh, and I don't feel like it'd be a good idea to specifically make spellvamp more useful against champions. That's a good way to make Akali snowball ten times as hard. Vamp's not meant to be an in-combat sustain stat, and next to no champions would be able to use it as such. The value of lifesteal and spellvamp is that it's a form of sustain that, unlike health regeneration or ability heals, can be prevented by keeping your enemy away from things they can heal off.
Silvur 5 Smerf6 votesbuff mordekaiser
DontBanMeImDrunk3 votesVladimir is the only one which is seriously unhealthy, imo. Will of ancients grants him too much sustain, he is easier to play than riven vs some lanes.
Beddlam3 votesSpell vamp is fine, none of the champs that have it built in are OP, and it is very hard to itemize.
75% Spellvamp Ryze is not hard to do and ridiculous to play.
Abyssphere6 votesSpell vamp is fine, none of the champs that have it built in are OP, and it is very hard to itemize.
It being hard to itemise for is a pretty big hint that it's not fine. It's a stat that gets built on 3 people on average when there are dozens of mages in the game, what about that says "fine"?
Spell Vamp is a stat that is currently kept bad on purpose and as such is only utilised by people who are particularly effective at abusing it. That's not fine, it's just not overpowered. And I don't think the OP was saying it's overpowered.
Beddlam1 votes{quoted} Spell Vamp is a stat that is currently kept bad on purpose and as such is only utilised by people who are particularly effective at abusing it. That's not fine, it's just not overpowered. And I don't think the OP was saying it's overpowered.
Okay then I guess what I mean is, I think it's fine, what do you think is wrong with it? Specifically if you are calling out spellvamp, but not lifesteal?
It is a niche stat, but the champs that use it have kits designed around it, I don't think that is proof of anything being wrong with it.
Abyssphere2 votesOkay then I guess what I mean is, I think it's fine, what do you think is wrong with it? Specifically if you are calling out spellvamp, but not lifesteal?
It is a niche stat, but the champs that use it have kits designed around it, I don't think that is proof of anything being wrong with it.
I believe the problems Riot have with it are:
Spells can impact in AOE, which has a million complications in it. Right now Riot just says "33% Spell Vamp for AOE" but this is really lazy - a spell can at one time hit one person and get 33% healing and at another time hit 10 minions and still get that 33%. It's quite hard for a wide selection of champions to benefit from a stat that is tuned in such a limited way considering how many different ways Spell Vamp can be procd. This is compared to lifesteal which is always single-target and always at 100%, being completely standardised for all champs who build AD.
Spell Vamp healing, if strong, can be very bursty. Riot don't like burst healing (I seem to remember) because it leads to people being able to withstand a lot of burst just because they used a high damage ability. Lifesteal is consistent and in small amounts, whereas Spell Vamp will heal for a different amount with each spell and with particularly high damage spells, can give you a ridiculous amount back (think Veigar or Syndra R). Also, one of the main counters to Lifesteal as a survival mechanism is CC and target denial because Lifesteal needs to be continuous to work out. Spell Vamp is unlike that - if you get locked up in CC and survive the lockdown, you can press all your buttons in about a second and heal everything you would have done if you'd spread those spells out over 5 seconds.
Spell Vamp as an accessible stat has a lot of weird implications - an excellent example of this is Akali, whose passive is often complained about. Because Spell Vamp scales with damage done, it favours burst mages and especially assassins above everyone else. Imagine a strong Spell Vamp stat on Katarina - suddenly her ultimate heals her from 10% to full HP as well as destroying your team. Bursty characters aren't designed with sustain like that in mind and giving that much sustain to bursty characters as a whole could create total chaos.
Lifesteal as a stat has some problems that pop up on occasion, particularly with sustain-heavy bruisers such as the likes of Olaf, Tryndamere and Aatrox. As a stat it can turn tanky damage dealers into raid bosses that are unkillable except by 1v5 focusing. Spell Vamp being stronger and more accessible has the potential to create similar problems with AP bruisers - you can already see problems with Vladimir in this department and I expect you'd see similar cases with champions like Swain, Cass, Ryze and maybe even Elise. The game really doesn't need more champions with the ability to turn into raid bosses as the game progresses.
They're all the problems I can think of :P I feel like Lifesteal is balanced on a knife-edge and Spell Vamp has infinitely more complications regarding its balance than Lifesteal, so I just don't know how it can be balanced.
Ale non è male1 votesSpell Vamp being stronger and more accessible has the potential to create similar problems with AP bruisers - you can already see problems with Vladimir in this department and I expect you'd see similar cases with champions like Swain, Cass, Ryze and maybe even Elise. The game really doesn't need more champions with the ability to turn into raid bosses as the game progresses.
