Why the Assassin Update is Incomplete.

Test for Echo··13 votes·1,530 views

The assassin rework is great for people who play against assassins, but it does very little to fix a major problem for most assassins.

In order for assassins to be viable and healthy, they need a method of staying alive despite diving into the enemy back-line, a sort of 'survival utility'. A good example of this is Fizz e, which allows you to survive longer by avoiding damage. Unfortunately there are not nearly enough of these mechanics in the game leading to assassins being weak at high elo where you can't get away with abusing abysmal positioning.

Without survival utility you can only survive for a very short time in the backline of the enemy team, but backline threat is a major part of what makes an assassin worth picking - if you aren't going to dive then you might as well pick a mage who is better suited to sitting back.

If being an assassin requires diving the backline, and diving the backline means you only have a very short amount of time alive, then assassins must be able to do their work in that short period of time.

If assassins must do enough damage to kill someone in a very short time, then there obviously won't be very much time to react, leading to a lack of counter-play. This is an issue, and a big reason for the recent assassin rework, which adds time to react and therefore counter-play.

But in order for this to work, assassins need more time. If the time assassins take to kill someone is less than the time they have alive in the backline, then assassin won't be able to dive the backline. If assassins can't dive the backline, then there's no reason to pick an assassin.

There are two ways to survive longer. One is to be tanky. This is why bruisers like Irelia, or tanks like Maokai can dive the backline without having 1 shot potential. If you make an assassin tanky it is no longer an assassin (like tank ekko, and bruiser fizz last year) so it would be the same as removing assassins from the game, which I think should be avoided.

The other way is to let assassins avoid damage with survival utility. I mentioned Fizz e earlier, but invulnerability is not the only form this takes. Spellsheilds (like Nocturne), CC (like Ekko), CC immunity (like Fiora) and mobility (like Yasuo) are all other ways to increase survivability without raw tankiness.

Of course, these often give extra benefits in addition to survival utility, so you can't just give everyone a few dashes and call it good. I think the new item that channels a spell-shield is a good start, but won't be nearly enough in my opinion.

I know that a lot of people see these abilities, especially Fizz and Yasuo e, as unbalanced or unhealthy mechanics and would not want similar things to be added. I believe most of this hate is unwarranted, and the mechanics are just easy scapegoats for other issues. They have clear counter-play that is available to any champion, even if it is hard to adjust your play-style for a certain champion.

34 Comments

NineTailedMystic7 votes

You mean how they're reworking Stealth to not be revealed by pinks so they live longer by being untargetable? You mean how Kat is getting more Shunpo resets for picking up daggers? How Talon will be able to traverse the map in a fraction the time anyone else, in addition to not being revealed by a pink? How Kha'zix's going to have far more Stealth options and burst against isolated targets, while not being revealed? How Rengar's W will heal him based on damage taken and when empowered breaks all CC and becomes CC immune for a couple of seconds? How Leblanc still has her blink back after a tiny delay where her burst is better when she properly sets up her mark and can make it AoE? How Zed still has his shadow swaps?

The only Assassin getting truly shafted defensively is Akali. I despise Akali, but her new W is not good.

zaire901 votes

{quoted}

You mean how they're reworking Stealth to not be revealed by pinks so they live longer by being untargetable? You mean how Kat is getting more Shunpo resets for picking up daggers? How Talon will be able to traverse the map in a fraction the time anyone else, in addition to not being revealed by a pink? How Kha'zix's going to have far more Stealth options and burst against isolated targets, while not being revealed? How Rengar's W will heal him based on damage taken and when empowered breaks all CC and becomes CC immune for a couple of seconds? How Leblanc still has her blink back after a tiny delay where her burst is better when she properly sets up her mark and can make it AoE? How Zed still has his shadow swaps?

