Other Aurelion Sol nerf?

Stars Shaper·Sep 8, 2016·34 votes·32,059 views

**Celestial Expansion (W) **

Passive's star base damage lowered to 5/10/15/20/25 from 10/20/30/40/50

Mana cost per second changed to 22/24/26/28/30 from 16/22/28/34/40

I know his winrate for expert players is really high but it's also true that he is not an everyday pick which means that the high win rate is because he is played by dedicated mains in favorable matchups (abysmal pickrate). The mana cost isn't going to balance it.

Unless there are other reasons behind this (in which case I'd like to hear them) except for raw stats I see this nerf completely undeserved.

Edit: Adding Meddler full change list. In the end there is a nice QoL on E and some damage is going to be dragged into the passive damage, with the mana cost reduction this might result in higher damage late game.

P - Center of the Universe

Damage:: 20-97 >>> 20-130

E - Comet of Legend

Escape Velocity removed, can now be cast at any time outside of combat. Goes on short cooldown when taking champion/tower damage. Can no longer click to cancel, only cancelled with E recast. Now casts immediately, even if outside of cast range.

87 Comments

RiotMeddlerSep 8, 201617 votes

Aurelion Sol's too strong when played by experienced Aurelion Sol players and compared against other similar champions played by people with an equivalent amount of experience on those champs. Feels bad having to nerf him given he's not particularly common, he's still not a sufficiently fair experience in game though.

In conjunction with the W changes we're also doing some quality of life work on the E. Goal there is to make it smoother to get into the flight state and reduce accidental cancels. Not sure if those changes are on PBE yet, should be there soon if not.

Stars ShaperSep 8, 20163 votes

Thank you for the fast answer.

I know myself that he is a really strong character if well used but I also see clearly that anything that can jump in melee range reduces him to 0 without much effort (Pantheon and Akali just to make 2 names) and he also suffers from ppl who can exploit long ranges. His low pick rate should mean that he is picked only when there is a clear advantage for him and I'm sure that this is a huge influence on his winrate.

I'm not on the PTR myself so I can't say about his E if not published somewhere, glad that you are working on accidental cancels because I happened to fall into those quite a lot.

warpenguin555Sep 8, 20163 votes

Any chance to make using his Q while flying easier? I have yet to see anybody use it correctly and most of the time it flies off to the side.

RiotMeddlerSep 8, 201611 votes

We'll probably do a second pass on that sort of quality of life stuff at some point. What in particular do you find makes aiming the Q tough in those circumstances?

Alch3ndaSep 8, 20162 votes

so does this mean he doesn't gain movement speed moving in a straight line anymore?

RiotMeddlerSep 9, 201612 votes

The E passive is unchanged, the way you access the Active is different.

RabblerouserSep 12, 20161 votes

While on the subject of his E

Now casts immediately, even if outside of cast range.

Why change that? Was it just too easy? It allowed some reliability in that you knew where you would finish your E and made efficient use of all of your range, if you could.

It's literally the only thing I'm too worried about on this change to Sol.

SpaghooterSep 13, 20161 votes

Exactly, I share this guy's sentiments. I really don't want to see this change come to live.

VelasanSep 8, 20162 votes

{quoted}

We'll probably do a second pass on that sort of quality of life stuff at some point. What in particular do you find makes aiming the Q tough in those circumstances?

Hi Meddler. Idk what is going on with the internal testing on Aurelion, but I think a lot of his power is in engage/disengage capability paired with always being where the fight is via his E, and his win rates reflect that.

I share starshapers feelings on that anyone who can jump him scores an easy kill. What makes him so strong (especially in regular games vs. lcs or challenger level) is that ability to jump into a team fight, ult, and give your team a chance to jump in on the action.

Like if Nami could teleport into lane and use her wave.

P.S. I really like and want to use the champion more so please be careful with big sweeping nerfs. I'm not so sure those E changes will help. In fact not being able to cancel the E would be a large nerf. When I play aurelion I constantly have to cancel the E, particularly if I used it and the enemy uses some mobility skill before I get there and I'm way off target (aka vayne tumble, yasuo dash etc).

Ty for listening.

KirasathinSep 8, 20162 votes

{quoted}

P.S. I really like and want to use the champion more so please be careful with big sweeping nerfs. I'm not so sure those E changes will help. In fact not being able to cancel the E would be a large nerf. When I play aurelion I constantly have to cancel the E, particularly if I used it and the enemy uses some mobility skill before I get there and I'm way off target (aka vayne tumble, yasuo dash ).

We'll still be able to cancel E just by recasting it instead of clicking to move.

