The Support Minion Rule Sucks When Your ADC Is Nonexistent

AmineWeboo·Nov 24, 2019·41 votes·16,384 views

I really despise the support minion rule at the moment, since, if, like me, in one game, you're playing a support that takes Relic Shield or Steel Shoulderguards, and you ADC keeps reconnecting and disconnecting, you can't clear the wave. If you clear the wave, your support item gives you less gold once you get the support minion rule, and you really don't have any way to shove if both enemies recall. Then again, I understand the rule, because if you play something that runs the other two support items with the spellthief's passive in a solo lane, it generates a lot of gold. I just dislike how the rule works, and I wanted to see if anyone else had the same opinion as me.

26 Comments

Pendergast891Nov 24, 20199 votes

The minion poaching was added to neuter funneling strats. It worked fairly well at doing that, and i think riot is reluctant to have that return and would rather have supports feel worse off.

The current gold generation isn't healthy, but the anti-poaching should remain.

PartholonianNov 24, 20199 votes

I don't think they can or should design something like items around games with frequent DCs. Design is focused on making 5v5s balanced and fun.

Almost every 4v5 is going to suck regardless of what is or isn't on items and "this will make 4v5s even worse" shouldn't be a big consideration because only a tiny proportion of your games should be 4v5s, and if that's not the case, then that is a much bigger problem than item design.

AmineWebooNov 24, 20192 votes

I don't even feel like it's that much 4v5s, but just if you're alone in general. If your team has to clear a large wave bot, you can't really do it even if you have waveclear in your kit, because you're going to have that debuff for 3 minutes with a 50% reduction to the gold you get. It just sucks that it limits the amount of things you can do as a support alone, since some supports can look to exert pressure by themselves (ex. Brand, Pyke, Senna, Morgana).

Demented LemurNov 25, 20191 votes

If your playing support you generally shouldnt be seperating from your team anyways. Your role is to support other teamates if a wave needs to be cleared you let one of the other laners do it. All your items are meant to support teamates. Stick to your role

3TWarriorNov 25, 20192 votes

or if they're nowhere nearby and are not going to head there because they could be doing something more useful, the support can farm to gain back some of the gold the team has lost and potentially stop waves from crashing into your tower? Every minion killed by a minion or tower is 16+ gold that you do not get

JeandrieDec 12, 20191 votes

Honestly I don't even think this improves the 5v5 aspect. I complete my item quest and suddenly I'm punished for doing it quickly? If I have to protect base as a support, alone, I'm punished by getting way less gold than I would have gotten. And it's not like there's any compensation what-so-ever from anything else. Gold from managing vision is very low. This will just incentivize killstealing as a support because every other player in the game can get gold from farm, while Supp can't. Sure we can go kill some jungle stuff but that'll piss the jungler off, who also has a scuffed brute-forced item that they must buy or else get no exp or gold at all.

This is a symptom of a long-lasting problem in League's design. Smite and support items. Back before the smite items existed people could technically go other summoners in the jungle, and as long as they could clear it healthy they'd be fine exp and gold wise. What they gave up was objective control and weakened themselves to invade and buff steals. Riot apparently saw a problem with that and brute-forced junglers to take smite every single game, by making the jungle income tied to a scuffed item.

Support items have been nerfed, changed, pushed around left and right because they've, since they entered the game, been extremely problematic.

The funneling was just a symptom of jungle items being weird. The no-cs top strat was a symptom of support items. Instead of fixing core issues they ruin the fun for everyone else. Funneling can be fixed without this approach. Ask yourself this, was it a problems that supports could farm items after they got their supp quest done? I bet you didn't think so. Letting the supp get farm should be a team decision, not a decision made by some arbitrary rules.

Linna ExcelNov 24, 20196 votes

This just highlights yhe core issue of league: there are 5 champs per team but only 3.5 sources of income. Trying to fix the other two roles has been impissible for them because riot can't let extra income items be abused by laners.

However as you and others have pointed out, there are cases which show how bad the fixes can be. Particularly the ones where you need income like because you've got an afk.

SheikhEleazarNov 24, 20191 votes

If everyone had a source of income, game would suck

BlackXIVNov 24, 20196 votes

that's nonsense, the sources of income are contested and that's the core mechanic driving the whole summoner's rift gameplay

Ariel the CruelNov 25, 20192 votes

Dawngate had diversified incomes, and it was fantastic! Different game, granted. But I really wish Riot would adopt Dawngate's role system.

