Poor Junglers can't get anything nice without laners abusing it - tl;dr included

King Tegoria··33 votes·2,819 views

With Riot paying more attention to the jungle and introducing items such as Cinderhulk and Runeglaive in order to strengthen their jungle buddies and give them more impact in the game, laners have taken notice of the strength of these new items and started using them themselves.

When Cinderhulk first came out tank junglers loved it. %HP bonus AND a built in item 3068 passive for clear? I think it's safe to say every tank jungler got pretty moist. But they weren't the only ones getting soaked down below. Top laners looked in, hoping to get in on this tankiness and burning damage as well. Eventually, they figured out just how potent going summoner 12 summoner 11 was. It was hard to win trades against them, and objectives such as dragons and barons were that much easier for a team to take. Challenging smite made killing tanks as a carry...quite...challenging. With their damage being reduced as they get chased by DrMundo or Shyvana . Don't forget the true damage autos too.

With the introduction of Runeglaive, AP Junglers such as Evelynn and Diana had a field day. And that's fine. But recently, mid AP Smite Ezreal has taken the game by storm. item 3708 has everything a mid laner could want. AP, CDR, and an AOE item 3100 proc. So they thought "Why not?" I just got out of a game in which I won lane against a mid AP Smite Ezreal and had a full item over him, but he could still evenly trade with me with item 3708 . That's just how strong the Runeglaive is, and should only be that strong for the role it was made for - Jungle.

Anyways, rather than nerfing the items, as Riot has done previously with Cinderhulk(It's still being used in lane ¯_(ツ)_/¯), and is probably preparing to do with Runeglaive, changes can be implemented instead, so junglers get all their shiny new toys and laners have to keep their dirty mitts to themselves. The most effective change that can be made is reducing the amount of gold earned from lane minions as someone with smite. This will lower the temptation for a laner to take smite, as their gold intake will be drastically reduced.

But Junglers clear waves later in the game, so wouldn't this hurt them? That's why some time around the twenty five or thirty minute mark (around when laning phase ends), the gold intake is changed back to normal. So Shaco and Udyr can go about their business as usual as well.

But what if the Jungler has to hold lane or lane themselves if the laner is dced? I'm sure someone smarter than me can figure that out, but until then, tough num nuts. At least it discourages Junglers from over taxing you. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

TL;DR Smite should only be for jungle, gold from lane minions should be reduced during laning phase for those who have it to discourage laners from taking it.

49 Comments

XLC21 votes

Weren't people whining on how 'horrible' Runeglaive was and how it was only usable on 2 champions, shouldn't be added... but now that ONE champion is using it ONE lane it's all 'IT'S GREAT STOP USING IT OMFG GTFO LANERS'? EDIT: Is some other champion other then Ezreal running Runeglaive because everyone acts like every single mid is running flash-smite with Runeglaive.

I Miss Cannon4 votes

i never thought it was bad and people who think it's bad forget it's 1600 gold cheaper than lich bane and turns your next auto into magic damage.... and magic damage is as everyone knows harder to itemize against and magic penetration is also easier to itemize.

ChaoticPinecone5 votes

Be honest in answering this question - How many junglers do you see take Runeglaive? Its a jungle item and its best use ATM is in Midlane. Thats a problem. That makes Runeglaive a horrible jungle item, did nothing for 'jungle diveristy', and nerfed one of the last AP Junglers (Fiddle). It shouldnt have been added.

At least cinderhulk helped tank junglers so much that people decided it was great for top lane too. Runeglaive provided no influx of AP Junglers. All it did was help AP Ezreal.

Dengeden1 votes

The problem is simply that there aren't any AP junglers. Diana, Nid ,Eve (technically) and Fiddle are the only ones I could name. What else is there? Fizz (wouldnt he pick Devourer), Ekko (a tank jungler), Brand (more of a mid)?

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Yeah, and on those champs the old item was fine. Runeglaive actually reduced the viability of a few of them, since really only Diana and Evelynn can bring its main strength out.

Dengeden1 votes

On Eve? Definitely not. Does Runeglave suck on Nid? I don't play her because I'm not evil, so I dunno. She usually went for a mana item after her jungle item, wouldn't runeglave help her avoid that? Fiddle is completely screwed, yup.

1999 01 171 votes

{quoted}

The problem is simply that there aren't any AP junglers. Diana, Nid ,Eve (technically) and Fiddle are the only ones I could name. What else is there? Fizz (wouldnt he pick Devourer), Ekko (a tank jungler), Brand (more of a mid)?

there COULD be more ap junglers but riot intentionally hamstrings champions like rumble and morde in the jungle for some reason.

Dengeden1 votes

Wat? I've looked through the patch notes and there hasn't been a jungle specific change to either of them.

