Imbalances are cool!

RSCurious··13 votes·2,010 views

Recently, when playing the game itself and patrolling the forums looking for interesting news, I've noticed a trend. Not an unexpected trend as it's created by the mechanic they're utilizing, but a trend that unfairly lashes out on the devs for something they're doing well. That trend is to haphazardly say that a champion is op or unbalanced, that a nerf was too much or that they shouldn't have changed a champion. Usually this happens at the discretion of the people who play them or play against them the most without stopping to consider why it was done.

A quick disclaimer for posterity's sake, I'm not a developer or an expert on the subject, I'm just someone who takes it from a different standpoint. I play league more for the aspects of fun that it grants rather than the elements of competitiveness, hence playing for over a year and still remaining unranked, although I was thinking about playing this season. So, when examining aspects of the game I like to examine for why they are fun rather than why they're not. Which has lead me into the train of thought that are imbalances are cool.

The video I linked summarizes it up pretty nicely, and it's made by people who actually are developers, so people who know a lot more about the topic and intricacies than I do, but to summarize; -Imbalances are cool. They are done intentionally with the intent of changing the meta of the game. -No imbalance is imperfect, or broken. Meaning that no one champion is blatantly overpowered to any other champion. -Imbalances are necessary to keep the game interesting. It's an evolving game, if everything was perfectly balanced, then nothing new would ever be added, and nothing would be changed, making it stagnate. -Imbalances are fair. It prevents the "top tier" of players from establishing strategies and dominating with them based on efficiency, as well as allowing everyone the opportunity to create new strategies. -Imbalances are interesting. They keep you on your toes, force you to play new champions and create new metas, not drastically, but enough to be fun.

If you didn't think the game was fun, you wouldn't play. If every little thing riot changed didn't keep you on the edge of your seat, you wouldn't play. In this case, the irritation comes from your established routines being messed up by the meta, and from the perspective of someone who purely plays for fun rather than to win, it's this changing meta that makes it interesting. And it's interesting to watch the people I am playing against change their play styles to match the new meta as well.

So before calling a champion out on how op or bad they are after a patch, consider why they were made that way, and who they are good against rather than just calling names haphazardly. No champion is bad, they each just have their strengths and weaknesses. A working example would be that on a regular basis I hear blitzcrank get called OP, but morgana counters him very well, and that doesn't make either of them stronger just good against their counterparts. As someone who mains supports, I've had lots of experience with that.

(Cheesy signoff because I'm not sure what to close this with) See you on the rift!

40 Comments

Lucifer13 votes

This is only true to an extent. The game becomes super stale if some imbalanced champions are let free to dominate for extended periods of time, simply because they make "interesting plays" in the LCS.

Stonington5 votes

That's a very old video made during season 2. It actually applies better to dota than lol at the moment. Yes, there's still counters and counter picks like the example you gave. At lol's current state and direction counters aren't -that- big of a deal. You can get hard countered in a lane and it shouldn't be a huge deal. You'll still be able to farm under your tower and acquire levels because of the experience range.

RSCurious2 votes

As long as league is a moba, it won't be irrelevant.

PPPPPPPPPPPP2703 votes

There is something that is being ignored greatly. Do the player own the champion counters and knows how to use them effectively? Granted it's possible to get to diamond with one champion just look at any diamond player on GD.

RSCurious1 votes

I agree, but this thread was more meant to give reason to the imbalances, and less to the players playing the champions of varied balances. The skill level of a player matters greatly, but I think league does a pretty good job, albeit flawed because humans are rogue elements, of categorizing players.

lojician3 votes

If everyone is a game theorist doing everything they can to maximize win percentage being randomly assigned their side then a bunch of equally skilled players will all win 50% of the time no matter how the game is balanced. Whoop de fucking do.

That doesn't mean imbalanced games are as fun or winning during the pick phase is a good thing. Some degree of asymmetry is inevitable but celebrating asymmetry and randomness is a departure from skilled players understanding the game's structure on a deep level and trying to outplay each other. Instead it caters to people without an attention span trying to catch on to the next sudden gimmick.

It's like playing chess or go vs playing super smash bros brawl or mario party. The former try to minimize asymmetry but still have a bunch of complexity and strategy. The little asymmetry they can't remove becomes very important trying to play those games at a deep level. The latter two games pump in as much bullshit and chaos as they can manage. That doesn't make them more complex or skillful. It makes them more chaotic.