My general opinion is that his pushing power is just too powerful early game, but if a champion is able to jump and you don't ultimate or flash, you are practically dead. Maybe this is the intended counter play, but it's really frustating. If we are able to detonate Q instantly it would feel much better. For example if you want to detonate it immediately it should have a little less range (diagonal), but then it grows as big as it is now when it goes to the outer ring without moving (more rapidly)? I've played a lot of times Sol (117k mastery) and 2-3 times against him, the first time I picked Varus and he just dealt with me pretty easily, but the second time I picked Yasuo and it was much easier once I went near him and he was unable to hit me with his stars nor the Q.

GrunerblitZSep 9, 20163 votes

{quoted}

We'll probably do a second pass on that sort of quality of life stuff at some point. What in particular do you find makes aiming the Q tough in those circumstances?

It's not that the Q is tough to aim per se, it's that a tiny tiny difference in angle ends up being a huuuge difference when you're travelling halfway across the map. Not sure how to fix that without making him only able to Q forward though.

RiotMeddlerSep 9, 201610 votes

Only Qing forward while Eing, or at least Q directly forward if you cast within a certain arc, might be a reasonable approach given there's already a lot of execution challenge and telegraph on the E itself. I'll bounce the thought off the folks working on these changes.

Stars ShaperSep 9, 20162 votes

I wouldn't like the arc limitation. Time to time I have to use it 90 degrees from my E direction. I don't know if it would be too OP but I think a chance to fix the direction during the flight would be the best solution.

WoonStruckSep 9, 20167 votes

He was saying if you're mid-E, it would cast straight forward if you cast it within somewhere around a 10 degree arc, as its pretty damn likely your intention is straight forward in that case anyway.

As far as readjusting trajectory...no. Absolutely not.

Bard MarleySep 18, 20161 votes

Hello, The problem is that i (sol player) typically use the minimap to direct my star and the game for my E, then i let the star get in front of me so it leads (improving my position when i arrive) but usually once it gets near the edge of my outerlimit, ANY slight deviation can detonate it prematurely. You should make a line behind the star (like a trail of stars) that way we can better see the angle we need to hit. Simply adding a mechanic that matches the angle of the star would help too (Pressing e on the star's core should 0 the angle of the star, rather than the position from sol to cursor). I have never had an issue with casting mid-e.

warpenguin555Sep 9, 20162 votes

My problem is figuring out where to click when flying. There are times when I click right in front of Sol but the star ends up flying right beside me instead. I click a little too far back and the star goes flying behind me. It feels to me like its a 1 unit difference between "Ok thats not exactly where i wanted it but its close enough" and "Welp my star just shot away, there goes my play".

Photos of GhostsSep 9, 20162 votes

The solution is to click the furthest possible. The further you click, the least difference in angle there is between two points within your error margin.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Aurelion Sol's too strong when played by experienced Aurelion Sol players and compared against other similar champions played by people with an equivalent amount of experience on those champs. Feels bad having to nerf him given he's not particularly common, he's still not a sufficiently fair experience in game though.

In conjunction with the W changes we're also doing some quality of life work on the E. Goal there is to make it smoother to get into the flight state and reduce accidental cancels. Not sure if those changes are on PBE yet, should be there soon if not.

Really? He's probably one of the weakest mid lane mages in the game right now.

It's time to call a spade a spade. He's essentially a shittier version of taliyah (who is actually viable even in pro play and who is getting nerfs that make sense).

I'm sorry but this guy never even got a chance, he had his stun absolutely gutted the second he came out and since then his play-rate has hovered at abysmal rates.

Hell I bet some of the reasons behind his win rate being peculiarly high is because a lot of people have probably never faced an aurelion sol before and hardly know what the hell he does until quite a bit into the game.

AurelionSol is just an arrogant asshole with nothing to show far, and once this nerf goes through, he will have even less to show for. I can't help but disagree with your decision to nerf him Meddler.

Even in platinum, I don't ever see Aurelion. Literally, I have not seen him in MONTHS.

NumptySep 9, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Really? He's probably one of the weakest mid lane mages in the game right now.

It's time to call a spade a spade. He's essentially a shittier version of taliyah (who is actually viable even in pro play and who is getting nerfs that make sense).

I'm sorry but this guy never even got a chance, he had his stun absolutely gutted the second he came out and since then his play-rate has hovered at abysmal rates.

Hell I bet some of the reasons behind his win rate being peculiarly high is because a lot of people have probably never faced an aurelion sol before and hardly know what the hell he does until quite a bit into the game.

is just an arrogant asshole with nothing to show far, and once this nerf goes through, he will have even less to show for. I can't help but disagree with your decision to nerf him Meddler.