1999 01 171 votes

because they've had 50% damage to monsters on their abilities since release

Dengeden1 votes

Ah, well to be fair, it's not like their solo lane counterparts wouldnt abuse extra dmg to camps level 1 or to rack up more farm.

AFK Push6 votes

{quoted}

Weren't people whining on how 'horrible' Runeglaive was and how it was only usable on 2 champions, shouldn't be added... but now that ONE champion is using it ONE lane it's all 'IT'S GREAT STOP USING IT OMFG GTFO LANERS'?

The fact that it is ass for what it was intended, but great for what it's not supposed to do shows how badly designed it is. The damn item needs to be taken out. The last ap jungle item was better than runeglaive for ap junglers, and didn't have laners using it cause it is OP on them.

Phife1 votes

pretty much the shittiest jungle item. but its good for lane.

Android Cowboy5 votes

There is a factor that discourages it.... if you don't know what you're doing, you just wasted a slot and lose your match. That itself is a great reason not to take smite, unless you know what the heck you are doing. Gnar

DrCyanide1 votes

The same logic could be used for summoner 14 summoner 7 summoner 6 summoner 4 summoner 3 ... any Summoner Spell really. My wife still remembers starting out as a new player and using Flash to get back into lane faster. I'm not very comfortable taking Ignite just because I don't use it that often.

Not knowing what you're doing is something that fades away with time and practice. Just as I can force myself to use Ignite more, laners can force themselves to use Smite more.

windwolf7775 votes

But honestly, isn't this part of the "STRATEGIC DIVERSITY" that riot was wanting? I honestly have no problem as top laners either give up summoner 4 or summoner 12 or any lane gives up summoner 7 summoner 6 summoner 4 summoner 14 in order to use smite

Singing Lark1 votes

It becomes an issue when the item doesn't do what it was designed to do (be an AP jungler's jungle item) but excells at something it wasn't (removing Ez's early game weakness).

Like, I am completely ok with taking summoner 12 summoner 11 top for cinderhulk, because that is strategic diversity. Cinderhulk does it's job well in the jungle, but you can also take it top at the sacrifice of one of your other summoner spells. But Runeglaive has just failed to do it's job as a jungle item in general.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

It also sacrifices a bunch of armor that you'd otherwise have if you choose item 3068 instead. Problem being it did more damage than item 3068 when it came out.

coevke1 votes

This man just said AP smite Ezreal removes Ezreal's weak early game. AP EZ WITH SMITE GETS SHIT ON EARLY! AD Ez is a lane bully. It's not a problem to have laners taking smite. AP Ez late game is insane, and we need to nerf that, but it's not that big of a deal.

Singing Lark1 votes

AP Ez gets shit on early regardless of smite or no smite.

I guess I wasn't very clear. What I meant was that it removed his early (-ish, kinda more play partial mid game) game mana issues which allowed him to reach his late game power quicker than before.

Honestly I wouldn't have any issue with smite mid Ez if Runeglaive did its job for AP junglers better.

AyRe CoNteMpT3 votes

poor game cant get anything that is not forced into a specific role without the community crying "omg i need predetermination so i dont have to admit im uncreative"

Vistha Kai3 votes

The thing is Mage jungle item change was suppose to unlock jungling for higher number of AP champions.

What it in fact did was removing an item that benefited all AP champions in the jungle, instead of MODIFYING it.

Screw this, take away 20 AP from Magus, but doing shit like Runeglaive just begs to create bullshit such as literal full AP Ezreal.

Runeglaive benefits only those champions who already jungled(assuming they aren't building Cinderhulk anyway), is a nice buff to selected few that were underplayed (but not weak; see Diana) and gives exactly nothing for everybody else.

Jungle item should benefit junglers and only them. For example, what's the purpose of Runeglaive converting entire attack to magic damage on proc? There is none.

Renaille3 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Tegoria,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Mbrvg2wJ,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-07-04T20:59:06.909+0000)

Smite should only be for jungle

I don't see why.

Wheatloaf3 votes

Okay,

  1. Is there really that much of a problem with laners taking a jungle item so long as they actually make some sort of tradeoff for it? Cinderhulk scales better than Sunfire, but it does less damage and has no armor. Runeglaive sustains mana/clears minions/monsters better than Lich Bane, but its single-target damage is pretty severely lower. In the case of Cinderhulk top laners, they even usually sacrifice flash for smite. If your only problem with laners taking smite items is that they have the "jungler" label slapped on 'em, I don't get it. It's not like you can't buy it if they do, anyway.

  2. AP Ezreal's damage has always been ridiculous, Runeglaive's just given him a smoother path to actually get those items, because it's cheap as all fuck, gives him free mana for smacking Raptors in the face every so often so he doesn't need tear, and lets him pick up something vaguely resembling waveclear. He's traditionally had a problem with getting shoved halfway down his lane before he can actually do damage to anything outside of his annoying W hitbox.

