Conqueror nerf for Mages are in the wrong direction

Melody of Mind·Dec 9, 2019·11 votes·10,018 views

Actually those ranged champions who are abusing Conqueror are all mages, as far as I'm concerned. As I see, it is abused more by mages than adcs because ranged abilities still gain 2 stacks. The nerf will make Conqueror not viable to adcs, who don't abuse it. So I feel that the correct nerf direction is making ranged champion skills only stack 1 too.

Or, actually, Riot is just having the concept that Conqueror is inherenetly a melee-only keystone?

79 Comments

Z3SIeeperDec 9, 20196 votes

I feel both nerfs are correct.

Conq shouldn’t be lasting 8s to begin with and mages shouldn’t be generating stacks faster than a melee champ.

Daddy AntsDec 9, 20194 votes

{quoted}

I feel both nerfs are correct.

Conq shouldn’t be lasting 8s to begin with and mages shouldn’t be generating stacks faster than a melee champ.

Especially when a Mage has to take little to no risk to land an ability.

Clockwork MouseDec 9, 20195 votes

I'd rather if mages were nerfed to the point where they had to hit you many times to hurt you. Their full combo should be enough to lower your HP by half. and then your other 4 team mates fight and in a big team fight it is not just a mage blowing up everyone with just their Q

ChaosReynDec 9, 201915 votes

The mages who can abuse conq cant 1 shot you. its more like, they spam you infinitely.

That's why it's only used on mages like Ryze and Cassio.

Clockwork MouseDec 9, 20195 votes

Even without it they still have god tier itemization. Every time I play a mage I have free magic pen, almost always 40% CDR, and I don't even have to sacrifice AP to do so.

IllabetheDec 9, 20194 votes

define sacrificing AP when ADs can build 500 AD when the old norm was about 360 max, and AP used to be 1200-1300 optimally.

Mage ratios tend to only be 60-70%. AD ratios tend to be 100% bonus AD or greater (some like Poppy, Udyr, Lee Sin, Sion, are all much much higher)

Also, but stacking CDR, I can guarantee you aren't tanky enough to take any hits. CDR heavy items don't generally have CC or additional attributes, HP etc. You're basically building a glass cannon, and hoping not to get tickled.

Clockwork MouseDec 9, 20196 votes

Doesn't matter if you can't take a hit, the other guy can't either.

IllabetheDec 9, 20192 votes

Depends. Some matchups it really is better to be situated as the person whose more mobile, tankier, simply because the other team has dashes, better warding, has longer range skill shots, and you can't enter their protected radius without dying, because strafing and juking 3-4 people at once is impossible.

Furthermore, game really isn't 1v1. If you glass cannon to 1v1 someone in a game of chicken, you have nothing left to deal with the other 4.

Think Rhaast Kayn. Think Nasus. Sion. Mundo. Even Garen. All work by resetting large amounts of health while also having significant damage. They trade your 1v1, kill you, and then reset, kill someone else.

GenericFunnyNameDec 9, 20197 votes

WHAT AD can build 500 AD. What elo are you playing in? old norm was 1200-1300 ap??? DID YOU PLAY BLIND PICKS ONLY WITH DOUBLE VEIGARS. I have mained Ahri in season 4-6 AND NEVER EVER I GOT ABOVE 1k. AND IM ONE OF THOSE R%%%%%S WHO BUILDS DOUBLE RABADON BECAUSE FUCK SURVIVABILITY. What the fuck are you on about with ad ratios? 100% bAD? How many champs do that? And also ifyou do that with your dumb r%%%%%ed idea of going 500ad on poppy lee sin sion or udyr I would like to see you try to play. Stacking 40% cdr and being tanky on mage is question of cdr rune cdr minor rune ludens and zhonya. Thats all you need.

IllabetheDec 9, 20191 votes

Anyone who has item 3071 and lethality items can build 500 AD.

It's called Transcendence.

And, just because you didn't use item 3003 item 3165 item 3089 item 3027 item 3128 back in the day, doesn't mean it didn't exist.

P.S. I can STILL pull off 1160 AP, so your 1000 AP is rediculous.

Having one or two non HP items is not the same as having 5 of them.

5 item 3071 Lee Sin is literally 552 AD, and tanky. Not the best build versatility, but it's THERE.

