Ranked placement and the climb

Killer1829··1 votes·591 views

I contacted your support group about the way you all place people into their respective ranks. And about progression through the season. I was told it was a team-based game, so it goes by how your team plays. I understand slightly why you all do that. But I don’t understand how the system for climbing will help you get to the tier you should be at. If I get constant master performances and my team still loses; then my LP will never reflect my individual skill. Not even remotely. It’s like looking at someone’s win rate for a champion, and then not caring about how they did during those games. And I still don’t really understand how you can place someone without their individual performance being put into account in the first place. I feel that you all place people too dependent on their past ranks as well. A new season should be a fresh start. Not a burden to have to climb even farther than the season before. I know it’s hard to change the system to include something as broad as the individual performance. But the game just isn’t really fair at all without it in my opinion. With my individual performance over the last 20 games I’m high up gold, maybe platinum. And I’m stuck in bronze 4 right now. I just don’t have the time to be playing for multiple hours to maybe climb one tier. Maybe you all could implement something like a challenge to gain more LP by facing a team with higher ranked people? I feel my skill is above most players in bronze except the ones who shouldn’t be bronze. They call it elo hell, and I understand why. It’s because there are a lot of players that shouldn’t be there that seem to be dragged down by the players who should. The support woman told me you’re the only constant in your game. So playing better is the only way to climb. But when your whole team is the deciding factor; it makes it very taboo as to whether or not you can. I don’t want to be the person to blame the system and the rest of my team. But it seems that they decide where I place more than I do individually. I don’t feel it’s right. Any other good ideas would be greatly appreciated for LP acquisition and placement. But individual performance is the best idea in my eyes. Because when/if you get to higher tiers you could still carry or be carried by the system with the way it is now. And I think individual performance is the key to a fair game. Thanks a lot for your time. Have fun and good luck!

28 Comments

La Belle Sauvage1 votes

Last season I placed in Bronze 5 and it was accurate. I only started playing in the last part of season 6. I hadn't even picked a main as a support. By the end of the season 7 I climbed to Silver 5 (peaked at Silver 4).

I feel the should remove placements all together.

Let's take me as an example. I finished Silver 5, so when this season started, (assuming my system was in place) I should start in Silver 5. No matter where you finish in a division, that division is now your base division.

If Riot really wants to have a "soft reset" (whatever that means) they could shift all players down by one except the 5's since they're already at the bottom of the division.

Example at the start of a season after you finished in Silver.

If you were Silver 1 next season you start in Silver 2. Silver 2 starts in Silver 3 Silver 3 starts in Silver 4 Silver 4 starts in Silver 5 Silver 5s remain in Silver.

But I really don't like moving players down after a hard season of work. I see no reason to move players down at all.

More fair is, players should start every season where they finished, but with 0 LP.

Killer18292 votes

That’s definitely understandable. They would have to start new players somewhere though. So, you’d want the same way of placing for their first season; then after that keep the same rank or go one rank down until 5?

La Belle Sauvage1 votes

{quoted}

That’s definitely understandable. They would have to start new players somewhere though. So, you’d want the same way of placing for their first season; then after that keep the same rank or go one rank down until 5?

All new players would be placed in Bronze 5.

La Belle Sauvage1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bello Bagheera,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M6161esg,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-31T17:58:21.388+0000)

All new players would be placed in Bronze 5.

I mean if you're a Smurf you won't be there long. I see no reason why B5 isn't the entry point for all new ranked play.

Subdue1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bello Bagheera,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M6161esg,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-31T17:59:26.935+0000)

I mean if you're a Smurf you won't be there long. I see no reason why B5 isn't the entry point for all new ranked play.

Most people are average. That means that wherever the entry point is, that's where most people will end up. Starting everyone at Bronze 5 just means that there will be no visible differentiation for anyone currently silver or lower.

La Belle Sauvage1 votes

{quoted}

Most people are average. They means that wherever the entry point is, that's where most people will end up. Starting everyone at Bronze 5 just means that there will be no visible differentiation for anyone currently silver or lower.

Yes, that's the idea. If you never played lol before and the current season is your first ranked season then you are placed in B5.

All players above B5 stay we're they are within Bronze at the star of the season. That mean brand new players and B5 vets will be in the same subdivision in Bronze.

I don't see a problem with that.

Subdue1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bello Bagheera,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M6161esg,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-31T18:07:49.662+0000)

Yes, that's the idea. If you never played lol before and the current season is your first ranked season then you are placed in B5.

All players above B5 stay we're they are within Bronze at the star of the season. That mean brand new players and B5 vets will be in the same subdivision in Bronze.

I don't see a problem with that.

No, you misunderstand. Players that are silver now would end up in bronze 5,because the average player's rating would become bronze 5.

La Belle Sauvage1 votes

{quoted}

No, you misunderstand. Players that are silver now would end up in bronze 5,because the average player's rating would become bronze 5.

I suppose you're right I don't understand what you're getting at.