SpôôkedNov 25, 20191 votes

~~as if the game does not alrdy suck~~

Ashe mage ADNov 24, 20194 votes

I get you but if they remove it mid laners and top gonna abuse the items.

AmineWebooNov 24, 20191 votes

I feel like midlaners and toplaners would abuse the spellthief's passive more, so my solution would to be to probably keep the minion rule on those, but remove it on the relic passive items, kind of like last season where, if you last hit a minion with spellthiefs, it would stop the gold generation passive.

BugogNov 25, 20193 votes

That creates the situation where both bot laners can take support items.

Like the garren yuumi bot lane.

FCJAAAAGOOOONov 24, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ashe mage AD,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Lq2Nc0En,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-24T18:05:11.743+0000)

I get you but if they remove it mid laners and top gonna abuse the items.

tbf they aren't exactly the most dominant items in the game. I kinda miss when junglers occasionally invested in Sightstone, even if it was mostly Lee Sin. The fact that he had to actually invest in an item for free wards made him a bit healthier.

XJ99999999999999Nov 25, 20193 votes

item balance shouldn't be based around the possibility of someone disconnecting from a game, lol.

AmineWebooNov 25, 20191 votes

While that is true, I feel like this makes supports more useless without their ADCs, which I don't think is a good way for the support role to be going, especially since we have champions that can go support like Pyke, Senna, Lux, and Brand, who can easily blow up a carry or be a carry themselves.

Demented LemurNov 25, 20192 votes

A support should be disfunctional without a teamate a support that can blow up someone on their own is generally not healthy for the game and isnt really a support

Divine VoidlingNov 25, 20191 votes

That is ~10% ranked games - too small to bother? May as well not fix bugs that are a bit rare or balance champs with low player-base... Who bother...

FurriesAreHotNov 25, 20193 votes

I’ve played ALOT of both adc and support and I can confirm there are games where the support needs to do some farming in lane

Boo Koo GodNov 24, 20192 votes

The thing is that sure It reduces the gold but just take cs anyways. Sure its not optimal but in the long run you are still gonna get the gold. If my laners are not in mid and im playing a supp like vel or swain just clear the wave and roam if there is not a laner in the lane. The cs would be missed anyways so that's gold no one would get. Even if its reduced the gold generating item should make up for that.

Boo Koo GodNov 24, 20191 votes

or if your adc backed just last hit the minions cause again it is just lost gold and your not effecting the wave in anyway many times adc's back and then wave is under tower its best to last hit and stall the minions out if your adc is coming back.

TheGreatNinxNov 25, 20191 votes

Tbh I am not sure why riot didn't do this but make the item. Support only? Like how you got range and melee only? Do it for supports. Sure this will limit off pick supports down in the bot lane but at the same time I don't feel like the support role start to change into what the top role is right now if they continue down this path. Basically what the top lane role is atm "If you don't got a lane you can play in then go top"

SylphicNov 26, 20191 votes

This thread is talking about supports feeling useless with an afk adc yet literally every bot lane match up is decided by the better support.

Oh ok.

AmineWebooNov 26, 20191 votes

While this is true, the ADC does the majority of the damage in the lane. The support mostly makes picks and plays so that the ADC can right click them to death. One of the only ways I've seen a support get kills in a 2v1 bot lane is by hooking them into tower or baiting likewise. Either that or if they make stupid stays with very low hp, so that a Soraka can q e auto them.

SylphicNov 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

While this is true, the ADC does the majority of the damage in the lane. The support mostly makes picks and plays so that the ADC can right click them to death. One of the only ways I've seen a support get kills in a 2v1 bot lane is by hooking them into tower or baiting likewise. Either that or if they make stupid stays with very low hp, so that a Soraka can q e auto them.

Except in cases like Bard, Brand, Fiddlesticks, Karma, Lulu, Lux, Morgana, Nami, Nautilus, Pyke, Rakan, Senna, Swain, Velkoz, Xerath, and Zyra. All of the other supports either soak up ridiculous amounts of damage or provide a ridiculous amount of utility, all of which ADCs can't handle unless their support at least matches the enemy support.