There's a place in the world for chaotic party games that minimize in-game skill and try to make everything exciting and colorful and spontaneous and dependent on pre-game choices. But people that like those games need to stop pretending they're somehow more interesting and strategic. They're really not.

RSCurious1 votes

But the asymmetry isn't based around one team having an advantage over another which is why draft pick exists for the most part. Assuming that the players on each team are completely equal in skill level, when someone chooses a champion because it's slightly stronger in a certain area than others, it opens an opportunity for the other side to pick something that will counter that champion well. Celebrating asymmetry is not a bad thing, nor is asymmetry, because it evolves the game to be more dynamic, and as much as people would like to try to say otherwise, fun.

Are there competitive aspects in league? Definitely, but a game without fun is not a game at all. And casual play happens with a huge portion of league players, usually the ones who are having too much fun playing to come whine and complain on the forums.

lojician2 votes

Fun to you. You seem to be the kind of player who'd rather be playing mario party than chess. There's nothing inherently wrong with that but treating your preferences like some kind of objective measure of 'fun' is stupid as is fallaciously claiming the majority of players share your opinion.

I enjoy coming into a balanced lane and winning it through better understanding, mechanics, and decision making. I don't enjoy picking kennen after my opponent locks in a garen and pat myself on the back for making such a brilliant pre-game decision. That preference isn't somehow related to professional vs casual. It's enjoying understanding and outplaying more than keeping up with trends and squeezing every superficial advantage you can out of pick/ban. And whatever you say I think a lot of players will agree with me.

RSCurious1 votes

I didn't mean to imply it as horribly unbalanced, which I realize is my mistake and I'm going to cover in a another reply in a second.

Also I think Mario Party ruins friendships.

JustMyBassCannon3 votes

While I still love this video, and I still think it holds true for the most part, you can't deny that some imbalances aren't cool or fun for players.

A good follow-up episode for you to watch would be the Power/Spectacle Creep episodes; that should give you a good perspective of why people are complaining mostly about Mobility Creep right now (power creep, basically). And why people bitch all day about Lee Sin and Zed even though they're not actually problematic for balance.

RSCurious1 votes

I agree, some imbalances are not fun at all, but there are certain things that are, and I see a lot of this stuff get badgered. But that doesn't mean that I don't think game elements are always perfect. At a certain point every game needs to be fixed because something is just blatantly broken. Sorry for giving that misconception.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

I just wish that people in League's community could get used to the cyclical balance that actually still exists in League. Instead, the new Boards almost encourage complaining about the strong strategy, because it gets a lot more coverage (and more upvotes).

Rock Rockburgh1 votes

The thing is, some things have stayed strong for far too long. Zed/Lee have been dominant for a fairly long time now-- if the idea of cyclical balance were applied, we would have found a suitable counter by now and they would have fallen off, right? Since most players still haven't been able to find something that beats them, it seems more likely by the day that they just don't have counters. I'll gladly recant my statement if you can give an example, of course.

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rock Rockburgh,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LeYdIeXG,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-17T17:56:34.612+0000)

Zed/Lee have been dominant for a fairly long time now-- if the idea of cyclical balance were applied, we would have found a suitable counter by now and they would have fallen off, right?

Zed has only been strong for a few months, actually. That's a normal amount of time for champions to fade in and out of the spotlight. Specifically, he grew to power due to the nerfs to Mana Regen around the same time that the meta shifted back from Mages to Assassins. The Mid meta is always shifting back and forth, mostly between Mages and Assassins. Mana Regen was absolutely insane due to the creation of Athene's Grail; while I agree that current Mana Regen needs buffs, pre-nerf Chalice/Grail was poorly balanced.

In fact, players are finding counter-play to Zed; except, instead of it being hard-counters that make Zed pointless, it's soft-counters (gameplay patterns with specific kit tools that allow them to handle his playstyle). Riot has been working on replacing hard-counters with soft-counters; this means that both sides of a fight can still win, and it's more based on which player (and later on, which team) is more skilled and coordinated.