If for whatever reason I win the Nobel peace prize for this and they implement the system I'm advocate for than no. If I finish Silver, next season that's where I would start.

All new players start in Bronze 5, and any pkayers who finished there would start the next season there too.

Sorry I don't know what your trying to point out.

Unker1391 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bello Bagheera,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M6161esg,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-31T17:58:21.388+0000)

All new players would be placed in Bronze 5.

I agree with this but it creates a dilemma. New players start with a base MMR that is around silver 3 (in an elo system the base is the average for all players so that can't change)

Since matchmaking uses MMR, and not ranking, the perception will be that mid silver is getting matched with low bronze. Wouldn't that create even more complaints? I would have a problem with it but as long people believe that rank drives matchmaking, there will be complaints.

The other option would be to make the base MMR be bronze 5, but then 50% of the player base would be stuck there.

La Belle Sauvage1 votes

{quoted}

I agree with this but it creates a dilemma. New players start with a base MMR that is around silver 3 (in an elo system the base is the average for all players so that can't change)

Since matchmaking uses MMR, and not ranking, the perception will be that mid silver is getting matched with low bronze. Wouldn't that create even more complaints? I would have a problem with it but as long people believe that rank drives matchmaking, there will be complaints.

The other option would be to make the base MMR be bronze 5, but then 50% of the player base would be stuck there.

Right in this magical system I concocted all new players get a MMR of B5. (I hadn't realized new players start with an MMR of Silver 3, how do you know that's true?).

Unker1392 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bello Bagheera,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M6161esg,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-01-31T18:28:31.464+0000)

Right in this magiccal system I concocted all new players get a MMR of B5. (I hadn't realized new players start with an MMR of Silver 3, how do you know that's true?).

ELO systems are a net zero ranking. A base is set (can be anything). After a battle winners gain and losers drop the same amount. How much depends on the expected result. New players will always start at the base since it is unknown what the actual skill level is.

So while I don't know as a fact that new players start at silver 3, I can look at a site like op.gg and see that the 50th percentile for ranked players falls right around there.

La Belle Sauvage1 votes

Thanks for the follow up. Otherwise you used your brain. I should use mine sometimes ;)

Subdue1 votes

@OP: What at you think your skill is relative to the player base and what it actually is, those two things are rarely the same.

Killer18291 votes

That’s true. But individual skill will find a median; whereas just wins and losses could take a turn for the worse out of your control. LOLSUMO has been my point of reference. And I’ve never had a bronze performance. But yet I’m in bronze. The point I’m trying to make is. If they keep the system limited to wins and losses, then anyone can int and still win, or make their whole team lose. And with wins and losses the way you play, in relation to your rank, is slashed to 1/5 instead of 1. You are basically a drone playing a game for your team. Not with them. What I’m trying to say is. Instead of you being ranked as to how YOU play as 1 person. You’re ranked as to how the TEAM plays. And you’re just 20% or 1/5th of a factor. You get why it’ll never be fair with wins and losses?

Unker1391 votes

{quoted}

That’s true. But individual skill will find a median; whereas just wins and losses could take a turn for the worse out of your control. LOLSUMO has been my point of reference. And I’ve never had a bronze performance. But yet I’m in bronze. The point I’m trying to make is. If they keep the system limited to wins and losses, then anyone can int and still win, or make their whole team lose. And with wins and losses the way you play, in relation to your rank, is slashed to 1/5 instead of 1. You are basically a drone playing a game for your team. Not with them. What I’m trying to say is. Instead of you being ranked as to how YOU play as 1 person. You’re ranked as to how the TEAM plays. And you’re just 20% or 1/5th of a factor. You get why it’ll never be fair with wins and losses?

You are assuming you have never had a bronze performance. If you are truly better than your MMR, you will move up. Put me in a game with nine 5 year olds and I will win no matter how bad my teammates are. A gold level skill against bronze 5 skill will move up fast. A bronze 4 skill against bronze 5 will still move up but will take a lot more games.

Killer18291 votes

I’ve never had a ranked bronze performance that I’ve seen. My bad. But you’re saying that because you’re happy with your rank. I get it. But nine 5 year olds could beat you and you know it. If they played enough they could.

Subdue1 votes

{quoted}

I’ve never had a ranked bronze performance that I’ve seen. My bad. But you’re saying that because you’re happy with your rank. I get it. But nine 5 year olds could beat you and you know it. If they played enough they could.

Oh really? Here let me help.

https://i.imgur.com/vllejuC.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/sBX1TNp.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zIIXQUv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/rgid519.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3KoMssk.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/rUbkzaf.jpg

Killer18291 votes

Those still aren’t bronze on lolsumo

Killer18291 votes

It’s funny how you took the time to do that. I wouldn’t have gone to the lengths to point out people’s worst games like that.

Killer18291 votes

You haven’t had a positive k/d in 9 games and all you’ve played is aram. You’re being carried in your ranked matches as well. Go somewhere else with your petty garbage.

Subdue1 votes

{quoted}

You haven’t had a positive k/d in 9 games and all you’ve played is aram. You’re being carried in your ranked matches as well. Go somewhere else with your petty garbage.