GenericFunnyNameDec 9, 20191 votes

https://i.imgur.com/5Zo1aGt.png https://i.imgur.com/dMrgUAj.png

GO PLAY RIVEN WITH BUILD LIKE THIS. 19.8k GOLD COST 0 MR 0 ARMOR. 1 SNARE YOU ARE DEAD. ONE CRIT YOU ARE ON HALF HP. And please do tell me about gathering storm and how its gona give you 60 ad by 40 minutes. Yeah in your elo 40 minute games can happen. Try to go gathering storm in actually relevant elo. Jesus fucking christ you can build this only if you are on bot game or smurfing.

Now for the standart AP https://i.imgur.com/4VfUfc3.png THIS IS YOUR BEST CASE SCENARIO CONSITENTLY ON CASSIOPEIA(A CHAMPION THAT BUILDS 6 ITEMS) ITS UNDER 1K AND ITS GONA GO OVER 1k ON 30+ MINUTES.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/game-durations

FUCKING READ IT. GAME LEGNTH GOES DOWN THE HIGHER YOU GO. EVEN IN YOUR ELO GATHERING STORM IS GONA ON AVERAGE BE WORTH ITS 20 MINUTE STATS.

I literally wasted 20 minutes of my life on your dumb silver ass. Stop talking about game balance WHEN YOU ARE LITERALLY AVERAGE AT THE GAME. YOU DONT KNOW THE GAME WHAT SO EVER. Yeah you can play your champs. Thats it. You have no idea about rest of it.

IllabetheDec 9, 20191 votes

I'm diamond II :)

RagnaveilDec 9, 20191 votes

Abusing mages I presume.

IllabetheDec 9, 20191 votes

If you call Nami a mage. and Morgana. But..... I also jungle. And I also occasionally play Illaoi, Riven, Udyr, Kha Zix, Ornn, Sion, Nidalee, Jinx, Kai Sa, Jhin, Rakan player.

There's a few others.

I'm trying Senna, but I can't honestly play her in D II yet; there's something I'm not getting about her kit. It feels like at least as support, she's severely gimped by the quality of her duo laner. If they're mechanically good (better at high elo), she reflects performance averages. If she's in a skill-poor elo, she seems to just be a casualty of a bad team some times. Like..... everyone dies and leaves her alone vs divers. Any game in low elo with a Leona/Blitz, my adc just suicides..... even on Ezreal..... who is a direct Blitz counter. And not once or twice. Like 0/5 suiciding. By then I just spend all game stacking, trying to snipe...... and then I run into the good ole (new) Support gold gimp for farming too much.

That, and they always clown fest a new objective every 30 seconds, never trying to farm or catch up in between. That doesn't seem to work with Senna. I can pull a 75% Participation rate on Nami and actually feel like I'm carrying low elo. I pull 75% on Senna, and feel like a joke and collateral damage from a dead team.

GenericFunnyNameDec 10, 20193 votes

https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=ILLABETHE You are what? A diamond 2? Really? Then how the fuck do you chain loose on champs like senna. How do you smurf in silver 2 and actually stay there for 800+ games? Or are you trolling 6/10 games to keep your alt in silver? If so I am reporting you to support because you just fucked over yourself buddy.

IllabetheDec 10, 20191 votes

God you have an ego.

I play over 3500 game a year. I also work 12 hour days 56 hours a week.

Guess what? When I get home, I want to play, but I don't want to risk my main account. You know...... fatigue and all? 4 year old with Autism awake at 8:00 pm and all?

And if you bothered to notice, I'm playing Senna as support. Which guess what? Makes me prone to Leonas. Adc feeds. leaves me behind, and I hardly ever even get the opportunity to scale enough to win. Every game someone leaves, or three lane feed syndrome. Senna isn't exactly the champion you want when her entire shpeel is relying on team to CC, front line, and scaling into a late game that never gets there.

P.S. THIS IS PRESEASON. Most people don't even touch a ranked account in Preseason because of the fact people outright troll and do whatever random BS they do.