The only Assassin getting truly shafted defensively is Akali. I despise Akali, but her new W is not good.

that reset is there to help her laning phase though and i heard they nerfed her q damage and also her old w is now confined to a certain space with a delay which can easily be moved away from

NineTailedMystic3 votes

Her Q damage is less AoE (two targets) but creates a dagger for her new W to use. Yes, there's a delay but its damage is insane and has no CD for the spin, just W's active effect which creates a dagger.

Regardless, the OP was talking about how the Assassins are losing their defensive escapes, yet they're almost all getting buffed in that regard.

zaire902 votes

riot said she was less bursty but good to know the damage on her w is pretty good since i figured they put most of her damage in her ult since i never played her rework yet

NineTailedMystic2 votes

If Katarina picks up a Dagger, she uses it to slash through all nearby enemies, dealing [75 - 311 based on level] (+125% bonus AD)(+55-100% AP) magic damage.

Dagger pick up slash damage should be: 75/78/83/88/95/103/112/122/133/145/159/173/189/206/224/243/264/285

AP scaling on dagger pick up slash is 55/70/85/100% at 1/6/11/16

Daggers last on ground about four seconds.

She can do this twice without a reset, with Q dagger and W dagger. When set up properly she'll still do a load of damage but the enemy have the ability to avoid it. Wonderful design imo, telegraphed but strong when executed well.


Applies Grievous Wounds to all enemies struck, reducing their healing and regeneration by 40%. Total potential damage now 375/562.5/750 (+330% Bonus AD) (+ 285% AP)

Her ult is still strong, but has 15 ticks of damage over 2.5s and still applies grievous wounds.

Test for Echo1 votes

Some of those will help a lot, like the improved invisibility and Rengar's w.

That said, I do not think it will be enough to make these champions viable in a competitive setting, and this is where the problem is largest. I am a fan of the update, I just think it is incomplete when it comes to helping assassins.

Are1 votes

Talon - E has a really long cooldown, and you have to choose between using it to get close to someone or using it to get away. Since he lost his long range blink, he has a hard time diving back line since the Q dash has a rather short range. He doesn't have much in the way of burst since a lot of his damage is loaded into his passive, which is a DoT. W only slows on return now, so it's easier to sidestep if you don't let Talon get in range (which became harder with this rework), so R has to be used more often as an offensive tool than an escape now.

Katarina - Gains more potential, but is also harder to play. Can no longer ward hop, but has more Shunpo resets based on how she sets her daggers, which is a fair trade. Wall hopping has become A LOT harder, though it can still be done, but only on some walls.

Nyanza1 votes

What about Shaco ?

Sir Fuzzi1 votes

Dude, isn't Rengar's CC immunity literally under 2sec?

NineTailedMystic1 votes

It's better than Cleanse which just give 65% Tenacity for 3s after being used.

Hinagiku334 votes

I'm holding out some hope that assassins will have enough burst that they can at least burst down a target that has taken a little poke damage first. But giving telegraphed windows for when they can actually do proper damage is like a glowing neon sign for supports and tanks to hose assassins even better. "PLEASE EXHAUST ME EXACTLY NOW" or "PLACE ALL CC HERE".

I can see assassins being fine at low level play because people are idiots. But unless one or two are over-tuned I think assassins will be all but gone from high level play. We've seen the insane defensive utility that Skirmishers need just to be playable (Yasuo shield passive + Windwall, Fiora's new W, Tryndamere's Ult) so we know exactly how bad glass cannon melee works in this game if they can't insta-burst a target.

Extremely telegraphed play + glass cannon = useless against good players

But on the bright side, we will have a bunch of new tanks to play with. /s

NineTailedMystic3 votes

Yea, instead of Talon brainlessly running at his target with stealth, Youmuu's, and a blink and instantly deleting them without any proper reaction from the target or their team and then promptly dying for it after chunking the rest of the team with his massive AoE. he'll actually have to think about his kills? What a shame that Assassins will be the high skill cap, big outplays, big risk class they were intended to be.

