If you think Junglers being forced to rush a 450g item is a problem....

VoidInsanity·Mar 1, 2015·3 votes·1,326 views

...then ask yourself - why don't you think that them having to take smite as a summoner spell is a problem?

The 450g Hunter's Machete is just Smite 2 : Electric Boogaloo.

You may remember me from complaining about the problems of the Jungle back in Season 3 being based on Smite existence. I said back then that Riots refusal to acknowledge the situation will cause them to keep rebalancing the jungle every season and fuck it and junglers up every season in the process.

There is no difference between being forced to take Smite and being forced to rush Machete. Both are things junglers are forced into doing. If you really want jungle diversity you need to tackle the root of the problem. Machete isn't the root, it is a mere branch.

12 Comments

Only Play DariusMar 1, 20152 votes

I don't mind the jungling being smite and machete based, because for season 5 they have given smite late game usefulness by allowing you to smite champion, and the items that build out of machete are extremely gold efficient and available only to the dedicated jungler.

What irritates me is the nonstop nerfs to smite (reduced slows and damage to champions, gutted range) and the repeated nerfs to the machete (450 upgrade, now costs money to swap between machete colors).

Wish riot would just stop with the nerfs to junglers.

VoidInsanityMar 1, 20151 votes

If you want them to stop the nerfs to junglers, you got to remove smite. Junglers cannot be balanced while smite exists.

Only Play DariusMar 1, 20151 votes

???????

Care to explain?

VoidInsanityMar 1, 20151 votes

It is a DPS steroid that scales independently of the champion it is on. Other champions benefit less/more from smite than others and then get overnerfed/overbuffed as a result to put them on par with other jungle champions. Such alterations also impact the champion as a whole outside the jungle it is impossible to balance. This is due to riots own incompetence of putting a barrier between the lane and the jungle, that barrier being smite.

While that barrier exists the jungle and lanes are two separate entities making the balance of the two combined impossible as changes to one effect the other in a different way. Prime example of this is the "Sustain Creep" in top lane of previous seasons, they needed it to jungle but the second they took it out of the jungle - balance issues.

ArknaMar 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

It is a DPS steroid that scales independently of the champion it is on. Other champions benefit less/more from smite than others and then get overnerfed/overbuffed as a result to put them on par with other jungle champions. Such alterations also impact the champion as a whole outside the jungle it is impossible to balance. This is due to riots own incompetence of putting a barrier between the lane and the jungle, that barrier being smite.

While that barrier exists the jungle and lanes are two separate entities making the balance of the two combined impossible as changes to one effect the other in a different way. Prime example of this is the "Sustain Creep" in top lane of previous seasons, they needed it to jungle but the second they took it out of the jungle - balance issues.

The barrier is intentional. If you remove the dps barrier separating the jungle and laning, then the jungle becomes a supplementary gold source for laners, rather than a fourth source of gold. Then you could go with buffing junglers, which will result in most of them being taken into lane. Or introduce gold efficient items, which results in the same thing.

The problems you mention stem from the seperation between laning and jungling being imperfect. The smite-only jungle items are a much better direction that your suggestion.

VoidInsanityMar 1, 20151 votes

The barrier is intentional. If you remove the dps barrier separating the jungle and laning, then the jungle becomes a supplementary gold source for laners

False. You remove the barrier and Junglers and Laners can switch at will, new tactics and strategies can be developed to take advantage of this. Problem stems from Riot designing champions as junglers and not champions with the ability to jungle and their inability to trust their playbase with anything more complex than the established 5 roles. By forcing players to need a jungler, to need an ADC, to need a support, etc every game they believe they can balance the game. This is why they buffed towers when LCS teams decided to start doing 2v1 lanes, to stop that them from doing that. Not because it was abusive, it was because it was new.

However this direction is also false. Diversity comes from players coming up with strategies then counter strategies, so on so forth. The current way the game is balanced this never happens and never will. All that happens is "Who is currently the best at X, let's play X" and then X gets nerfed, so players move onto Y or wait for a random Z to be buffed. So on so forth. Smite is the barrier that allows this shit to happen, it needs to go.

