Farming junglers are worthless to play

jak kam··49 votes·19,811 views

Hey, because my most played champs are Yi and Jax (with farming style) in jungle, I realized in my games many times I have shutdown just because of farming better and then enemies take this shutdown, it means basically more CS that you build up means nothing, like im yi 0/0/1 with 70cs and enemy is xin with 0/0/6 with 20 cs and I have 600gold shutdown, enemy adc takes it and goes so massive, what is the point of playing farming jungler and counter jungle enemy with this bounty system ? I didnt want to make post because someone maybe argue you are in gold2 but now in NA LCS same happened (karthus vs lee sin, teams : fox vs ggs)

add this to XP nerfs that makes farming junglers again weaker (because they cant duel and scale to late game like before) and red smite nerfs, there is 0 reason to play a farming jungler unless you want lose your game.

82 Comments

Frosted Tips22 votes

Honestly if Jungle gets nerfed again people will probably start playing duo top. Top laner with a support will be more effective than a jungler.

Beerstein5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frosted Tips,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MsrThKuu,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-01-28T01:53:03.413+0000)

Honestly if Jungle gets nerfed again people will probably start playing duo top. Top laner with a support will be more effective than a jungler.

Start? I'm doing only autofill, have gotten top 0 times, mid 0 times, support 7, jg 7, adc 4. But more and more JG as time goes, everyone's already moving out. Support is more popular and powerful than JG already, will only get worse as more and more move out of JG.

If I weren't doing full autofill this season I'd pick anything but JG. TBH I might manual rotate just to screw up matchmaking more, Riot deserves it with the current state of the jungle.

Frosted Tips2 votes

I don't think you quite understand what I said. Like 2 top, 1 mid, 2 bot. That is what I meant. So no jungler in the game just a support top with smite to secure objectives.

Beerstein2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frosted Tips,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MsrThKuu,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-01-28T02:06:34.061+0000)

I don't think you quite understand what I said. Like 2 top, 1 mid, 2 bot. That is what I meant. So no jungler in the game just a support top with smite to secure objectives.

Ah I tried going full PVE, seemed to work. First time Karthus, literally just bought him...

https://i.imgur.com/EPQzj0Q.png

I'll be honest I just never left the jungle. PVE new meta. #25stackmejais

saltran3 votes

You are doing it right, Karthus jungle is really strong, I'm even banning him now.

BigFBear5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frosted Tips,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MsrThKuu,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-01-28T01:53:03.413+0000)

Honestly if Jungle gets nerfed again people will probably start playing duo top. Top laner with a support will be more effective than a jungler.

could be interesting

then top- and bot-support would take smite and roam their half of the jungle from time to time. Just fast clear and back to their lane :D

Alzon1 votes

Double funnel strat

DaBooosh7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frosted Tips,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MsrThKuu,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-01-28T01:53:03.413+0000)

Honestly if Jungle gets nerfed again people will probably start playing duo top. Top laner with a support will be more effective than a jungler.

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Frog goes moo2 votes

shhhhh no one expects the sneak clover

BestPudgeNA15 votes

I think item 3107 Olaf being meta in pro play says everything about the absolute shit state of JG as a role.

INB4 somebody that overextends and feeds every game tells me about how JG is a high "impact" role.

General Esdeath 3 votes

No way, please tell me this is a meme. I refuse to believe that was a thing. You must be confusing "meta" with "someone did this one time and won". Please GOD PLEASE!

BestPudgeNA8 votes

{quoted}

No way, please tell me this is a meme. I refuse to believe that was a thing. You must be confusing "meta" with "someone did this one time and won". Please GOD PLEASE!

I think you're confusing once with 11 out of the last 12 times he has been picked in the JG the only game he didn't go Redemption the player went Locket instead so not much difference.

General Esdeath 2 votes

I'm not watching any pro scene stuff because school just started up.

Has it really been 11 out of 12 games?!?

Blackfin979 votes

Honestly speaking, bot lane is far higher impact then jungle.

I've won games with a bad jungler, but I am yet to win a game where opponent ADC goes 6-0 by 10 mins.

saltran5 votes

2/10 quality bait

Blackfin976 votes

You're just a biased person who likes to bash on jungle judging by your posts here. I can ignore you.

saltran3 votes

I'm biased of course, just as every single person that plays this game and talks about balance on the Gameplay Boards.

