I love that you nerfed Zoe, I hate how you did it

bertuzzy·2/23/2018, 1:24:16 PM·15 votes·1,027 views

Now, now, please put down your pitchforks, I know, I've been on the receiving end of a fog of war oneshot. It's not fun suddenly staring at a grey screen. I'll also admit I played a bit of Zoe because she just feels fun to play, something I missed in this era of control mages, but I digress. I feel like the nerfs in 8.4 are heading in the wrong direction. I'll try to explain why.

So let's address the infamous NALCS oneshot. Many people claimed a 4 item + NLR baron buffed Zoe shouldn't be able to oneshot an ADC who has a QSS. Zoe's AP in the clip is around 700 give or take (not sure what runes Febiven had for secondary) with 36magic pen. A level 17 Tristana has 38 MR, so 68 total with QSS. Void staff cuts that to 41, and the flat pen cuts it to 5. So at this point every mage with Zoe's items would be dealing almost true damage to a Tristana with QSS.

Zoe by design SHOULD be able to one shot someone in that scenario, otherwise you'd have no reason to play her over any other long rage mage ( Xerath ). The problem is the fact that she can spam QRQ on a 4 second cooldown, over and over and over until one of them hits.

I think there're 2 ways to fix this without gutting her damage and putting her in the state she currently is, where you can't even 70% a carry with no MR after landing E and a max range Q.

Make her Q similar to Fiora's. Long CD if it misses, refund a percentage if it hits, say 60-70%. Something like 25 seconds late game means even at 40% cdr (which she rarely gets in her build) would still put her at 15 seconds if she goes for a hail mary and misses, which would give the other team a window of opportunity to engage on her. If it hits, it's down to 4.5 seconds, much like live. This way you force her to play around her team, or land her bubble for a guaranteed hit, without killing her team fight ability when she gets going. This also slows down her early game waveclear a bit, meaning you could revert the 8.4 Q-Passive nerf.

The second option is to shift more of her Q power onto her E. Bubbles are harder to hit and have a longer cooldown. Hell you could even increase it even more. Her E already amps the damage of other abilities/attacks, but you could make it so it specifically amps only her Q damage as an extra, while lowering the numbers on the Q. So an 8.3 patch QRQ hit at max range would be the same as an adjusted E + QRQ at max range after amplifying the damage. This way you make blocking an even bigger priority for the enemy team, and make it so that it won't hurt them as much for doing it.

The thing that feels like the absolute worst about 8.4 Zoe is the removal of the More Sparkles! from all Q targets. I get that she had way too easy of a time waveclearing, but it just feels so clunky leaving adjacent targets at awkward hp numbers. If you wanted to stop the waveclear into roam situation, making her Q behave like fiora would slow her down like I said, or you could make her Q deal less damage to minions, but leave the rest of the functionality as it was in 8.3. Damage nerfs always feel better than functionality nerfs. Those only serve to make the champion feel clunky. Example 4 seconds added to Kat's shunpo. I would have honestly preferred it did no damage, but kept the old cooldown. But I digress.

So yeah, it's fun to hate on Zoe, it's justified for the most part, and she indeed needed nerfs. But what we got in 8.4 is really killing the soul of the champion.

39 Comments

Serika Zero2/23/2018, 3:33:52 PM13 votes

No, she shouldn't do that. No champion in the game should be able to literally 1 shot someone with just using an ability with a very short cooldown.

In Zoe's case, is a combination of her R and Q. Both having a CD of 5s, and 6.5s. Add to that some CDR like 30% and you got yourself a Zoe that can one shot people every 4.55 seconds, or every 5 seconds.

#That's just bullshit.

And that's why Zoe is hated for. Syndra has a point and click ultimate that can one shot people, but you know what? she has a 80s cooldown at max lv. With a same 30% CDR is goes down to 56 seconds, or 48seconds at 40% cdr.

Even if its point and click, she can only one shot squishy targets once every 48 seconds. Zoe, if the player is good, will Ace the enemy team with only one shots in 25 seconds...... Syndra would need 240 seconds to obtain the same feat. See the problem? Almost 10 times more.

If her Q (Zoe) had like a 20 or 30 or even 40 seconds cooldown (before cdr) , people would still find it annoying, but not as disgusting. But she needs it low on CD because she needs it to wave clear, so................. her damage has to drop, hard.

