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Damage dealers are not support champions.

StrDexCon··3 votes·1,391 views

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24 Comments

Psi212 votes

They are if the meta is tankie dps

Brand stun for the win!

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

Damage dealing supports are a thing, and two that you listed (Brand and Vel'Koz) fit the bill well and i would argue that they blur the lines with your "support mage" description more than you think.

  1. They do damage early to bully the enemy out of lane so your adc can farm more safely for longer. (BF sword first back for your adc vs pickaxe boots and no BF sword second back either is the goal)
  2. They can excel early without needing items either through a high damage passive or high base stats.
  3. They often have good poke.
  4. They usually have one hard cc.

Vel'Koz

  1. true damage passive
  2. passive has no item scaling
  3. q for poke around minions other spells are also good for poke
  4. e has a knock up

Brand

  1. %health damage passive
  2. passive has no item scaling
  3. entire kit can be used for repeated burst trades but any ability can be used for poke applying his passive
  4. q has a stun

0-9-21 or 9-0-21 for masteries helps with the gold generation, starting with spellthiefs for gold with every trade, as well as gp10 quints will give you the gold you need to be relevant in the mid-late game. If you still need more gold then farm the mid game collecting exp and gold from lanes that have been pushed to tower in order to get gold safely.

Pros: Strong laning phase. Roaming mid game for ward coverage across the entire map. Strong damage late game.

Cons: Weak mid game (counter argument: strong early and late games make up for this.) Relies on your adc to be able to farm and take advantage of the early advantage you are getting (counter argument: as support when aren't you relying on your adc to not be bad.) Doesn't have as much cc as others (counter argument: karma, braum, lulu, nunu, sona, taric, soraka don't have much hard cc. Hard cc isn't a requirement for a support.)

Meanwhile i would argue that kennen, nidalee, morgana, and annie can all fit into this category as well.

StrDexCon2 votes

"give you the gold you need to be relevant in the mid-late game"

Supports don't NEED gold to be relevant. Did you even read my post? Among the first lines you'll find "but because he lacks the utility to meaningfully contribute to his team without gold."

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Supports don't NEED gold to be relevant.

Brand and VelKoz don't need gold to be relevant. Their passive applies independently of any gold income whatsoever.

And on that note, who says supports cant get any gold? That's not a decree that anyone put forth nor a rule that anyone must obey. Just because the support gets his gold from sources that aren't csing doesn't mean they don't get gold. It is the exact reason we have support items and gp10 runes. Damage dealing supports can be played quite effectively and i'm sorry they don't fit into your mold of what a support should be. Its a playstyle that works. I've given you detailed reasons why (Did you even read my post?). All you have given me is "they dont have utility" which isn't the end all be all of supporting.

Deal with it.

http://i.imgur.com/IZPcV.gif

3TWarrior1 votes

and actually, supports are VERY dependent upon gold...try living as soraka when you only have a sightstone and coin compared to soraka with coin and high ap damage items relevant to healing and poking the enemies and healing your team. Hi, i'm the soraka at 30% hp who only heals 200 hp per heal and 100 per blast. Hi, i'm soraka who hits for 300 damage and 500 heals, watch my team fight baron after a teamfight and win the match

sorry for the negative attitude, but I enjoy alternative supports...they're not perfect, but they sure make the game interesting. My favorite is Chogath...insane damage, insane crowd control, EXTRA DAMAGE CAPABLE TEAM MEMBER

AyRe CoNteMpT2 votes

look, i know you are a close-minded meta sheep and itll probably be useless to explain things to you, but let me just reveal to you that almost every champion in the game can be extremely usefull as support aswell as in any other role. you just have to find ways to make it work, and there are ways definitely, even if they are hidden to your meta-sheep eyes.

Matthias91192 votes

A support's primary job is to apply utility effects.

No, a "support"'s primary job is to make the other players on the team more effective. Optimally without requiring much gold so that they can duo lane with a carry and not take CS.

There's more than one way to do that. Brand has killer poke and his ult can decimate a grouped-up team. As the saying goes, death is the best form of hard CC.

IcyPepper1 votes

Er, Vel'Koz does have a bit of cc to defend his carry. He's not quite a utility mage, but still.

Nidalee, however, I'll give you.