We should be celebrating the nerfs to the most impactful role in the game, not feeling bad for junglers right now. But somehow that's the popular narrative on the Boards, I didn't knew this place was full of Jungle mains.

Z3Sleeper5 votes

Yeah I’d love to celebrate that if it actually was true. The junglers that had the biggest impact before this patch are still having the most impact (almost unnoticeable difference).

The only junglers really affected by this are farming junglers. Yknow, the ones that don’t gank 24/7?

So until the level 2 -> gank until game ends junglers get dicked, we got nothin to celebrate.

Nevrankroaton1 votes

Many jungler pick supportive item... Tank would take knight vow, freaking hell some nocturne in pro plays take knight vow. It is the same in high challenger...

It always have been this way, you know why? Because it is better to enhance your carry/team than buy damage items and not bring that much to the team.

Why do some assassin go GA as a third item (outside boot) in pro-plays? Because you have all the damage you need, but GA make you able to take risks and be more difficult to punish/ask for more time/ressources that the ennemy tema don't have or can't afford.

Olaf always buy an itemisation that help his item/enhance his diving capacity. Gold didn't get fewer...

BestPudgeNA2 votes

{quoted}

Many jungler pick supportive item... Tank would take knight vow, freaking hell some nocturne in pro plays take knight vow. It is the same in high challenger...

It always have been this way, you know why? Because it is better to enhance your carry/team than buy damage items and not bring that much to the team.

Why do some assassin go GA as a third item (outside boot) in pro-plays? Because you have all the damage you need, but GA make you able to take risks and be more difficult to punish/ask for more time/ressources that the ennemy tema don't have or can't afford.

Olaf always buy an itemisation that help his item/enhance his diving capacity. Gold didn't get fewer...

It hasn't always been this way. Gold income has gotten worse in compared to laners. If Redemption made sense for Olaf as an item Top lane Olaf would be picking it up, but it doesn't and they don't.

420 grams11 votes

Not taking risks and being inactive on the map shouldnt be more rewarded. Auto winning because you picked a certain champion and defeated all the AI jungle monsters multiple times isn't very fun for anyone except maybe the player on the champ.

Aseraan6 votes

[deleted]

saltran1 votes

and my reatrded laners either 1 is a feeding pice of trash or b a feeding pice of trash...

Wow, I had comments banned by mods way less harsh than this one.

Aseraan1 votes

Ahh yes sometimes it gets out of the zone BUT i was pointing out later in the same comment its not always that. So pls dont just highlight 1 line of my whole comment or atleast seriusly not just one line thank you.

saltran1 votes

Huh It's just that I hate the inconsistency of the Boards mods, they delete comments as "dae duskblade bad give me upvotes" for "being a jerk" and then are fine with comments as yours.

Other time I was banned 2 weeks here for saying that maybe someome that posts non stop on the Boards with a fake account is a coward, so the "say something bad + add that it's not always/or that is maybe" dont work always.

Aseraan1 votes

Well ye but this is pretty tame comming from me i sayed worst things on boards.

SEKAI16 votes

[{quoted}](name=420 grams,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MsrThKuu,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-28T00:48:16.044+0000)

Not taking risks and being inactive on the map shouldnt be more rewarded. Auto winning because you picked a certain champion and defeated all the AI jungle monsters multiple times isn't very fun for anyone except maybe the player on the champ.

Let's talk theory first:

Ganking jungle playstyle has the following advantages and disadvantages:

  • Pro - Turret and map pressure; laners getting fed if gank successful; may opening opportunities for large jg objectives
  • Con - Jungler losing farm (lose on the farming game, or get counter-jungled) and may be losing on xp growth; lost is amplified if gank is unsuccessful via opportunity cost as well as perhaps getting killed

Ganking jungle goes for a higher risk for a higher reward, so to speak.

Farming jungle playstyle is the opposite of the above. The jungler should have a farm and level advantage against the opponent's jungler, is safer to scale but also less ramp in scale, but significantly lose the map presence game.

Another major factor is that farming junglers are usually weak in early game, making them very vulnerable to early invades by gank junglers, who are usually strong in early game.

Farming jungle has lower risk, assuming not invaded, but also lower reward. So even in theory, the scale is already tipping against farming jungle in a way due to the factor of their often vulnerability to invasion, though may be justified given farm junglers tend to have very strong late-game as a win condition.

This seem like a nice distinction and list of advantages and trade-offs, at least in theory.

......