Lol.

Maybe so dude, but I've been Gold+ in every season I've participated in since Season 1, and you're hard stuck in Bronze. :)

Killer18291 votes

Then you wouldn’t mind a 1v1

Killer18291 votes

I’ve never had a ranked bronze performance that I’ve seen. My bad. But you’re saying that because you’re happy with your rank. I get it. But nine 5 year olds could beat you and you know it. If they played enough they could. And if you had one player afk that’s even more of a possibility. And if you had one person feeding kills at the opposite side of the map. That’s more of a possibility. Stick to your 20% of your rank. I’d rather be 100% the reason why I’m ranked what I am.

Unker1391 votes

{quoted}

I’ve never had a ranked bronze performance that I’ve seen. My bad. But you’re saying that because you’re happy with your rank. I get it. But nine 5 year olds could beat you and you know it. If they played enough they could. And if you had one player afk that’s even more of a possibility. And if you had one person feeding kills at the opposite side of the map. That’s more of a possibility. Stick to your 20% of your rank. I’d rather be 100% the reason why I’m ranked what I am.

I didn't mean it as an insult and I'm sorry it came across that way. As a beginner, i was running 60% in blind picks and thought i was good until i started draft and it dropped to 20%...so now I'm trying to figure out what I can to improve MY play.

Its not that I am happy with my rank, but I do accept it as mine. Yes, I am 20% of the result of a game and I may not be able to control the outcome of that one game but over 50 or 100 games, the bad players on my team will also have games on the other team.

You cannot move up unless you are better than the players at your MMR and weaker players will not be able to stop someone from eventually moving up.

Killer18291 votes

Completely understandable. But the problem is time. It takes a lot of time just to move up one tier. I got to bronze 2 and almost dropped all the way down to bronze 5 again from bad situations. I just feel I won’t have the time with it just being won/loss.

Killer18291 votes

Basically what I’m trying to say is. With wins and losses being the only way to climb. Your initial placement shouldn’t matter all that much. Because if you’re good enough; then you should win the game. Isn’t that bs? I don’t agree with it at all. Any team bad enough can be the reason for a loss. Even if Faker is on the team. Riot doesn’t want people blaming their teams for a loss. And if wins and losses are the best system in their eyes, then keep the system. But I think being ranked bronze and getting constant gold and above games is stupid. I’ve put in the effort into every game to get nowhere because it’s so dependent on the rest of my team. And it makes me look good and bad at the same time. I’d rather get a silver game against a gold player than get a master game against a bronze player. But I never have a leveled playing field. It’s all too dependent on everyone but me to be fair enough in my eyes.

Speeedy1 votes

see i was silver 1 at the end of last season and got placed in low silver this season. now the biggest difference between climbing in this game vs other games is individual skill is more than enough to carry games because your team mates faults doesn't make the other team stronger.

I like to use CS:GO as a prime example since they have a much better ranking system. I have been playing CS since 1.3 and then when I made the switch from 1.6 to CS:GO ranks were already in place. The skill gap between the players was so vast that I was able to 1v5 the game pretty much till rank LE. Once I got to LE my win rate dropped from around 85+% to about 65-70%. Then when I got to SMFC I was about a 60-65% win rate. I hit global in less than 1 month.

Key differences about CSGO ladder to LOL ladder.

  • In CSGO ranks are more representative of a players skill unlike LOL. What i mean is 70% of the player base is Bronze 5 - Silver 1 (10 ranks possible) which leaves 30% of players between Gold 5 - Challenger (17 ranks). This is part of the fundamental problem of why games are so 1 sided. The bottom ranks hold 7% at each rank of players while the top 17 ranks have 1.7% of players at each rank. The pool for picking players at low rank is too great odds of you getting an unskilled player who rarely plays is much greater. Now if riot spread the ranks for the base 70% to like plat then you have 70% of the players at 20 ranks which reduces the risk of getting unskilled players. -MMR used in a Win/Loss system. Again this doesn't make sense. CSGO uses MMR only and your rank is a representation of your MMR. Riot mixes the two systems. You can be a Silver 1 with gold 2-3 lvl MMR. So when you are qued for a game you can be matched with pure gold lvl players while you are still in silver. This makes it much harder to string together enough wins to get to the next rank above you. Yes you gain more LP for wins and less for losses but I dont see this system working well together at all.
  • Final point is the punishment of 1 bad player is much worse in league. In CSGO if you have 1 bad player you can change positions with them or have them bait the other team out so you can use them for your advantage. In league 1 person who is not doing well (like the 0/9 arhi with less than 90 cs is 30 min I had the other day) you cant really do much about it because the enemy keeps getting gold and getting stronger each time they kill them even if its 75 gold. Its nearly impossible to overcome a 10+ kill enemy at the 15-25 min mark. Even if you have a small lead 1 Kill and even in CS on a better scaling champion you are going to most likely lose to the person who has given up 3-4 kills on the enemy.

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