Lee Sin technically hasn't been strong for much longer, either. However, his problem is much more significant than Zed's rise to power. While Zed is easily explained as a meta shift due to changes, Lee Sin's situation is similar, but has been much more gradual. The underlying problem with Lee Sin is that his kit is very general in strengths. If the power of a champion was possible to calculate by simply naming every individual thing they could do, Lee Sin would be considered the strongest, because he can do a lot. However, none of his strengths surpass those who focus on any one of his kit's aspects, which logically sounds balanced. Logically. In practice, it makes him capable of doing several things at once, changing his combat based on the situation with far more versatility than a simple Fighter would be expected to have. Many strengths means few weaknesses.

However, this was offset by having a terrible late-game. Despite having strong scaling and solid abilities, Lee Sin has never had a truly powerful late-game. Without defense, he can't really afford to make use of his damage as anything other than burst. Without offense, he can't draw enough focus to make it worthwhile. And with a balance of both, he doesn't quite out-perform many Fighters in the late-game.

Gradual, consistent nerfs that affected Fighters in general are why Lee Sin is becoming prominent again. All the direct nerfs to other Fighters indirectly buffed Lee Sin's effectiveness, and any indirect nerfs through items affected him less because of his generalist design.

However, despite the fact that Lee Sin is currently strong, he's still not really a problem. He has a problem, and his kit needs changing to focus his kit properly, but he's really not a priority issue. All it would take to "fix" his power is bringing the other junglers/Fighters back in line. I would much prefer that they focus on the champions who are still balance problems, despite having been nerfed to hide the fact that they are horribly imbalanced.

Yandere Carry1 votes

something something, ignore the last part of the video so i can QQQQQQ about lee sin and zed! >_> jesus these ppl

Pryotra3 votes

While all of what he said may hold some weight, the thing is it doesn't apply to league like he claimed it did.

Over the course of several seasons, The jungle has been dominated by Lee Sin. Quote your statistics as you like, he has consistently had one of the highest playrates for years at all levels of play. While some champions can indeed counter him, no one champion counters him well enough to change the minds of pro players. As a result, we see a static element in what is supposed to be a dynamic environment. When the static element remains for a long enough period of time, and gets balanced around, and as a result warps the balance of the environment around it to support it.

This flies in the face of "cyclical imbalance," as by now the players should have come up with something to counter him, whether it be a strategy or champion strength. Instead, we see laners adapting picks and playstyle to survive/escape his ganks. Instead, we see jungle picks based on who can compete/survive against Lee Sin. We don't see anything really dominating lee sin, and frankly this interupts the "perfect imbalance" as since no tool in the game can beat Lee Sin, the tools are measured against Lee Sin. How does this help me if Lee sin comes at me? How does Lee Sin react to that? This warps balance, and as a result we have seen a sharp increase in mobility since his release. The immobile champions tend to fall by the wayside, as they struggle to face Lee Sin regardless of their balance, while more mobile champions are judged for whether or not their numbers can compete. While people dedicating their time to certain champions or "gameplay elements", they naturally find ways to deal with the static element with that tool. That said, this does not make these tools "counters".

For example, lets take a recent Immobile Mage, and measure them against Lee. I'll pick Vel'Koz. Vel is pretty cool, and pretty much everyone agrees he is balanced. However, he generally seems to rest around 4% playrate. Sure, Pro's picking him and him being free can make him spike, but he seems to always trend back to around 4%. This supports the idea that most tend not to use the immobile champions, as they have issues against Lee Sin. Now lets compare a recent champion with lots of mobility. For this, I'll use Yasuo. At this point, I realize his playerate has evened out, and the nerfs have settled in. He still sits at a whopping 21-22% average. Again, this is after repeated strikes of the ban hammer. Like him or not, his winrate trends below 50% at this point. Yet he still recieves consistant play. Probably because he has the tools and mobility to compete vs a Lee Sin. Generally, this trend continues, with the most played champs having good mobility and decent tools to fend off Lee Sin and the least played with the least mobility and the least successful tools when dealing with Lee Sin.

This does not create balanced gameplay, nor does it create perfect imbalance. If the game did resemble one of the two, it would most likely resemble a balanced game, not perfect imbalance, as at this point there has been alot of strategies, and the core strategy is what everyone balances their own personal play around, and games are decided by who can react best to Lee Sin. This is unhealthy for the games future, as stated in that video. If the game is to continue, Lee will need to become a dynamic element. And even then, there is no telling what that will do to the ecosystem, as frankly the game has been balanced around Lee Sin for so long that without him it will be difficult to predict what could happen.