ArknaMar 1, 20152 votes

{quoted} All that happens is "Who is currently the best at X, let's play X" and then X gets nerfed, so players move onto Y or wait for a random Z to be buffed. So on so forth. Smite is the barrier that allows this shit to happen, it needs to go.

Except smite isn't that barrier, math is. At competitive levels of play, the duo lane/2 solo lanes/jungler is played soley because of math. Stat scaling is multiplicative, meaning more gold on one person generally provides more to your team than the same amount of gold split across your team. Since offensive stats scale harder than defensive one, piling as much gold as possible on your carries will always be the most efficient strategy.

If you make the jungle as attractive to laners as lane farm, the most efficient strategy will be to pile the gold onto carries. And, as has been the case since the games inception, lower tiers of play will mirror the higher ones.

VoidInsanityMar 1, 20151 votes

At competitive levels of play, the duo lane/2 solo lanes/jungler is played soley because of math.

And that is also the reason junglers take smite and junglers existence is enforced. If they had the option not to, they wouldn't take it as it'd expand their strategic options - Like in DotA. You might even see teams experiment with no jungler at all. However while smite exists and the jungle is balanced around barriers like smite or machete it will never happen.

ArknaMar 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And that is also the reason junglers take smite and junglers existence is enforced. If they had the option not to, they wouldn't take it as it'd expand their strategic options - Like in DotA. You might even see teams experiment with no jungler at all. However while smite exists and the jungle is balanced around barriers like smite or machete it will never happen.

There are some pretty big differences between League and Dota that make this work for Dota. While lots of things play into this, the biggest are strong spells keeping low income heroes relevant, strong active items, and, besides Agi carries, a lack of multiplicative stats.

The first point is fairly self explanatory. The stronger active items means that there are some pretty big power spikes in Dota that just don't exist in League. Blink dagger earth-shaker jumps to mind as an excellent example. The last point is quite a big deal. In League, all champions have multiplicative offensive scaling via some combination of penetration, cdr, crit, attack speed, and ad/ap. Defensive stats have, functionally, 2. Health, and the relevant resistance. This means that a Lina or QoP won't scale as hard with gold as a Leblanc or Zed, so giving up the 2250 gold for Earthshaker to get a blink dagger is less of a detriment to their performance than an LB or Zed giving up 2k for a Malphite to get a Spectre's Cowl and mobi's.

ErockandrollMar 1, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MqoihAEE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-01T11:11:50.384+0000)

I don't mind the jungling being smite and machete based, because for season 5 they have given smite late game usefulness by allowing you to smite champion, and the items that build out of machete are extremely gold efficient and available only to the dedicated jungler.

What irritates me is the nonstop nerfs to smite (reduced slows and damage to champions, gutted range) and the repeated nerfs to the machete (450 upgrade, now costs money to swap between machete colors).

Wish riot would just stop with the nerfs to junglers.

We can agree that not all the Machete are balanced with Each other. But to Riot's credit, I don't think, swapping to the better upgrade, before finalizing your Jungle path, really does anything to make the behind Jungle items better.

As for why Riot is balancing the Jungle into nerfs. Well for starters, Balancing into nerfs is kinda what they have always done, regardless of what they balance. But despite the fact that many people are off put by the jungle changes, people find room to complain about J4, lee, vi, etc. all of which took a familiar style of Jungle paths. (stalker's blade, warrior)

And all that said and done, it's not entirely nerfs either. The new Cinder Hulk Enchantment will buff tanks Tremendously.

ForPortalMar 1, 20151 votes

I don't like that change, but at least it's reliable - if you want a jungling item you know at 0:00 that you can get it. A second-rate jungler doesn't know whether they'll be able to afford the upgrade to tier 2 before second back, and if they don't, it's crippling.

TalamareMar 1, 20151 votes

Machete isn't a branch of the problem

In Riot's eyes, Smite and Machete are the root of the solution Riot wants jungle "diversity" which doesn't mean they want every one to be able to jungle It means they want a control set of champions that can jungle