Even in platinum, I don't ever see Aurelion. Literally, I have not seen him in MONTHS.

http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics

Currently the 4th highest winrate in the middle lane in platinum and above, and that's from all players, not just the experienced.

If you know what order to max your skills in, which is the most basic level of "knowing" a champion, that winrate jumps to 60+%, for more than half of the games he's played in.

On average, if the game ends by 25 minutes, he wins 59+% of the time.

Does this sound like one of the weakest mid lane mages to you? Does this sound like a shitty Taliyah? "Who is actually viable in pro play" lol, like Aurelion isn't? Go watch LCK. He got 3 games and 4 bans in the playoffs. He's 100% viable, he's just a pretty particular champion that most mid lane pros are not practiced on.

Also, you haven't seen him in MONTHS and you're telling everyone about the state of his balance?

TerrorgheistSep 17, 20161 votes

It's not... you just think that a 59% win rate it's because the champ is Stronger than the others... I think the small % of pick is the real motivation and poor experience in counter him makes a good pick when you have a CLEAR ADVANTAGE...

The Q+ E combo is useless in Lateral Ganks is a 100% miss. Can be used in Straight Line Chases but at higher ranks people hardly run in straight line chased by a Q+E.

Are easy to learn his Basic Concepts but are hard to apply, we can say Push the Line but don't burn all the mana cuz you need it for Fly Bot and Stun and Sustain W or eventually R but it is pretty hard to do.

the Solo in Ranked is rewarding if you play 1 champ very very good Yasuo ..

A PRO AurelionSol need to master also other champs because there are so many ways to counter Aurelion --> (Assassin or Fighter) you can't really afford to be counter pick otherwise you have No Chance.

(Aurelion Must be able to push very fast otherwise the E is not very Usable without losing the Turret at MID Game.) so this Nerf affect his Strategic design.

The Champ suffer all Gap Closers... and need a constant Security Distance that's a hard concept... so you have constantly Calculate the Dashes and the jumps and the everything can affect you.

This New changes will make it weaker and if the expert player feels the champ is too weak... I DON'T THINK ANYONE ELSE has chances...

the stupid thing is to try to balance clearly useful Team-Champ, incapable of solo carry, rare Wise Pick with ore assists than kills...

and not a champ capable of carry a game constantly creating advantage with all sort of noob pick like Fizz the Untargetable Zed the Untargetable and Yasuo The Unavoidable... they come under your turret kill you and run away...

HolybambeirutSep 17, 20161 votes

Hi! I just wanted to share my opinion on this: Aurelion Sol's pickrate is so low and his winrate is high only on people with 125+games on him, this means that what contributes to this guy's high winrate is the "surprise factor" and people still having to master the matchup. Sol has clear strenght and weaknesses and that's what makes him balanced imo, his strenght is all about roaming and making plays across the map in the early game as he falls off pretty hard in the lategame (he's not at all a late game champ), and hitting that this hard will for sure make his winrate drop by a ton (and I'm barely at 52% ç_ç) whilst keeping his weaknesses intact. In fact you CANNOT play and hope to win with Sol if u don't snowball HARD the game 'cause certain champions will always make u useless if the teams are close in gold value (Yasuo, Fizz, Kassadin) and we would be left with a champion with little strenghts as he wouldnt be able to shove as good anymore AND he really does little with that late-game dmg buff. Furthermore, if people realize the strategy behind Sol and counteracts to it (jungler lv2-3 gank while he's shoving at first, counterroams, picks on his roaming, counterpicks, efficient ward placement) his winrate could see a decreasy as its not like his teamfighting/skirmishing is as good as many other mages (or champions in general). I think you could try to wait for this changes until next patch and see how his winrate goes (after all this should be the worlds patch); I love Sol but just when I became decent with him my winrate got hit hard by counterpicks and unlucky throws as u cannot solo carry with this champ, u NEED your team (and there are several replays of pro Sol's having tons of killd and assists with crazy high kill partecipation but still losing. Sol does not deals tons of dmg but he is always useful to the team, nerfing his dmg more will basically make him a suppor-like midlanert, and that feels bad on a celestial dragon.

PopppyseedSep 8, 20164 votes

I expect there just testing the "breaking" point for Ao Shin and this wont be in the offical live update. I mean they would be cutting his star dmg by 50%

RiotMeddlerSep 8, 201624 votes

Yeah, didn't notice it before, but the changes posted above are only a partial change list. I'm assuming issues with PBE scrapping. Full list (still in testing) below. Main thing to note is that while his W bonus damage is getting cut damage is getting added to the damage from his passive, so it's a nerf in many but not all points of the game to star damage (and technically a slight buff late game).