P.P.S This account is dishonored, and was MMR screwed in Positional ranking when they cancelled it. I really don't care about it except for the skins, which I also have on my other smurfs and main (still money spent though)

GenericFunnyNameDec 10, 20193 votes

You literally sound like a little bitch. nananana i work 12 hour days 56 hours a week. My kid has autism. Do you even understand how fake this shit sounds? A person that has to work 12 hour shifts and has to take care of mentally challenged child DOES NOT HAVE TIME FOR 800 RANKED GAMES IN SINGLE SEASON. I COULDNT PULL THOSE NUMBERS WHEN I WAS AT HIGH SCHOOL. And if its true, dude I am sorry but what the fuck are you even doing with your life. Find a better job so you dont have to work your ass off instead of queing for another game. Also shut the fuck up with Senna support. Senna support is strong enough carry to carry games herself. If you are diamond 2 you can carry from any role. You literally pick morgana. Just build ap.

IllabetheDec 10, 20191 votes

If that sounds fake, it says more about you than me.

P.S. The fact you call someone with Autism mentally challenged suggests you don't have a clue what Autism is, and you really should go volunteer a bit to discover. I firmly believe that Autism is a blessing in disguise, because my son Auggie is extremely intelligent. He just has trouble expressing it. I get to potentially enjoy my son's innocence for many more years than the neurotypical child's parent. In many ways, his development is easier than an neurotypical child, simply because neurotypical children are outwardly destructive, more vindictive, and far more divisive. My son is loyal, dependent, and operates through guidance.

I know there are challenges with a child with autism going through school and then adulthood. Hence why I'm also active in my community as a supporter of our local AAMP program, and I am in the process if developing a job world for my son (if he should so choose to accept it) involving self employment/ industrial greenhousing, where I also plan to employ my local community's adults with special needs, once it's established.

So yeah. I do have a plan. I am active in getting there. My 56 hour a week job does get in the way of it. But..... you do what you have to until you can afford it, or until your family gets on board (my father owns/farms about 1000 acres, and I need some of that to accomplish this).

And honestly: My father knows about this game and the fact that for about 2 years I played it while babysitting my child after he was born - without work. Me working this 56 hour job is increasing my credibility with him. Not only that, I'm also active in structuring and framing this job I spend so much time on; When I got there, the company had just underwent a buyout, and the specific room in which I am working essentially had no rules. I'm using my business acumen in finance/economics to actively create that structure, with the involvement of the department superintendent. In other words; I'm not just doing factory work; I'm meeting my quotas (the same ones they set for my coworkers) while I'm stand-alone creating all the forms for my room to use, managing out technology, doing all my room's maintenance, doing all the ordering of parts, doing all the relations between the company and our vendors. My output is 50% higher than the next best person in my job, and I am credited with 32% of total production on a 4 man team.

But yeah. Not doing anything with my life.

I live on 4 hours of sleep.

My wife manages the day to day family planning.

P.P.S. You try to find a better job in middle America in an area with 5000-11000 population towns. In the real world, employers take as much leverage as they can in controlling workers, and in small town America, that means fixed wages based on job title, not seniority, long hours, and no other options. High skill trade jobs are few and far between, and the person who gets those jobs generally is in that job for 30+ years.

Try finding a job with a BA in economics in this size community. I dare you. I can't. If I want to, my only option is to create that job. Which means I need a job market. Which means I need a customer. Which means I need a product worth buying. Good luck.

Senna is not strong enough as support to carry a game.

GenericFunnyNameDec 11, 20191 votes

Oh buddy I do know what autism is, if you havent caught up yet maybe you have noted I have slight aspergers on top of that I am emotionally stunned, and no being autistic isnt blessing in disguise. The inteligence you are talking about isnt real, its ability to discover patterns more easily thanks to different neural paths formed for a cost of stunned growth in different areas case and point me, my college degree with 0 friends because I cant handle emotions.

Oh god can you please stop talking about your personal life and your sons future. Are you here to talk about your story time or league balance. Because all that means fuck all to me.

