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Veigar, Riot can you help him?

SirPacifista·2/19/2016, 4:51:58 PM·2 votes·992 views

Do you (#Riot) have any plans for our cute little master of doom?

I mean he clearly is VERY BAD off right now. He has a winrate from ~46.57%(changes every few days) (ok up from 45% 2 patches ago, still quite bad), which alone is is leading to the conclussion that there is a Problem with him. He is heavly focused on lategame, in a Meta which lets games end very early on, even under 30 min. (if i remember correctly) His flat damage was reduced a few patches ago, while nerfing 90% of all Ap items, which made him even weaker than probably intended.

What i am asking is, what can we do to improve Veigar so that he is fun again to play and play against? (YES BOTH WAYS)

i will try to make a list which should guide people through the problems of Veigar.

I would propose that his passive should get reworked, since its right now quite unnecessary, since you get the same ability from Masteries and the same Mana regen from items like item 3174item 3003 item 3165 as you got before any patches, which leaves Veigar with far more Mana than he ever needed. The change in the passive could be anything which improves his playstyle further, like

  1. If Veigar kills a creeps he will reduce the current cooldown of all of his abilities by 1 (or 2 sec).
  2. Veigar gains increased MR as he gets more AP (since he is the anti mage)
  3. "Veigars abilities are too strong to notice the tenacity of enemies, tenacity has no effect on Veigars abilities".
  4. Veigars abilities gain special attributes while used inside his E- Event horizon or
  5. Every 5 casts will cause Veigars next ability to appear instantly (his W or E)

i just thought of these, so of course arent they perfect, but its clear what i want to say with it. It should improve his playstyle.

Now to Veigars Q It does have a lot to do with the skill of the enemy and of Veigar:

1.Veigar only gets farm if he can effectivly harass the minions, be in range and doesnt get harassed to strong. -1.While the enemy can interrupt his farming by playing agressively, which makes this quite balanced.

2.If Veigar wants to hit the enemy with his Q, he needs to predict where his enemy is going (or fire it in the direction if the enemy is close) -2. The enemy could also use the minions to block the Q completly, or simple evade it.

this makes his Q a great ability for both him as his enemies alike, since it does require skill from both parties.

Now to Veigar Problem zone Veigar's main issue right now is his W in combination with his E.

First to the W:

  1. Its a great ability for wave clearing, since its aoe and does alot of damage -1. If its used for wave clearing, then his Q farming is greatly reduced -1. It is easily evaded by any enemy, who is not stunned, rooted or slowed without escape ability (since oyu can see where it will land.

This makes the skill quite one-sided, if the enemy isnt stunned, rooted or slowed, then he will escape the ability with ease, which makes this skill very ineffective against player who pay attention for that ability, but more for that later on.

Now his E, the horror for most people.

It has obvious flaws and strenghs.

  1. Huge radius, great for trapping enemies, long stun -1 Only the edge does stun. -1 delayed, so easily predictable, which causes the stun to rarely proc against good player (only if the pay no attention to it, or dont know what to do when its used) -1 instantly vanished (doesnt proc stun), if Veigar dies while casting it, even through it appears, which makes it less helpful for the team (rare, but still makes a differenz) -1 it can be flashed out, summoner 4 and many abilities like these from Ezreal Fizz Gangplank Kassadin Katarina Lissandra MasterYi Shaco Talon Vladimir Yasuo Zed ignore it completly, which makes the skill completly useless against these champions (excepts making them use the ability, which have a low cooldown. -1. it does not protect Veigar from being killed by the enemy inside the event horizon. -1. Its doesnt mean that his other abilities will actually connect with the enemy. ----- for example W can be easily evaded, since there is enough room to flee ----- Also his Q can be evaded (harder to do), but can also be blocked by minions (easy to do)

This makes this skill very rewarding if the enemy actually get hit by the stun, but this happens very rarely, sicne it depends completly on the enemy to not run into the marked position. And even through it hits, you know that its not completly your own earning, the enemy did made a big mistake if he got hit by it.

This makes the skill good to play against, since it can be easily evaded, and it still gives you a good chance to kill people from within the event horizion while trapped. Veigar on the other hand needs the kill to land his onther abilities, which makes him and easy target if the stun does not connect since this means most of the times that his W will also not hit the target. This leaves Veigar with 2 choices, flee instanty from the battle, or try to kills him with q+r.

This synergy needs to be reworked, since its makes Veigar very unreliable in important situations and makes it completly depended on the skill of the enemy NOT Veigars.

I will skip his R, since it is clear what it can(do alot of damage while having high cd) and can not (hit Fizz or someone with item 3157 )

What does hurt Veigar the most? He can be counterplayed in three differnent ways.

  1. Counterpick Yasuo Zed SwainTalon Vladimir Katarina Ezreal Galio Fizz etc. which greatly reduces the gameplay and gameflow for Veigar, sicne these champions can, without having more skill than the Veigar player, defeat Veigar by their unique abilities, which makes Veigar literally only an nuisance for them, not even slightly a threat.
  2. Outplay (?) him by not getting stunned. If the enemy isnt hit by the stun then he is able to easily vade the coming W and if minion are present even his Q, which leaves Veigar extremly vunerable, since he cant win a fight with his R alone (which can be negated by abilities or items)
  3. Items. If the enemy is NOT building full ap, then veigar does have a huge problem. If the Player is Ap, then item 3001 item 3027 item 3102item 3116 will make then nearly unkillable, even for a few Veigar. If they are AD, then item 3137 item 3155 item 3083item 3156 item 3742 will make them unvunerbale for Veigar player. And tenacity even makes the stun far shorter than without, which makes the fragile slow Veigar an very easy target.