P - Center of the Universe Damage:: 20-97 >>> 20-130

W - Celestial Expansion Bonus Damage:: 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 >>> 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 Persistent Mana Cost:: 16 / 22 / 28 / 34 / 40 per second >>> 22 / 24 / 26 / 28 / 30 per second

E - Comet of Legend Escape Velocity removed, can now be cast at any time outside of combat. Goes on short cooldown when taking champion/tower damage. Can no longer click to cancel, only cancelled with E recast. Now casts immediately, even if outside of cast range.

PopppyseedSep 8, 20162 votes

Ah, the buffs and QoLs weren't listed. Why dont we have offical PBE path notes? Like it could just be a sticky thread on the pbe forums

RiotMeddlerSep 9, 201612 votes

So far we've avoided putting time into PBE patch notes because we'd rather use that time on development for the patch instead. Third party sites like S@20 aren't perfect, but they're very close most of the time, so the slight improvement in tester feedback and player discussion's likely to be pretty small.

AMYS GRAVESep 9, 201630 votes

Have you guys considered hiring moobeat just to continue doing what he does? He might appreciate it and i'm sure the community would appreciate having them up right away every day instead of having WIP for a few hours every time while he sorts through the changes. You shouldn't need to divert developer resources in order to do that....

Twinkie DongSep 13, 20162 votes

That guy is right, hire him :D

IllsigvoSep 10, 20162 votes

But you guys should already have an internal list of changes/pbe patchnotes being pushed forward floating around, it shouldnt be that hard to set up a page that shares that kind of information so that the PBE and non PBE players that want to know what changes are coming up can be informed so they can provide the appropriate feedback on the changes.

Even if it is not 100% polished like official patch notes for each new official patch, they should mostly cover all the edge cases of S@20 or similar sites not being able to scrape all the info related to the changes. Not to mention that such sites would be able to communicate the changes to the player base in a much better and more accurate fashion instead of guesswork and speculation. Its not like people are going to stop visiting S@20, but S@20 and similar sites will be able to provide much more accurate info to the public which will lead to better feedback in the end.

I am RazgrizSep 19, 20161 votes

Why would you do that? Have notes for the patch day. All you need. PBE stuff can be changed at any time so why make notes for it when Patch day isn't just sufficient, but the best way to do it?

Stars ShaperSep 8, 20162 votes

Thanks again. Added to the main post.

Jeddy017Sep 9, 20165 votes

Meddler, sorry to hijack this thread, but can I ask for the context behind giving Mundo Grievous Wounds on his Q. It just seems incredibly random.

RiotMeddlerSep 9, 201612 votes

Was an investigation into giving him a clearer niche. Believe we're pulling it, Mundo needs a bit of help but that's likely not the right approach.

SpecterVonBarenSep 9, 20163 votes

Awww.... That one actually sounded interesting.

I am RazgrizSep 19, 20161 votes

It sounded awful and scary. He would become an unduelable monster.

Blue Moon WolfSep 9, 20162 votes

If you're really looking to go the Grievous Wounds route with him, maybe you could make it a combo thing. Something like add GW to his E, but only when his W is toggled on or something.

My Waifu VanillaSep 9, 20163 votes

Some sort of combo with Q into E would interesting since you pretty much put a huge gash in someone when you throw a rusty cleaver at them. Makes him less annoying poke wise and has to follow up a bit for bonuses.

H2ObseSep 13, 20161 votes

What about this idea: when mundo hits a champ with a Q he puts a stack (a knife) on his enemy. Stacks lasts x time, others mundo's Q on the same target add more stacks and reset timer. If mundo get to the target, with the first aa after his E he can extract all the knives in a bloodbath getting some nice bonus (damage and/or enemy cc depending on how many stacks). This should be funny, a buff to his gameplay and it fits well with his crazy horror butcher style.

KeitronSep 9, 20161 votes

How many games do you have on Asol to understand his W for CSing. The problem with Asol is there are many champions that can shut him down to the point of no return EX: Zed Fizz Ahri , these changes will make the match up even harder with out the damage power of his W and sustain time his winrate will drop near azirs level.

random gay guySep 11, 20161 votes

He's still way too oppressive against anyone who doesnt have a gapcloser. Even then he still has his R to knock them back towards his stars.

Th3 Ghost RiderSep 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

He's still way too oppressive against anyone who doesnt have a gapcloser. Even then he still has his R to knock them back towards his stars.