PLEASE SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT WORKING CONDITIONS IN AMERICA. YOU HAVE IT EASIER THAN 99% OF THE WORLD WITH EXCEPTIONS TO SWITZERLAND, MEMBERS OF BENELUX AND FEW INSANELY RICH COUNTRIES. YOU LITERALLY CAN TAKE YOUR ASS OFF MOVE TO DIFFERENT COUNTRY FIND A JOB A BUY A HOUSE ALL IN SAME WEEK. COME LIVE IN FUCKING MIDDLE EUROPE IN SLOVAKIA CZECH REPUBLIC POLAND BULGARIA OR OTHER SHITHOLES. WE HAVE TO LEARN 2 LANGUAGES FLUENTLY TO EVEN BE CONSIDERED EMPLOYABLE, WE HAVE TO WORK 34 YEARS TO BUY 1 ROOM FLAT. OUR WAGES ARE 3-5x SMALLER THAN YOURS AND ANYONE WITH BRAIN MOVES OUT OF HERE AS SOON AS THEY SCRAPE ENOUGH MONEY. YOU DONT KNOW SHIT ABOUT STRUGGLE OF FINDING EMPLOYMENT. IM A PROGRAMMER THAT IS DECENTLY PAYED IN MY COUNTRY FOR A JUNIOR BUT A MCDONALDS EMPLOYEE IN AMERICA MAKES 2x MY FUCKING WAGE. GO FUCK YOURSELF.

SENNA ISNT STRONG ENOUGH SUPPORT TO CARRY A GAME? REALLY BUDDY? https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Soulo+Q I GUESS THIS PERSON DOESNT FUCKING EXIST THEN. Please shut the fuck up already.

InfernapeDec 9, 20194 votes

{quoted}

define sacrificing AP when ADs can build 500 AD when the old norm was about 360 max, and AP used to be 1200-1300 optimally.

Mage ratios tend to only be 60-70%. AD ratios tend to be 100% bonus AD or greater (some like Poppy, Udyr, Lee Sin, Sion, are all much much higher)

Also, but stacking CDR, I can guarantee you aren't tanky enough to take any hits. CDR heavy items don't generally have CC or additional attributes, HP etc. You're basically building a glass cannon, and hoping not to get tickled.

ADs not called a 5 stack Rengar and a mid game Jhin maybe.

IllabetheDec 10, 20191 votes

[img]https://i.imgur.com/GNOPd2D.png[/img]

This is without Infernal Drakes, and Even 5 Black Cleavers hits 521 AD on lee with 3600 HP.

Daddy AntsDec 9, 20196 votes

I love when Mage players try to make excuses for their classes clearly over the top itemization.

item 3191 for example is one of if not the most broken item component in the entire game. Receiving offensive and defensive stats just for killing 30 minions omegalul.

item 3135 shouldn't be 40% penetration (needs to go back to 35%) when Magic Resist itemization is fucking garbage as it stands.

item 3020 shouldn't be 18 pen, needs to go back to 15.

item 3089 is miles better than it's AD counterpart (Infinity Edge)

Mage players think their class is "neglected by Riot" when the reality is they're smothered by Riot.

IllabetheDec 9, 20193 votes

I'm an equal opportunity player, and no. On average, AD guarantees much more secure kills than AP.

The only reason you hate mages is in your account Icon: Adc. Adcs are stubborn and almost NEVER build Magic resist, so they really are out of touch with what Magic resist can do.

Thank goodness I can go Senna with Grasp and get item 3065 item 3022 item 3814 item 3147 item 3009 item 3857 and just laugh at mages.

(or Pyke)

You seriously cry about a lot of late game crap.

And no. Death cap is NOT better than IE. IE is a MUCH earlier power spike, and ensures a mechanic that AP doesn't even have access to: Double damage +25%

I want you to think about something. Yi without crit vs Yi with Crit. What does a Guinsoo's based AD Yi without crit do? Well.... solo 1v1 he destroys 1 person..... and then dies because while normal auto attacking, opponent bursters pop him.

What does Crit Yi do? Oh right, he can crit 3-4 people for 1100 starting a fight, probably kill 1, and then kill the others in succession, because the crits fuel his life steal (another MAJOR bonus of crit vs AP)

There isn't near as much mag pen/reduction in the game as Armor Pen reduction. You can drop a 400 Armor champ to 35 Armor with the items in game. You can drop a Magic resist champ with 286 Mag resist to 125. Huge difference in baseline cap on penetration/reduction. We don't even have Wit's end anymore, and not many builds even employ item 3135 item 3124 item 3165 item 3020 in the same build. Only Teemo or Kayle would even conceivably do that.