In practice however, Riot makes sure the ganking jungler can have the cake and eat it too, and farming jungler is literally just playing to lose. Catch-up xp, bounty rework, and all the other things.

A ganking jungler stays equal or even ahead of farming jungler in xp, and plays with also equal the risk but significantly higher reward due to the significantly reduced opportunity cost of farming but the advantage of map presence is entirely intact. And then the bounty overkills it by actively PUNISHING farming, as if doing something what it is in your power to stay ahead in the game can be "wrong" and punished accordingly.

Farming jungle is thus just a straight up inferior choice, akin to playing with a handicap.

In a dumb world that is also a vacuum, it may seem to even the dumbest of even this dumb world that enforcing a gank-based jungle is a good idea. "More fun" they say. But ofc, in our still pretty dumb, but fortunately a little smarter world we can see a little dissonance that

You know...

#That LoL is a roster based game?

Did Riot just forget that? That LoL has a roster and different champs do different things?

Farm junglers don't go into hiding and farm because they choose to, but because that's often the only way they actually contribute to the game as just who they are? AND THEY ARE PAYING THE OPPORTUNITY COST OF NOT GANKING anyway; it's almost if ganking and farming approach have their bloom and glooms of their own already.

All this """design""" does is flat out removing some of the champs from ever being played beyond Silver and low Gold. So much for the fucking play style diversity in a fucking strategy game, eh?

There is NO reason in any sort of balance why the scale is so extremely tipped towards ganking jungler beyond some extremely arbitrary lip service preaching about utter meaningless arguments like ""fun"".

Less options is NOT more fun.

DeusVult1 votes

this is true, but for certain champs, if the farming jungle mechanic wasnt as low of a reward as it currently is, it breaks them.

If being able to farm the jungle was buffed back to what it was about 2 seasons ago, then farm heavy champs who become very powerful after 2 or so items begin to have a "low risk, moderate to high reward" play pattern. For instance, OP stated that he plays Yi and Jax as farm heavy junglers. If jungle was buffed so that it was viable to farm for 20 minutes and then come out and start merking laners because you are even on items and XP, then Yi and Jax would be broken.

Not only this but from a laners perspective, having a jungler who primarily only farms is such a let down. It basically comes down to you playing safe and hoping not to lose lane or get dove for the first 20 minutes, because their will be 0 support from your jungler. If you do this well and go somewhat even, then your jungler comes out of his farm fest and wins you the game. If you or one of the other laners start feeding though, then the enemy snowball a lead during the 4v5 and start taking your jungle camps, which slows the progression of the afk jungler. So either way of what actually happens during a game involving a farm heavy jungler, it feels like crap to the laner

Meritas1 votes

{quoted}

Let's talk theory first:

Ganking jungle playstyle has the following advantages and disadvantages:

  • Pro - Turret and map pressure; laners getting fed if gank successful; may opening opportunities for large jg objectives
  • Con - Jungler losing farm (lose on the farming game, or get counter-jungled) and may be losing on xp growth; lost is amplified if gank is unsuccessful via opportunity cost as well as perhaps getting killed

Ganking jungle goes for a higher risk for a higher reward, so to speak.

Farming jungle playstyle is the opposite of the above. The jungler should have a farm and level advantage against the opponent's jungler, is safer to scale but also less ramp in scale, but significantly lose the map presence game.

Another major factor is that farming junglers are usually weak in early game, making them very vulnerable to early invades by gank junglers, who are usually strong in early game.

Farming jungle has lower risk, assuming not invaded, but also lower reward. So even in theory, the scale is already tipping against farming jungle in a way due to the factor of their often vulnerability to invasion, though may be justified given farm junglers tend to have very strong late-game as a win condition.

This seem like a nice distinction and list of advantages and trade-offs, at least in theory.

......

In practice however, Riot makes sure the ganking jungler can have the cake and eat it too, and farming jungler is literally just playing to lose. Catch-up xp, bounty rework, and all the other things.

A ganking jungler stays equal or even ahead of farming jungler in xp, and plays with also equal the risk but significantly higher reward due to the significantly reduced opportunity cost of farming but the advantage of map presence is entirely intact. And then the bounty overkills it by actively PUNISHING farming, as if doing something what it is in your power to stay ahead in the game can be "wrong" and punished accordingly.

Farming jungle is thus just a straight up inferior choice, akin to playing with a handicap.