Personal Opinion

It's my belief that if Lee sin were to be rebalanced, the mobility creep is so set in stone that League's version of the "jedi curve" will need to be re-evaluated. Clearly mobility is power, otherwise lee wouldn't have warped play the way he did. That said, some of the other tools are clearly capable of handling him. This will all need to be weighed, to see where the strengths of those champions are that have allowed them to remain competitive, and balance the game accordingly.

For example, Immobile mages that still can handle lee sin tend to include those with wide AoE damage and CC, indicating that both may be key factors to dealing with mobility in general. Remember, outside Lee, the game still has a little cyclical gameplay where the champions that compare to Lee are cycled as certain picks become dominant and people seek to deal with those other forces on the field. The fact that the immobile ones tend to have AoE and CC in their kits shows that those elements are key in dealing not only with lee sin, but the game around lee sin as well.

RSCurious1 votes

Let me just clear up some things I did not clarify in the original thread. My honest mistake by the way, I realize that I am not perfect at conveying any of my opinions.

I did not mean to imply that everything is perfectly unbalanced, the thread was created more at my dismay that people whimsically create threads about how champions are op or need to be nerfed. There are definitely changes that need to be made in areas, which is part of the reason the game is involving and the development team has no way to know perfectly how a champion or item will do in the game environment without player feedback. It just seems to me that most of the feedback created is misdirected or not clear enough, more or less just useless pandering like another post made just hating on how op Lee Sin is on this thread. Not to suggest that he's not op, but that players are going about addressing it the completely wrong way.

I do not think that any one person has a completely correct opinion, and I believe it actually gets worse as you get opinions as a group, group mentality and all. I apologize for my own misconceptions and would like to clarify that I don't think even I'm right in entirety. But, as a whole, I do think that imbalances in games are cool and fun, not in a way that it begins to feel overbearing in any way, but that it causes viable new strategies to be formed, rather than just a forced, knee-jerk response.

Also I love Debating Politely (Italicized because a lot of people mistake the word "debate" for "argue", not the same thing.)

xLegendary Troll2 votes

Nice video. However you fail to realize that the majority of people on these forums don't want to think and come up with new ways to counter or strategize. They wait for professional players to do that and then copy.

Best example: item 3085 Kalista . One pro player does this and now everyone who plays Kalista does it.

RSCurious1 votes

I have never once built from an "established" build. I know a lot of people who feel the same way. I have not met this "everyone" you're talking about.

PrinceOfStorms1 votes

[{quoted}](name=xLegendary Troll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LeYdIeXG,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-02-16T20:17:55.468+0000)

Nice video. However you fail to realize that the majority of people on these forums don't want to think and come up with new ways to counter or strategize. They wait for professional players to do that and then copy.

Best example: item 3085 Kalista . One pro player does this and now everyone who plays Kalista does it.

More like, until the pro players got runaans everyone said that Runaan's was bad on Kalista and everyone who bought it was a scrublord.

Gank in Progress2 votes

so where is the perfect imbalance in lee sin. ah right, nowhere. this video is useless

Doctor Dyment3 votes

Dodge his Q, lock him down with CC, be Heimerdinger? You just have to think about how you can use his strengths against him. But no, you just complain about it. And, for future reference, if you want any one smart person to take you seriously, work on your grammar. You look like a six year old.

Gank in Progress1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Doctor Dyment,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LeYdIeXG,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-02-16T23:01:21.451+0000)

Dodge his Q, lock him down with CC, be Heimerdinger? You just have to think about how you can use his strengths against him. But no, you just complain about it. And, for future reference, if you want any one smart person to take you seriously, work on your grammar. You look like a six year old.

i think the immature one here is the one that doesnt accept that lee sin has no perfect imbalance, claiming he is perfectly imbalanced since 3 years and accusing others to be six year olds because they dont agree.

reposting a 3 year old video doesnt make you look smart buddy, it shows how you stick to old rules and want to apply them to new problems. youre a fool sir.

Doctor Dyment1 votes

Psst, just so you know, I didn't repost this video. Also, as I said before, you gotta work on your grammar son.