Voluug13Dec 9, 20193 votes

Deathcap isnt better that IE purely because ADCs can function without a mana item and so rush IE, while mages have to rush a mana engine item to function in lane and teamfighting.

And even numbers-wise, IE and ADC items in general scale on a whole another dimension that AP items.

Sir SaltarinDec 9, 20193 votes

ADs can build 500 AD

Yeah sure, on all games you see ADs with 500 ad.

IllabetheDec 10, 20191 votes

[img]https://i.imgur.com/GNOPd2D.png[/img]

Going pure Black Cleavers can get Lee to 521 AD with 3600 HP.

(And this is BEFORE Infernal Drakes or Barons)

LightswornLanceDec 10, 20191 votes

I like how you go a redundant build with transcendence in runes and CDR boots and Blue buff. A normal build on lee sin is item 1412 item 3071 item 3053 item 3026 item 3047 item 3143

Thats 124 base + 5 from runes + 60 + 40 + 62 + 45 = 336 even with double AD runes and swapping for item 3812 last item he gets 421 AD.

IllabetheDec 10, 20191 votes

Lee Sin only gets 60 AD from a item 3053 and generally doesn't need the shield....

GA and Randuin's are just choices people are making to run the averages.

4-5 Black Cleaver actually was meta right after Transcendence came out.

LightswornLanceDec 10, 20191 votes

Lee sin has 124 base AD at level 18 so he gets 62 from steraks. Yeah right after transcendence came out, and then people realized if was stupid and stopped doing it.

IllabetheDec 10, 20191 votes

No. They were winning hard and getting 40 KDA games because no one could penetrate their 3600 HP before he just deleted them.

But instinct says not to repeat items, so they moved away from it and back toward normal builds. It's still extremely viable.

Sir SaltarinDec 10, 20191 votes

That's cool for practice mode.

You know why you don't see it in your actual games ?

Because it's as trash meme build.

IllabetheDec 10, 20191 votes

Nope. Lee Sin 5 Cleaver was actually a meta build right after Transcendence came out. 3600 HP on a snowball early game sniping champ is the definition of broken.

But..... as time went on, people stopped building it in favor of playing more to the averages.

BoomerDec 10, 20191 votes

During the time when AD was capped at around 300, mages not named Veigar could get 600-700 AP, with little-to-no CDR, and utility only in the form of Zhonya's. Your "1200-1300 optimally" is ridiculous, unless you're referring to the last 2 seasons...in which case AD was at around 500 then too, and honestly anything over 1-1.1k is still an absurd number without lots of Gathering Power stacks.

IllabetheDec 10, 20191 votes

item 3027 Season 5: 80 + 50 AP item 3040 Season 5: 80 + 3% of Max mana (If you have 3600 Mana, that's 108 additional AP, or 188 AP) item 3089 Season 5: 120 AP /35% increased AP item 3165 Season 5: 80 AP 500 Mana / Season 6 100 AP / 500 Mana item 3285 Season 5: 120 AP

Assuming we stop there, and have shoes,

Ferocity/Sorcerer increases AP by 2% Natural Talent 15 AP

Plus up to about 24 AP in Runes.

That's 677 Base AP. With Death Cap (the next in order of operations) that's 914 AP.

With the 2% increase, that's 932 AP.

#With 3 Infernal Drakes, in Season 6, this was 1,230 AP.

This is current meta with a similar build:

[img]https://i.imgur.com/oz0EOfw.png[/img]

Notes:

Jungle item, not pure Luden's so less AP
This is only 1 Infernal, at 21 Minutes.

BoomerDec 10, 20191 votes

Notice how I was comparing the stats?

The MYMU on 5.13 made these numbers true. Before that they were lower. At the same time, with 3 items (BT, IE, ER) and 110 base AD, AD champions could easily get 350 AD without runes or masteries.

During the same time that AD champions could get ~300 AD, y'know, before damage creep started in season 5, mages were getting around 600-700 AP and AD champions were getting around 300 AD.

Furthermore, using RNG drake spawns is a poor justification, IMO.

That being said, I should not have said "the last 2 seasons." That was, perhaps, misleading.