Yea its so "hard" to counter Asol just go melee range(or any sort of cc to cancel his stars active silence/stun/knockup) + u are overrating his R his R has high enough cd alrdy so its not go base go back to lane your ulti is up

KeitronSep 16, 20161 votes

I do not think you ever played AurelionSol against the champions i listed if you are this naive.

i am vaughnSep 9, 20163 votes

{quoted}

E - Comet of Legend Escape Velocity removed, can now be cast at any time outside of combat. Goes on short cooldown when taking champion/tower damage. Can no longer click to cancel, only cancelled with E recast. Now casts immediately, even if outside of cast range.

I've got roughly 350 ranked games in on Aurelion now and I really REALLY feel the immediate cast instead of the current method is not a good change. When I am playing him, I will 99% of the time cast my E where I want to end up, and having the fly start immediately would make it a lot harder to judge where I can fly to unless I look at the indicator. Especially in late game, if I want to fly far to make a big Q, I don't want to misjudge where my fly will end because I could stop short and really mess things up Amumu

The removal of escape velocity seems kinda weird too but I guess that its more of a neutral change than a nerf or buff.

I like the E only end of the fly, but to an extent. Usually I will end a fly (when ganking) by clicking an enemy champ to attack them. Is the fly not going to stop if I issue an attack command?

Creepy BubbleSep 14, 20161 votes

I agree. The ability can't be used in combat (which i actually think is stupid because when they change it i won't be able to use E to dodge anything after harassing anymore.) anyway so it shouldn't suffer from the 'I need to cast right now to escape!' issue (kinda like what i mentioned in those brackets)

Oakleaf RangerSep 9, 20162 votes

ohh I'm liking the change to E that looks good since it will make him less clunky

BisaknospSep 9, 20162 votes

same problem as taliyah clears waves too fast and roams to other lanes within 5 seconds with his ms he gets from e these are deserved early game nerfs they are keeping his late the same i guess which is fine but his early is definitely too oppressive

Th3 Ghost RiderSep 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

same problem as taliyah clears waves too fast and roams to other lanes within 5 seconds with his ms he gets from e these are deserved early game nerfs they are keeping his late the same i guess which is fine but his early is definitely too oppressive

You do realize lategame might be a luxury after these "nerfs/bufs" and you might never reach it so have fun with the changes

HolybambeirutSep 17, 20161 votes

His lategame is not that good btw. Yes if you get ignored u will eventually deal a lot of dmg, but usually what u do is slow and CC and let others do the dmg and to do that u must expose yourself and be killed quite easily . His early is the only stage of the game where he's STRONG. (and its not like he's omnipresent or omnipotent, if he shoves he uses mana withouth which he cannot fight, and they're capitalizing on this weakness increasing the mana cost AND lowering the dmg, so it's a double nerf that will completly cripple his early from the point of no return. NO MORE LV4 ROAMS so no snowball. You are independet with Sol only if u get early kills so taking this away will make him 100% teamdependat and basically a support. Feelsbadman

AlbuquerqueSep 10, 20162 votes

At first I really didn't like the sound of these changes, but upon further inspection I think these changes aren't too bad. It looks like its just trying to slightly nerf his early game wave clear.

Here, I did some math.

Let's say the AurelionSol in this situation has 300 AP total

Current damage:

Passive: 97+50 = 147 base damage (max W rank) + 35% AP (105) = 252 total damage

New damage:

Passive: 130+25 = 155 base damage (max W rank) + 35% AP (105) = 260 total damage

So it actually is a buff! I feel much better figuring this out. So it's a 25 damage nerf in the early game, but mid-to-late it's a very tiny buff. He'll still perform just fine, and if you're good with him and play smart till then you can take advantage of the very tiny buff.

DeoxraSep 15, 20161 votes

Ok seriously why don't u Riot guys changes Aurelions q? U can't recast his q instantly so every Fizz, Yi, Garen and who ever wants to hit u in our face is able to if ur Flash or ult is on CD. This Champ just to be really funny but if a "casual" player with a ping like more then 30 can't do anything against the problem. He just feels unplayeable

BlezzybSep 18, 20161 votes

wow why does RIOT always nerf the harder to play champions and buff the potato easy to play champs..why dont you reward players for mastering the harder to play champions by making them strong. No one wants to see champs with no skill being spammed like vlad. You are cutting the star damage in half AND making the mana cost go up...are u serious? I get that from pro players hes strong but the pro players are such a small % of the community. No one even plays aurelion sol because hes so hard to play and nerfing him will mean dedicated players will give up on him now too...