In a dumb world that is also a vacuum, it may seem to even the dumbest of even this dumb world that enforcing a gank-based jungle is a good idea. "More fun" they say. But ofc, in our still pretty dumb, but fortunately a little smarter world we can see a little dissonance that

You know...

#That LoL is a roster based game?

Did Riot just forget that? That LoL has a roster and different champs do different things?

Farm junglers don't go into hiding and farm because they choose to, but because that's often the only way they actually contribute to the game as just who they are? AND THEY ARE PAYING THE OPPORTUNITY COST OF NOT GANKING anyway; it's almost if ganking and farming approach have their bloom and glooms of their own already.

All this """design""" does is flat out removing some of the champs from ever being played beyond Silver and low Gold. So much for the fucking play style diversity in a fucking strategy game, eh?

There is NO reason in any sort of balance why the scale is so extremely tipped towards ganking jungler beyond some extremely arbitrary lip service preaching about utter meaningless arguments like ""fun"".

Less options is NOT more fun.

How do you balance farming junglers between low and high level of play then? There's a pretty serious reason why they got nerfed, given the opportunity high-level of play would always go for the less risky option if the payoff is equal.

Bob the Toastr6 votes

Honestly the farming bounty is absolutely stupid.

Neptunia xoxo5 votes

Good. Maybe pick something that doesn't afk farm all game [sg-ahri-1]

RekSai CoffeeCo2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Neptunia xoxo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MsrThKuu,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-01-28T05:05:15.419+0000)

Good. Maybe pick something that doesn't afk farm all game [sg-ahri-1]

Did you know that jungle actually has to kill the camps for experience unlike laners?

Neptunia xoxo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=RekSai CoffeeCo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MsrThKuu,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2019-01-28T14:13:28.555+0000)

Did you know that jungle actually has to kill the camps for experience unlike laners?

durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr but you don't spend the entire game sitting in jungle doing nothing. Now you must contribute to the actual game to do anything and this change does not really bother top jungler players because that's literally how the game has always been where if you don't attempt to pressure lanes or objectives and you sit in jungle farming all game then you WILL fall behind if the enemy jungle actually does something. The only problem I see with this are jungle champions like Master Yi getting screwed over but honestly that champion or champions simular to him need reworks very badly.

AIQ1 votes

A Farming Jungler that does not gank is making a mistake. Opportunities should arise whether counter ganking or ganking yourself, as all players make punishable mistakes.

I primarily play Shyvana though after the Jugnle nerf and losing 5 in a row I decided to switch it up for a bit. Planning on playing more today lol since I already crossed my threshold so that I can try some different routes.

Yes, farming junglers KP is lower than most, but their map control should be MUCH higher. When I do get a kill it generally turns into an objective. If they gank and my laners have successfully warded them off, then I usually am the one that punishes the jungler by stealing his camps and buffs. True this is not as "interactive", but it's certainly not mindless.

If you watch pro games, you'll notice gank count is actually very low compared to solo Q the reason why is those lanes are much safer. The reason they don't pick farming junglers is 2 big reasons.

  1. Potential to gank
  2. Dueling ability Without these 2 things the enemy jungler could quickly take over with the communication and vision afforded to him.

Ganking 24/7 is actually a "bad strategy" and farming is a good one. However, the risk/reward is greater, but in solo Q it's great because everyone thinks they are faker making it easy to gank them. Level 2 ganks should NEVER work, but they do because lanes do not respect potential ganks, just ones hey see.

TLDR: farmers shouldn't spend all their time in jungle, and gankers should be bad if players would stop being over aggro.

Velasan4 votes

You are right actually.. the system and the way the jg works right now doesn't make a lot of sense. They make objectives worth more than teammates, then they start talking about how junglers are too powerful. Well, yeah... cause you can give your whole team regen/damage/speed/tower taking power from dragons by being the jungler. It's not just the ganking, people always ganked, Kindred back during her release used to gank from red directly to mid at level 2 all the time.

Jungle right now is where support had been in years past. Under powered and not fun to play. Funny thing is none of these changes even help the fact that they are still central to actually winning a game while not actually having much solo strength, because it's still up to the jungler to secure objectives even if they land up 3 levels behind the rest of their team and unable to do much else.

Naon3 votes

The JG is an absolute joke right now. The dev team doesn't want people just ganking the entire time... so they punished assassins by forcing them to get kills and rewarding farming jgers for farming while assassins simply had to clear a little and gank gank gank.