Riot did a pretty good job of fixing Cinderhulk, which was all-around just insane on release, so that now it can work pretty well on both laners and junglers. I'm not sure how well they're going to be able to patch up Runeglaive, because some of the champions that use it have proven problematic in and of themselves in the past (looking at you, Evelynn, Diana, Ezreal), but I think they should have a better reason than "jungle items should stay in the jungle!" before they make it crap for laners. It's already crap on enough junglers. R.I.P. Fiddlesticks

Potato Doc3 votes

Personally I feel like disabling the option to buy the hunters machete after 2:00 or by taking smite the gold is automatically removed from your starting gold and you just automatically start with hunters machete would help to stop laners from taking smite. Or option 3 would be limit only 1 hunters machete per team

I think any of these are good starting ideas on how to quell this whole smite laner meta. Im not against variety unless the variety is directly ruining another role like this meta is doing right now

Earl Eulrich2 votes

the problem is that they keep using that scaling items for jungle, though junglers naturally have less resources than laners to scale from - meaning laners will always abuse those scalings more than junglers. Runeglaive would be fine with a flat-dmg instead of the ap-scaling that scales either with lvl or like the new devourer evolves with enough monster-kills.

Chespin20132 votes

Idk I like having smite not only used by the jungler adds more diversity to the game just wish they make runeglaive be relevant for all ap junglers instead of just a select few

Koldheartedjsp2 votes

there's nothing wrong with laners bringing smite to lane

just because most of you are still sheep and think "OMG MUST BRING THE INSANELY OVERRATED IGNITE OR EXHAUST CUS LCS" doesn't mean smite should be drastically changed

RookPusher1 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Tegoria,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Mbrvg2wJ,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-07-04T20:59:06.909+0000)

TL;DR Smite should only be for jungle, gold from lane minions should be reduced during laning phase for those who have it to discourage laners from taking it.

I suggest this sort of thing all the time and I've never seen it even talked about. Build in "Reduces AD/AP by 25%" should be on most support items.

GinoSoldier11 votes

{quoted}

I suggest this sort of thing all the time and I've never seen it even talked about. Build in "Reduces AD/AP by 25%" should be on most support items.

Except if that happened, support MAGES would simply just build straight AP and completely forego any and all supporty items, as their use often scales off their AP, and implementing AP/AD reductions to support gear would completely cripple them (think Sona all spells / Janna shield, ult, slow and speed scalings / Nami and Soraka healing... list goes on.).

The very idea that Supports should not deal any damage is completely ridiculous; pure, outright damage is one of the main and most important ways to secure kills, because the carries actually can't do all the damage on their own.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

I think it should just be that the "mage" supports should be reworked to cut out the things that make them better for support than their intended roles. (Morgana, Annie mainly) Morg is supposed to be a midlaner, but with a shield that stops CC, and the strongest midlaners not actually having any hard CC, she's been forced to go bot where it can be used instead of being given anything different.

GinoSoldier1 votes

{quoted}

I think it should just be that the "mage" supports should be reworked to cut out the things that make them better for support than their intended roles. (Morgana, Annie mainly) Morg is supposed to be a midlaner, but with a shield that stops CC, and the strongest midlaners not actually having any hard CC, she's been forced to go bot where it can be used instead of being given anything different.

You have to consider that if you're talking about Morgana and Annie, you're really talking about most immobile mages in the game. Vel'Koz, Anivia, Brand, Xerath, Zyra, Lux all 'suffer' from this same technical issue, and are all seen as 'supports' now and then. But if you tweak their kits to remove or lower the CC and utility that makes them supporty, how in the world will they be able to live in mid where without CC you just get annihilated by the high mobility champions?

It's a similar problem to when the meta swapped and many top tanks that acted as bruiser supports stopped being useful in comparison to their jungle counterparts. Leona, Taric, Skarner, Volibear, Shen, Nautilus, Alistar, and maybe a few others all suffered an identity crisis and ended as potential supports/needed buffs to enter jungle. They all can still go to top lane and win (except maybe Leona, since she really works best alongside an ally), but they aren't 'toplaners' anymore.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Well you can't really count Brand, Xerath, or Vel'koz, since they aren't played support nearly as much and lack a lot that would make them viable there besides damage. I mean on say, Lux, Orianna, Morganna, take away the shield in exchange for some mobility (That'd help Morg's ultimate so much, and help better line up shots for Lux. Plus on Ori they could maybe do something where She goes to the ball instead of that shield) or blinds/silences.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Because supports really need ANOTHER kneecapping.

windwolf7773 votes

{quoted}

I suggest this sort of thing all the time and I've never seen it even talked about. Build in "Reduces AD/AP by 25%" should be on most support items.