Ryze? Elise? Come on Spell Vamp is not much of a problem as you may it look like
Ryze problem wasn't with Spell Vamp and will not be Spell Vamp. Ryze problem is: should a champ be able to spam relentlessly skill chained one-next to other while remaining healthy for the game? The problem on old Ryze was that it was all a matter of range, if he had too much range he would wreck anybody, otheriwse he was useless. Add this to his very efficient offensively and defensively itemization based on mana, and you got possibly a monster which dealt tons of damage while being unkillable, and Spell Vamp (both ulti spell Vamp and eventually acquired with items spell vamp) was only the cream on the top of what was the deeper problem. Deeper problem that has been probably mainly solved thorugh Ryze rework that at least mitigate the problem by limiting the moments where Ryze can keep spamming spells, and new Ryze revolves about this management, again Spell Vamp becomes just the cream on top of a Ryze playerthat is wrecking enemies by his onw ability
Elise has literaly one spell on which she can apply full Spell Vamp and is somewhat spammable (not even that much in reality), and is not even that spammabale as the short range put her anyway in danger so have sustain rather than damage become an extra strategic choice, not an overbearing thing
On Swain, Vladimir can Spell Vamp represent a problem? Yes, but it makes them basically invincible in what were yet match-ups really favourable to them (or the ability of the player make them favourable), as they are limited by range first and foremost. While it IS true that LOL, unlike DoTA, does not aim to balance champions by making all of them unbeatable in certain situations, and Spell Vamp could make Swain, Vlad that some times, it is also true that it is actually possible to play around their kits with enough champs that honestly it becomes more a problem of tweak some numbers and skill mechanic (hey, I'm looking at you Vlad Q CD at later levels) than throw in the bin Spell Vamp completely
Cass... well, is the same question as Ryze old and new kit, and it relies more on actually resetting CDs and earning power and dealing damage through hitting Twin Fang and the numbers of her kit rather then being a problem of Spell Vamp that is eventually just the cream on the top of the cake which represent eventually the core problem (just as Vlad and Swain)
The claim on Spell Vamp helping burst mages and assassins is kinda skewed, too. The problem of burst mages and assassins remains the one to find balance between their abilities to kill the target and the possibility of the target to reply or not allow burst mages/assassin to dish that damage without being in huge danger to die. Use Akali as example does not work because Akali had different problems, the spammable skills and being manaless with low CD and being capable to regenerate easily energy while being capable to going in stealth mode baing non hittable and receive armor/MR on the old twilight shroud if you could spot here + a respectable ulti range before the nerfs, and Spell Vamp only worsened the situation without being the true roots of them...and as a matter of fact when Akali was hit by those other nerfs, people have not had a legit reason to complain about her unkillabilty since then even though the Spell Vamp is the same and potential damage outcome - and thus healing given by Spell Vamp - has ever increased IF she can get in range, which is much more dangerous and difficult
It is true that Spell Vamp could/should be changed, but not because it is really unhealthy to the game right now in terms of overall balance, but because it does not actually represent a strategic choice if build Spell Vamp or not...it is just a stat you build on few champs because they need it desperately and you pretty kind ignore on everyone else, while it should really be a strategic item build path that give an alternative to the actual ones available for AP champs, as partly happen on lifesteal that represent a secondary but still relevant factor in picking AD champs build and certain items over other
WarlockLaw3 votesHe was saying that if spell vamp became somewhat stronger those champions would become borderline unlikable. Right now the only champions that care about spell vamp are morgana, ryze, vlad, akali and morde. Two of them regularly build it while the other three get it for free. No other champion bothers to itemize it because the stat is bad on basically every other champion in the game.
Ale non è male1 votesBut his argument is still really flawed. in the examples he made of champs that would become unkillable (thus making Spell Vamp effectively unhealthy), it is never Spell Vamp the root of the problem , but it is champ design, or some number/mechanic a bit screwed on his own which effiectiveness Spell Vamp would only enhance (as much as CDR stat does on some other champs), it would still not Spell Vamp being overwhelming/unhealth per se The "what if" example he did on Kata were pointless as Spell Vamp is actually aimed just to avoid someone like Kata being capable to heal from 10% to 100%. Kata (and most of burst mages/ assassins) either kills you or if caught can pretty much die, so she care about having more dmg to being able to kill you faster and reduce her risks, not about having some kind of sustain which is indeed useless if she get caught on time anyway and for which she loses dmg increasing the time window when she is really vulnerable. So the fact kata does not build it speaks voulme about how Spell Vamp is not unhealthy in the sense he and others were claiming. Could Spell Vamp become more interesting as strategic choice if its mechanism is tweaked some way rather than being a boring obligated choice on few champs and ignored by others? It could be possible...but in the meantime, well, complain about it being unhealthy makes no sense. Complain about it not making an interesting strategic choice, I can agree, but that was not clearly the meaning he was giving to the term unhealthy for the most part of his reasoning
SnugglePuggle941 votesMorgana has a 20% Spell Vamp passive. Take her mid with some spell vamp runes, WIll of the Ancients, and other AP items and she gets fed, she is OP.