What would Veigar now really help?

There are many ways to help him, not just one. i dont have a very good idea what you could to improve his gameplay except reverting changes back

with giving his abilities more damage/utility while increasing the mana costs and the cooldown consideratly. This would make Veigar more of the old burst champ, while making his mana scarce and it would take him time to come back into the fight.

It would also be great if

But i hope that you Riot, or anyone of the helpfull people below have ideas how Veigar could become a normal champion like in the beginning of last year again, which makes him fun to play and play against, especially in the higher elo.

Have a nice day guys, and give many comments and ideas so that riot gets (perhaps) an insperation on how to restore Veigar.

Ps: Dont flame, or say he is op because he had X stacks after Y minutes in game Z...

Read the WHOLE upper section before making comments.[slayer-jinx-wink]

13 Comments

MisterHealYoGirl2/19/2016, 5:02:10 PM2 votes

Honestly, you said it yourself: Veigar's weakness is due to the metagame, not his own balance state. That's just how a meta IS: certain champions become weaker and others are stronger. Eventually, the meta will shift and Veigar will become stronger. If any changes to Veigar are incoming, it'll be a part of the immobile mage class update; something like the changes Ezreal or Twitch got.

CrimsonReaps2/19/2016, 5:05:22 PM1 votes

I've only played veigar once or twice recently but I've found that hes actually pretty strong, The meta has shifted to many ad assassins im able to just farm up in lane at a safe distance because they fear my e, And when it comes to teamfights i can take there assassin and normally one hit them just by pressing R, I think you Make a valid argument, It goes both ways but I've found that he counters almost every popular champs right now, The only assassin I've ever seen him having problems with is zed, because his ult can juke veigars and his w by-passes the stun. IF i said anything wrong here please do correct me.

Calabok2/22/2016, 11:52:04 PM1 votes

I think he's fine. Leave him be

spirit cooking2/24/2016, 6:34:26 PM1 votes

His R can be clunky and I find myself trying to use it too fast in a combo and it never goes off. Bronze 5 feels.

DeloricVI2/24/2016, 6:42:16 PM1 votes

I personally like this thread, except I don't think you give Dark Matter enough credit. You'd be surprise the early game poke you can get when an assassin that isn't Fizz goes to cs. Most people reflexively move back towards their tower when they see a skill shot, so a lot of players sometimes take this as poke damage, and can be great for punishing people at lower levels. Even so, it is kind of underpowered, because against someone who's about average skill level, they will dodge it every time/not put themselves in a good position to be hit with it. That is unless you want to use its massive range to keep someone from trying to escape...

i.e. low health champion running straight towards tower, place Dark Matter in front of them, so they either have to go towards you or take the Dark Matter to the face, which is likely to kill them.

I think this Assassin meta is what's really messing with him; he's pretty low mobility, and champions like Talon can burst him down under tower because his cc is unreliable. Champions like Zed just deal too much damage to him when they tower dive at level 6, so unless you have Zhonia's, you're fucked. AP champions don't really have any tools against assassins that you'll be able to buy when you need them; not to mention, Seeker's Armguard is just about worthless to a mage right now due to its already pretty bad armor rating getting nerfed by 15 armor. That is, assuming you're going mid against an AD assassin.

Not to mention Assassins how all have a mini Zed ult with that new dusk blade thing, and Hexdrinker is pretty cheap.

That's also to say that Veigar doesn't really have a good keystone mastery as well... I mean, sure take death fire touch because it scales better than thunderlord's decree the higher your AP is, but people barely even notice DFT in their damage output anyway. Taking Thunderlord's puts more eggs in the "only worth a damn if I land my stun" basket... I've had more success with stormraider's surge than either of those. I mean, mid game on a squishy target you can deal 30% easy, sometimes just off 1 q which gives you some valuable chase potential if there's no one around, or some valuable disengage for when you realized you fucked up.

Barring that, nothing really fits on Veigar; even with stormrader's, his mobility issues aren't really "Solved" because it relies on his ability to land his skills, i.e. could be considered stun dependent.

Maybe all mages need to shift the meta back to where mages are on even footing with assassins is a new item, which I hope we get in the new mage update. I mean, it's only fair since AD assassins just got a new item, that's pretty strong to boot, and AP champions only have 1 option against assassins, where assassins can buy DuskBlade to go offensive with armor penn, Yommuu's for movement speed and by effect dive potential, or Maw of Malamortius for when they realized that their enemy actually can do some damage, and you want to make them pretty much worthless.

Who do you think will finish their item first? Probably the assassin because their composite items for their countermeasures, i.e. hexdrinker or quicksilver sash, are all much more useful than the one item that mages have against AD Assassins, which is seeker's armguard, which is, as we've already said, pretty shit right now.