......name an item that makes something worse than what the champ started with? (And don't say there can always be a first as an argument)

50000000000000001 votes

Lich bane technically lowers the physical damage portion by 25%. Runeglaive does 0 physical damage compared to sheen, which does 100% base AD.

Of course in both cases the higher tier items should be seen as upgrades because the upgrades are more powerful, but there are exceptions.

Sozan53 votes

Lich Bane doesn't lowers the physical damage portion... The autoattack hits for 100% AD physical damage + 75% Base AD + 50% AP magical damage

YambrinZ1 votes

EZ solution. Any jungle item passives should only be active for "X" amount of seconds after using smite on JUNGLE CREEPS. This actually requires that top and mid to go into the jungle to use the fking jungle summoner spell. Crazy thought right?

Bears Dont Care2 votes

{quoted}

EZ solution. Any jungle item passives should only be active for "X" amount of seconds after using smite on JUNGLE CREEPS. This actually requires that top and mid to go into the jungle to use the fking jungle summoner spell. Crazy thought right?

Does not really work for sites such as challenging and chilling.

Xsoteric Ronin 1 votes

I disagree.

Br4ndon1 votes

For the "But what if the Jungler has to hold lane or lane themselves if the laner is dced? I'm sure someone smarter than me can figure that out, but until then, tough num nuts. At least it discourages Junglers from over taxing you. ¯(ツ)/¯"

Maybe killing lane minions build charges that after X number of large monster kills you get gold depending on the amount of charges you built up. The gold gain would just be the gold missed, no extra gold.

Cloud Potato1 votes

The real issue is that Jungle items are being made to be cheap, slot efficient, and enable stronger jungling. That combination is simply too powerful and laners won't ignore it. Making Smite mandatory didn't solve this dilemma; Summoner Spells are on long cooldowns and being able to make plays more often with Chilling/Challenging Smite, despite being weaker than Exhaust and such, is a worthy tradeoff to be able to buy a cheap, strong item that helps nicking jungle camps faster.

People need to accept that Jungler items won't be able to be godlike. People complained that Runeglaive wouldn't be worth keeping over Lich Bane but so what? Is more damage really more important than being able to take down monsters much more effectively? Or being able to power up Smite? If all you care about is damage, sure. But it's a tradeoff that needs to exist if you don't want laners to take those items.

Krinu1 votes

{{Champion:10}}?

Hyrum Graff1 votes

...and then you have threads where people complain that Riot enforces the meta; you just can't have it both ways!

Android Cowboy1 votes

Exactly, and if they find it's not as useful as they thought, then they WON'T pick it.... but the option should be there to use it at your discretion, just like every other summoner spell. Freedom from meta FTW. You people against anyone else but jungle getting smite can't see the forest for the trees. Gnar

Silents4291 votes

Apart from the fact we have only like. 3 or 4 AP junglers, all dealing damage to camps differently is why this item is so damn difficult to make, people saying magus was better only mean late game, early on it did jack for junglers, it didn't help damage or mana sustain which is what we need, I don't think they should have gone a sheen route with this item, instead just giving it AP and decent mana regen to replace item 3165 and item 3174 for AP users.

Epicusmaximo1 votes

An easy solution would be to allow only one smite summoner spell per team. I mean...it's common knowledge that it's the junglers spell.

There's a reason you have to have smite to purchase the jungle items, they don't want everyone using it, so limit it.

UPfreely1 votes

lets get something straight here. it's not a laners' fault for this being a good item for them, it's an engineering failure.

Malix Farwin1 votes

Runeglaive isnt "nice" for junglers anyways, in this case its the laners who are benefitting from it more.

coevke1 votes

Runeglaive is balanced. All rito has to do is remove spell effects from applying on the AoE (Ludens, Rylais, etc.). Rito wants diversity. People get all wazzed about the meta being changed but this is great. The only champ that got severely hurt by Runeglaive is Fiddle, and Fid will always be competitive. People say that it removes old AP junglers, but it doesn't. I have seen a Ziggs jungle that did well and didn't die once to jg camps because of Runeglaive. Nid Jungle is better because of it, you dont have to chose between RoA and Lich Bane, Eve is still being built AD in most regions, and Diana Jungle will never be that competitive simply because she can't gank well early. Its like playing in lane vs Kassisdin and then getting out-traded by him when he has RoA+Luden's. Every champ has power spikes, you fought that Ezreal in his power spike and that's why you lost. As long as these champs are balanced (And I don't mean by the noob standard of anything they lose to is op), laners taking smite is great. Just pick Lee Sin mid and shit on that AP Ezreal early game. <3 Ezreal +summoner 11 = weak early

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