BoomerDec 10, 20191 votes

Just saw your edit. I did say anything OVER 1-1.1k is absurd in the current meta without lots of Gathering Power.

Something is fucky on that build though. You have 80CDR, 20 nashor's, 20 seraph's, 10 lichbane, 10 lucidity boots, 10 runic echos, and 10 transcendence. That's 40 over cap, which should be 80 AP, at 2 AP per CDR over cap. Why is it calculating as though it's 3 AP per 1 CDR over cap? Even if you have CDR stat shard, that's still only 100 AP worth of stats.

Not only that, but this build capitalizes on three things a lot. A ton of extra mana combined with seraph's and deathcap to compound it to a ridiculous level, plus the bonus (currently bugged?) AP from transcendence.

Let's do a thought experiment here with an absolutely ridiculous build.

Xerath, level 18, 833 mana.

If he has seraph's, death cap, luden's, spellbinder, zhonya's, and roa, transcendence, and eyeball collection (even though if he were going domination he'd take cheap shot)

He gets 58 from runes (including 20 from being 10CDR over cap, 20 from eyeball collection, and 18 from adaptive force)

3233 mana = 97 AP (96.99, close enough)

100 roa, 120 spellbinder/deathcap, 147 searph's, 75 zhonya's, and 90 luden's = 710 x 1.4 = 994 AP, with no boots, and a fucking spellbinder on Xerath. It would take 10 minutes of gathering power to break 1k.

The build you are using on Eve there, to capitalize on the factors I stated above, is not something of which most champions are capable. Even with a purely insane build on a traditional mage, it still takes a lot to break 1k AP. Gathering power, infernal drakes, etc. Getting above 1.2-1.3k takes even more. And, this is not even factoring in the notion that games almost never go beyond 30 minutes.

It is rare for a game to go to 6 items, even rarer for a game to go long enough to get a lot of gathering power. You said your elo is diamond, the average game time there is 27 mins. If we assume 150 gold per wave, no missed waves, that's 11,605 gold at 27 minutes, assuming no kills. 16,600 gold is required for that build. That means you'd need 17 normal-gold kills to finish it at 27 minutes, assuming no missed minion waves (can't be bothered calculating jungle gold). It's completely unrealistic and unreasonable.

IllabetheDec 10, 20191 votes

You're missing blue buff, and yeah. CDR scaling runes.

CDR scale gives 2 times as much stats as base adaptive.

The reason I used Eve is because Eve is one of the champions who can in 30 min. Assassinate. Assassinate Assassinate.

P.S. We're discussing potential, not what happens every game. And every game's carry generally DOES get close to 6 items.

BoomerDec 10, 20191 votes

So, without blue buff, and because your stat shard wouldn't be fully online at that point, you'd be under 1k AP in a standard game.

I understand very well the concept of timing windows, however you're really tacking a lot on here in the name of "what is possible." 40% uptime at the absolute maximum on the blue, RNG infernal dragon spawn, abusing the combination of mana and CDR + seraph's and transcendence on a very specific set of items that maybe 3 champions in the game can properly utilize together. For that matter, if we're going to look purely at potential why not calculate gathering power as though the game has been going on for 4 hours?

That being said, my argument was never about whether or not it's possible. I said above a number, higher than you're showing here with all of those factors, is ridiculous. Which it is. In addition to this, my stance was simply in argument to your claim about comparative numbers. When ADs could get 300 AD, APs were getting 600-700 AP. When ADs could get beyond 400 AD is when APs were getting over 1000 AP at their zenith. Nothing to do with potential, all comparative.

IllabetheDec 10, 20191 votes

What were we debating to begin with? Oh right. AP decreasing over time versus access to AD increasing over time, but not much changing about the skill based ratios to balance that.

The build I mentioned above for AP would have had 1230 AP on a common champ in a 3 infernal game. Which in season 6 was about 1 in 5 games. And it usually occured before 29 minutes.

Tier 3 Gathering Storm is feasible and realistic.

You said that in old builds, above 600-700 was ridiculous. I'm proving 914+ was COMMON.

When AD averages were 300, AP was getting 914.

When AD began getting 400, AP was getting 1050.

When AD is getting 500, AP is still more or less getting 1050.

Trying to portray them getting bloated at the same rates comparatively is ludicrous.