Then the dev team said... no... we want people to be more involved and gank so lets just push them outta being any form of a farming JGer. There is VERY few farming jgers who get away with farming now and now the jg has stagnated once again.

Basically the balance team has no clue what they are doing... as it's been shown again and I guess they rather people just pick 2 supports in game and got 2 1 2, because at this point JG is not even worth the dang time and it seems the dev team is trying really hard to just dumpster anyone who likes jging while guising it as "balancing"

Blackfin972 votes

That's one reason why I now play Jax top lane instead of jungle. The longer the game drags the lower jungle exp gets.

If you're playing a late game jungler like Yi, you're going to be hard pressed to make very precise decisions as falling behind will make it absolutely impossible for you to catch up should your opponent have an early game jungler such as Lee, Xin, or Warwick.

Nevrankroaton2 votes

Because the bounties are supposed to allow for any team to have windows of reward if you kill someone who is ahead so the lead isn't that difficult to get back to. And just to be very honest, there isn't much skill to clear your jungle camps and go back and do it again and maybe take some Cs of a lane if your laner backed and asked you. It isn't like your lead is made by perfect CS ing or insane macro/micro play.

AFK farming always have been the fake messiah of the jungle, everytime it was possible to do so, the meta and champions abusing it proved it was toxic and boring to play against.

RekSai CoffeeCo3 votes

{quoted}

Because the bounties are supposed to allow for any team to have windows of reward if you kill someone who is ahead so the lead isn't that difficult to get back to. And just to be very honest, there isn't much skill to clear your jungle camps and go back and do it again and maybe take some Cs of a lane if your laner backed and asked you. It isn't like your lead is made by perfect CS ing or insane macro/micro play.

AFK farming always have been the fake messiah of the jungle, everytime it was possible to do so, the meta and champions abusing it proved it was toxic and boring to play against.

Frankly I would like to see laners only get experience on the lane minions they last hit, Lets see Laners stay even in experience with jungle even with jungle so far gutted as now(Junglers have to kill their camps for experience while laners can afk farm for experience (gold is different story) but experience you don't have to kill a single lane minion).

Nevrankroaton2 votes

Bro, no flame but...

Imagine ANY lane where you get hard bullied/countered.

Zoned of CS mean loosing exp too? You will make snowballing got beyond the roof.

saltran1 votes

Then supps would be level 1 for the whole game lmao.

Honestly, the Boards jungle crew has made me apreciate the Jungle nerfs even more, thank you guys.

14daysuspensionk2 votes

Yet people can still be worth gold or get a good grade solely because of CS. Someone ELSE on my team (I had the best kda on my team) got MVP just because they had 10 more fucking CS than me.

Davaken2 votes

Karthus does nothing but farm and is really strong atm. A few other farm champions out there like Rengar and Shaco. Most farm junglers and tanks are kinda bad, but if you want to play one you still have options.

Tundra Hunter2 votes

Yeah I am sad that jungler is the new support. Seriously in competitive and ranked, junglers have the same gold and experience as support. That is, 2 or 3 levels below the adc, mid and top, and 2 or 3 items below. It really feels unsatisfying as a jungler... we used to be like solo laners.

chide da jungler2 votes

What grade do they teach kids to use periods? Or, that sentences start with capital letters? WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO US!?

OHminus1 votes

Honestly I don't think Jax is a bad ganker, you can probably go E->Q and then start ganking from there.

Jesus is Savior1 votes

Why are you using red smite? You should have switched to blue smite this patch. Red smite is garbage.

  • I am also a Yi main.
Corvo13151 votes

Broski, stop playing a farming jungler then, from the sounds of it you are just wanting to afk farm until late game where you can be a hyper carry simply off of items, Like you said, MasterYi and Jax as well as champs like Kayle can just afk farm and at 30 min walk out of the jungle and solo win. But with the recent changes, and with the higher emphasis on team play you gotta start working with your team, play a ganking champion who can act in the early and mid game. Start ganking and working with your team, getting your team ahead and securing kills is more important than simply afk farming.

Fear the Kayn1 votes

Shyvana is pretty much pick/ban right now. And she's the epitome of farming junglers.

If anything farming junglers are doing exceedingly well this patch for the most part.

Frog goes moo1 votes

Both yi and jax are actually doing pretty good in stats right now. Maybe you should incorporate more ganks into your playstyle?

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