Fuck it, imagine if Yasuo had his ultimate Available every fucking 5 seconds. So that, every time he hits you with his 3rd Q, he could ult!!!! Imagine just how broken that shit would be!!! And yes, that's how broken Zoe and her kit is.

ps: tristana also had a shield from item 3190 active when she got 1shot. So, its not like a perfect kill that just happened. No, it was a overkill of overkills.

the weeaboo2/23/2018, 4:05:38 PM4 votes

As a Zoe player myself this makes me happy. They fucking dumpster'd her. I know people don't like being one shotted but that's how Zoe works and your proposed changes leave good Zoe's alone while shitting on bad Zoe's and I think that great.

all these people complain about being one shotted on a 5 second cooldown but somehow still make the argument on this thread against increasing the cooldown for bad Zoe's?

"But..but Syndra and one shot combo is on on longer cooldown!!!"

Yah no shit that's because Syndra, Orianna, Brand, etc. all have like 10x more utility in a teamfight so their damage is spread out. its not even a valid argument.

xelaker2/23/2018, 4:50:30 PM3 votes

no champ should be able to literally one shot anyone. get your cheesy ass power fantasy out of here

Malix Farwin2/23/2018, 9:17:20 PM3 votes

The problem with Zoe was not actually her balance/damage. Damage and balance wise overall she was sporting numbers very similar to other burst mages. The problem was her kit and the way she dealt damage. The 2 primary problems was in laning she felt very oppressive and post laning too much of her power was in 1 ability. Now if they wanted to move more power back into her E then they should at the very least trat the E like Fizz's R where even if you cleanse there should be a debuff to increase damage.

BeatzBoyFTW2/23/2018, 1:26:21 PM3 votes

Don't fucking copyright a title just to garner upvotes. That's not how it works.

jocomotion2/23/2018, 10:36:29 PM2 votes

Oh my god.... an actual argument and NOT a cry thread. I must be on the wrong game forum no way you play league of legends.

Rathar Dashing2/23/2018, 2:51:24 PM2 votes

I agree that Zoe didn't need most of the nerfs she got, and I agree they nerfed her in the wrong way she needed, but I don't think your solution is any better than 8.4's.

Fallen INFERNO2/23/2018, 5:29:17 PM2 votes

Oh be quiet people. Zoe was never overpowered. Just like every other champion, she was build with strengths and weaknesses. Her strengths? She does burst damage. Her weaknesses? EVERYTHING ELSE. If you even remotely know how to play against a zoe she really doesn't do that well. I'm not even claiming to be an amazing zoe and i've never played with or against a zoe as good as me. The zoe problem is simply kids whining because they don't want to learn how to play against her or they're mad they can't go full brainless and just dive her because she'll sleep you. Yeah, sorry you're going to need some tactics there buddy. Get over it and get some talent at the game.

Things they did fine:

  1. Allow her bubble to be cleansed and prevent sleep, duh. Idk about completely removing cd on it for successfully sleeping someone but i haven't seen the cds at max and such.

Things they did completely wrong:

  1. Take away her ability to clear any wave even remotely. "we want wave clear to be one of her obvious weaknesses". Ummmm what. A mage that can't use spells to clear wave because she only has one that can even remotely do so? Yeah great idea tards. This relates to all the nerfs and changes on her q. Destroyed it's slight aoe damage, lowered its damage altogether...smdh.

  2. Pretend they shifted her damage around to keep her relevant. Her only offenses ability is her q and you murdered it. "oh but we added irrelevant tiny bits of damage to her already non damage doing W. Oh wooooow good job.

I have no idea what it is about zoe that players can't just accept, but the truth is you were just bad at playing against her. Whether it was because you couldn't play against her the same way you play some other champs (which is the point of new and unique champs) or because you simply never learned her kit and realized you can solve 90% of your problems by being behind minions.

Edit: Oh and btw, the proof is in the bans. She is STILL banned just about every game i play in if not every game. of course this differs depending on the time of day when different skills of players are on. I played a game as her yesterday and people were STILL complaining she was overpowered. If you can't admit that it's just a problem of what i've mentioned earlier, you're just part of the problem

WubbaLubbaDubDab2/23/2018, 5:52:26 PM2 votes

zoe was just a bad design from the beginning they should have cancelled her after the feedback from pbe,she was created to 1shot thats her core element and thats why she has only 1 damaging ability nerfs will either do nothing or compelitely butcher her.

Z3Sleeper2/23/2018, 6:40:02 PM2 votes

They didn't just nerf her into oblivion, they buffed he more unused parts of her kit. Until we see how Zoes perform now that her W and passive do more damage, I don't want her receiving any changes.

I'm sure Zoes haven't even started going ham like intended and are still just sitting back launching Es and Qs.