BoomerDec 10, 20191 votes

You're one step ahead with AP though.

Your season 5 example of 914 AP is when ADs were getting 400+ AD

Before that, when ADs were getting around 300 AD, is when mages were getting 600-700 AP.

That's what I'm arguing here.

Damage creep is not something that has discriminated against anyone, even tanks. So, if that's your stance, then we're actually on the same page. I'm just being pedantic about your exact numbers and timeframes.

IllabetheDec 10, 20191 votes

Season 5 stats were 914. Season 4 Stats were almost just as high, except ROA had 10 less AP, and Death Cap was 30%, not 35%. That's it. Everything else was the same.

I'm not going to comment on Season 3 or before, because I joined in Season 3 and wasn't a fluent player until Season 4.

BoomerDec 11, 20191 votes

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-513-notes#patch-ability-power-itemization

I think you should look at this, if you think season 4 was the same as season 5. Luden's was added in season 5 as well.

Season 5 also introduced mastery keystones, which added a ton of power to the game compared to season 4.

IllabetheDec 11, 20191 votes

That's a link to 5.13..... and some AP items shrunk while others increased. The per game AP stayed about the same; they just wanted to move away from item 1058 so they restructured item components.

Luden's replaced Deathfire Clasp, which was 120 AP 10% CDR.

No Keystones increased or decreased AP. However, Season 2014/15 Capstone Mastery did have a heal/magic damage enhancing mastery.

Furthermore, the addition of Keystones HEAVILY favored AD; Thunderlord's only affected (like now) about 10 Mages. The rest of its users were all AD. All Ferocity Keystones were designed for AD, except in a couple special cases (Xerath/Ziggs) Deathfire Touch. Stormraider's Surge was designed for Assassins, but was heavily underused because of Thunderlord's superiority.

The only Keystone that really saw reliable service in Season 5 outside of AD was Windspeaker's Oath for healers/enchanters.

BoomerDec 12, 20191 votes

One item shrunk, everything else grew. Only Zhonya's had its AP reduced. You are correct about DFG.

If only 5 items had AP increased by 20 each, or 100, plus the 5% from deathcap, that's already an extra 140+ AP added to the game, without considering the power of keystones or minor masteries.

You're also correct that no KEYSTONES gave AP, however....

https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Natural_Talent https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Sorcery_(Season_2016_Mastery)

When I said "added power to the game" I was talking more about general damage, than raw stats. Having masteries with ratios is like adding a new passive ability to every champion, which simply did not exist before.

Can't really disagree about keystones favoring AD, but that seems somewhat irrelevant (warlord's Yas and Tryn can fuck right off.) I do, however, heavily disagree with your assertion that only approximately 10 mages used TLD. It was the go-to for anyone who was not a DFT user. The latter of which was almost exclusively low-mid CD control and DoT mages. Brand, Xerath, Viktor, Vel'Koz, Malz, the rare AP Nasus, etc. Almost all other mages used TLD.

I'm assuming you forgot about the resolve tree, BTW. Because ADCs did not use those keystones, or perhaps you thought it went without saying. That is, however, 3 more keystones they didn't use.

Worst JG WinsDec 9, 20195 votes

{quoted}

The mages who can abuse conq cant 1 shot you. its more like, they spam you infinitely.

That's why it's only used on mages like Ryze and Cassio.

Ryze can definitely one shot people.

Hi Its SciroccoDec 9, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Clockwork Mouse,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M1ER7Trw,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-12-09T05:32:54.035+0000)

I'd rather if mages were nerfed to the point where they had to hit you many times to hurt you. Their full combo should be enough to lower your HP by half. and then your other 4 team mates fight and in a big team fight it is not just a mage blowing up everyone with just their Q

Ryze level 3 e w q and Take healf ur health ... Late game champion btw

RagnaveilDec 9, 20191 votes

Its almost like mana ratios are a bad design if they are allowed to exist with low mr pools.

Daddy AntsDec 9, 20191 votes

As far as I know, only ADC's who use Conqueror are Draven, Twitch and Ezreal.

I do agree with you though, Ranged basic attacks only apply 1 stack so why do abilities need to apply 2 when it's less risky for a ranged to land an ability than a melee?