Ale non è male1 votesNope. Morgana apply full Spell Vamp only on her Q, and she is a champ that overall does not deal a lot of damage if she can't keep you in W radius for long And/or root/stun you for a long duration allowing her to do damage without enemnies trading it ack (due to Black Shield too) So it is not Spell Vamp that makes her eventually her OP, but the ability to hit you with her Q and to time effectively ulti without getting in danger in a way she can damage you without receiving damage back at all, even before she can make use of that Spell Vamp power See the difference? Spell Vamp is not THE root of the problem
SnugglePuggle941 votesI misinformed you, some reason I thought it was 20% its actually 15%. Sorry, your wrong. Her Soiled Ground also applies spell vamp, as I've noticed it right after I made that post above I played her and saw it. Yes, she does a lot of damage especially if you go full AP. One root can take out almost half health or more (at full level with items). I didn't say that Spell Vamp made her OP. Just that with it and going AP, she can be OP as she can do a lot of damage while healing off of it.
Ale non è male1 votesI misinformed you, some reason I thought it was 20% its actually 15%. Sorry, your wrong. Her Soiled Ground also applies spell vamp, as I've noticed it right after I made that post above I played her and saw it. Yes, she does a lot of damage especially if you go full AP. One root can take out almost half health or more (at full level with items). I didn't say that Spell Vamp made her OP. Just that with it and going AP, she can be OP as she can do a lot of damage while healing off of it.
Ehm, I know Morg's W apply Spell Vamp, but I specified that I was talking about full Spell Vamp being in effect
Morgana apply full Spell Vamp only on her Q
...which was exactly the point discussed when answering to another guy's posts The system, even though isn't that satisfying overall, does a good job in keeping in chech the issue of burst healing, given that there are few istances when champs can get tons of heal upon dealing lot of dmg on single targets. Morg has full Spell Vamp applied only on Q, and really the core of his effects come for the root which allow you to eventually chain your other damage skills, not on Spell Vamp applied on Q itself through its however relevant damage. Morgana being OP does not eventually depend on Spell Vamp related to Q and W, but on the fact that if she can chain her skills she has huge utility for the team and also not shabby damage for herself, not on her becoming unkillable after getting Spell Vamp
FantasySniper1 votesAuto's are very generic and homogenous, with few exceptions, so Lifesteal is easy to balance. Spellvamp? Not so much...
It is designed to be used on high-burst champions that will not maintain their damage throughout a battle, and the most problematic characteristic is that ranged poke and especially AoE can take advantage of it.
and are the main obstacles in balancing it because their kits scale off of the stat harder than anyone else.
To fix it, it has to be given a generalized behavior that not even edge cases can overly take advantage of. There have been several suggestions, but Riot is unlikely to attempt any changes until both obstacles are secured, and they can afford to focus on it for the benefit of a target audience of casters.
Rebonack1 votesI've said it before and I'll say it again.
Spellvamp from items no longer heals you. Instead, it gives you a shield that lasts for 4 seconds or so and stacks akin to Bloodthirster's passive. That solves the 'bursting at full health' issue that makes spellvamp pointless on most Mages. Make it give 1/3rd the value against minions/small monsters and 100% against large/epic monsters and champions.
Done and done.
HadesBlades1 votesMost Champs in the game don't build spell vamp... considering the items that go with, and there are just more bursty items out there. Akali, Vlad, Morde, Ryze even are such a small pool of champs that truly take advantage of it. Look at 2/4 of those champs Akali and Vlad both are squishy and easy to gank pre-six. Vlad himself has horrible team-fighting ability, he can be CC'd quickly or the ADC can burst him quickly, same goes with Akali to a certain degree. Akali isn't like what she use to be you have to play smart, pink wards and CC easily shut her down. Ryze is the only single outlying champ right now that I have a problem with. Considering his rework and his buff through masteries in the utility tree he is almost god-like.
But consider this all in all, about 4 main champs need it. 4 Champs don't effect the meta in anyway and don't do well vs tanks, that being said these 4 champs also don't get competitive play at all.
The Awaken1 votesi feel like you should keep spell vamp or put it as a passive on champs
The Awaken1 votesbecause i love vlad and akail
Meep Man1 votesFrom the grave