StrDexCon1 votes

Vel'Koz has one disable. Slows aren't actually disables (by virtue that they don't stop you from doing anything, a slowed champ can still move and still cast spells), and as such a slow can't protect anyone from, say, Zed or Talon who won't rely on their movespeed to get into range and do their damage.

IcyPepper2 votes

Eh. One disable is certainly better than none, like Nidalee. And as for dealing with Zed or Talon, it's mainly the tank or frontline's job to keep them off. Thing about Vel'Koz is, he can assist the apc and adc in poking the enemy team, which is neat even for a support.

Vel'Koz support does deal damage, but that doesn't mean he can't be successful in bot lane. He's a poke support with a disable, which would make him great against the likes of tanks and all in supports. Some data.

He's weak against sustain and disengage champions, which makes sense for a poke support. Keep in mind that Vel'Koz is categorized as a poke support, which are supposed to deal a moderate amount of damage and have some (but not a lot) of disables (Sona, for example, is a poke/sustain hybrid with only one hard cc and her passive to slow). You can't disregard the niche poke supports fill, which I feel like is the undertone of this thread.

tl;dr: not all supports have cc up the butt, poke supports are indeed supports and fill a unique niche just like every other support class does.

Z Statistic1 votes

Except you as Vel'koz don't have to protect Jinx from Zed when you have Gragas and his E. You can help him, but that's rarely what's going to happen.

What IS going to happen most of the time is a Righteous Glory Malphite who ulted the front line and now you need to keep him from Jinx by virtue of slowing him. Both Q and R allow Vel'koz to slow multiple people, including the tanks that need to be kited.

3TWarrior1 votes

velkoz has knockup and slow and does true damage while having great long distance abilities. don't his void rifts or whatever also cost no mana because they're stored attacks?

Maple Crusader1 votes

{quoted}

velkoz has knockup and slow and does true damage while having great long distance abilities. don't his void rifts or whatever also cost no mana because they're stored attacks?

He uses mana per charge.

khorney1 votes

Morg does a lot of damage same as zyra brand has a stun umm that's just as long as zyra root and his harass is better then zyra you should learn your champs

StrDexCon2 votes

Zyra's root is an AoE, doesn't require being set up by her other spells and it can't be blocked by the tank standing in front of her because it travels through people. She also has the giant knockup on Stranglethorns. Brand's stun is one target. Harassing effectively in lane doesn't add up to a big impact in teamfights.

khorney1 votes

Morg does a lot of damage same as zyra brand has a stun umm that's just as long as zyra root and his harass is better then zyra you should learn your champs

Mandang02 votes

Brand has 1 stun, and it's less reliable than Zyra's snare. Zyra also has an AOE slow and an AOE knockup. Morg has an AOE slow and a CC-immunity shield. Brand has.......damage, and that's it. The problem with damage is that it usually requires items, while CC doesn't. The duration on support Zyra's knockup or Morg's binding is just as long as mid Zyra or mid Morg's. Support Brand can't say the same thing about how his damage compares to mid Brand's.

30562438_DEL1 votes

"Support" technically isn't a champion type at all. there are some champions which are very good at supporting others, but really, "Support" is an activity, and players will use whatever tools they have available to perform this activity (and others) effectively.

StrDexCon2 votes

Agreed. To choose Brand as your tool for the supporting activity is like trying to drive a screw with a fork when you have a perfectly good selection of real tools actually designed for the activity of driving a screw out in the shed.

Krigjer1 votes

I fail to see how Annie counts as a mage support but Brand doesn't. They both deal tons of damage and both have a stun that must be used wisely.

Mandang01 votes

Because Annie's stun is point-and-click and possibly AOE, while Brand's isn't either of those things. Tibbers is also useful for objectives.

Maple Crusader1 votes

{quoted}

I fail to see how Annie counts as a mage support but Brand doesn't. They both deal tons of damage and both have a stun that must be used wisely.

Annie has a reliable stun, and Brand can only CC only a target if they are debuffed by his Burn passive. Annie's stun can also be AoE, which makes her more versatile compared to Brand's single target stun.

The Anagram King1 votes

Urgot

Damage debuff, conditional permaslow at obscene range levels, armour shred, fairly tanky.

Pure damage dealer.

ARGUMENT DEFEATED!

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