Gank in Progress1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Doctor Dyment,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LeYdIeXG,comment-id=0004000000000001,timestamp=2015-02-18T00:05:07.019+0000)

Psst, just so you know, I didn't repost this video. Also, as I said before, you gotta work on your grammar son.

whatever you say kid, ill leave this post for good. deserves no attention anyways. also, how many languages do you speak? ah actually i dont even wanna know that, be proud you mastered the easiest language in the world by learning it since youre young, murican ;)

Doctor Dyment1 votes

Okay bye! I can safely assure you that nobody will miss you. Buh bye! Don't come back now, ya hear! Bye!

Learnding2 votes

The video and you fail to understand that the saturated environment on balance is 110% solely based on competitive play. There isn't a "Perfect imbalance", or what ever mister I have to hide my voice is fucking mumbling about.

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

RSCurious1 votes

I don't agree entirely, but I do understand the desire in a group of players for perfect balance. I have no issue with that desire whatsoever, it just the misdirection of it that I disagree with.

Yandere Carry2 votes

good thread, called you a scrublord still.

RSCurious1 votes

I called me a scrublord too. I'm not offended ;)

Sassmast3r1 votes

I agree with you for the most part. However, there are some champs that are so incredibly imbalanced that, even when a counter is found (which actually makes this game fun if you ask me, discovering a new way to counter someone), it still does not help when it comes to fighting. For example (and keep in mind, I'm not the smartest, best player out there, so keep your criticism at a minimum if possible), I have noticed that the champion "Katarina" is considered to be overpowered by a large majority of the community. I decided to do some research online in combination with practicing against a few Katarina's, and I began to notice that whenever I used Lissandra, Cassiopeia, and even Karma, I was able to counter her by harassing her. This made me ecstatic; I was finally able to counter that annoying champ. But then, I began to realize, that EVEN WHEN I DID THIS, SHE WAS STILL OP. Why? Well, this is my personal opinion, but, since she has no mana, what is her personal disadvantage? Her cooldowns. And what does her passive do? Oh, Idk, reduce her cooldowns! This on it's own causes her to be OP. And, especially during the teamfighting phase, she is still incredibly difficult to fight against, even when I attempted to use my ult on her as Lissandra (she usually was still able to kill two or three people by time we finished her off). Then again, this is just me, so perhaps I'm looking at this completely wrong.

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

But every champion has that.

When a champion becomes a dominant factor in the meta, even when you find a counter, they're not hard-counters. They're strong against that champ for some reason or another, but they don't make it impossible for that champion to still pull off victory if they outplay the counter-strategy.

That's how imperfect balance with soft-counters works.

RSCurious1 votes

Which is where it gets interesting and fun. Assuming somebody chooses a champ that is stronger in a certain stat than other champions, you can either choose between a champion that is stronger in another area and hope to outplay the other champion or use your strength to win, or you can choose a soft counter, and rather than use your strength, play more to their weakness. However, no team perfectly counters any other team, assuming you're in a draft mode and the second team is choosing counters to what the first team picks in their respective lanes, that does not mean that they will counter all, or even any of the other champions on the team of the champion that they're trying to encounter, which creates interesting team engagements.

VDc0zCqe0w1 votes

imbalance is only fine if the champ is not retarded

for example, i'm completely fine with having, let's say, Cassio OP, because she requires a ton of skill

i'm not fine with having Graves or Leona OP, because they are dumb champs that require zero skill, so the random scrublord can go and stomp with them with ease while being terribad at the game

if you play botlane, i can't believe you don't hate Graves atm, he is the definition of retardness, he is brainless to the bone

if Ashe was OP i wouldn't even mind because she takes brain to play, same thing about Vayne etc...

RSCurious1 votes

Pretty much nobody plays graves, so I don't really have much experience in the way of him. Although most of the games I remember playing with him on my team we lost, and against him we won.

VDc0zCqe0w1 votes

{quoted}

Pretty much nobody plays graves, so I don't really have much experience in the way of him. Although most of the games I remember playing with him on my team we lost, and against him we won.

what the fuck?

how?

no one in NA plays him?

in EUW there's like one Graves per game

Seth Lightheart1 votes

Yup, I love that video. I link it every time I see someone rage at X champ.

Because 99% of the time they champ falls out of favor in a few months time.

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