Erockandroll1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fiora All Night,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LU031yIJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-11-04T12:17:55.638+0000)

I'm holding out some hope that assassins will have enough burst that they can at least burst down a target that has taken a little poke damage first. But giving telegraphed windows for when they can actually do proper damage is like a glowing neon sign for supports and tanks to hose assassins even better. "PLEASE EXHAUST ME EXACTLY NOW" or "PLACE ALL CC HERE".

I can see assassins being fine at low level play because people are idiots. But unless one or two are over-tuned I think assassins will be all but gone from high level play. We've seen the insane defensive utility that Skirmishers need just to be playable (Yasuo shield passive + Windwall, Fiora's new W, Tryndamere's Ult) so we know exactly how bad glass cannon melee works in this game if they can't insta-burst a target.

Extremely telegraphed play + glass cannon = useless against good players

But on the bright side, we will have a bunch of new tanks to play with. /s

You make it sound like there's no middle ground. Riot ultimately extended the Assassination window, because it didn't allow any counterplay, and Your suggesting that the new Assassination window allows too much counterplay. However, I some what disagree with this notion. Simply, theirs more counterplay in the counterplay that tanks/supports supposedly provide. To say that the support will counter the Assassin with Exhaust, is assuming a) it's off Cooldown, and b) your not going to use it for anything else. Not very likely given the CD of a summoner spell. (and if it is a problem, the CD of Exhaust can be increased) As for a tanks ability to CC, a smart assassin will obvious pick off the squishies while their alone. (which can happen even in higher level play) but if they also flank the enemy team, the Tank should be out of range. (It's really difficult to act both as a Vanguard, and as a warden at the same time.)

Also, I think the skill graph would look more like a ski jump. mid/high Elo might have trouble due to lack of Coordination, but in the pro scene, Teamwork is going to allow the Assassins to play to their strengths.

Saianna3 votes

Imo whole problem with assassins killing their targets too fast was cause ADCs ignored building any defensive item. So it's better to nerf ADCs major threats instead of fixing ADCs. Rito logic 2016 at its finest.

Btw, funny how

ADC rework = ADCs get all the attention. Noone else. Mage rework = Overall mage major gutting. Some mage items changed to support to work with ADCs better. Assassin rework = once again assassin gutting + giving supports new tools to help ADCs.

Well, if this trend continues, then tank/jungle reworks are deeply f*cked. But then... At least supports will have new toys to play... for their ADCs...

Stars Shaper2 votes

Assassins "survival tool" (IMO) is deleting the enemies' highest source of damage/priority target so that thier team can engage safely.

You bring Fizz's E as an example but have you ever wondered why he is the most hated of the Assassins? Because his untargettability/invulnerability makes him uncounterable while he can either save his ass after mesisng up his engage or engage without to worry about the frontline or having a good assassination path.

Test for Echo1 votes

Assassins "survival tool" (IMO) is deleting the enemies' highest source of damage/priority target so that thier team can engage safely.

Right now yes, but that is a problem because it gives the enemy carry no time to react, and have counterplay. This is a very bad type of survival tool that Riot is trying to remove with the update because it leads to unhealthy gameplay.

Fizz e does not make him uncounterable. It is annoying when he jukes your abilities with e, but if you position well and don't throw out your important spells willy nilly it can be dealt with. People hate it so much because they don't know how to play against it and spend their time complaining rather than learning how.

Stars Shaper2 votes

It becomes a problem when the Assassin is balanced around dealing that high damage while also bypassing the frontline with a click. Each Assa has been given tools to set up or go around the enemy frontline in ways that reward planning, and fast decision making. We must keep in mind that this isn't a 1vs1, this game is balanced around having team mates and some ADCs have "oh fuck" buttons (like Cait net and I can tell you that Jhin and Varus too can time their skills good enough to survive long enough or even kill the Assassin).

Fizz is not an healthy Assassin, he can just walk to you or dash into you without using his E and you will always die if you didn't manage to take cover instantly or your whole team to focus him he will just land point blank Shark, dodge anything you throw at him during the delay and get an easy kill because you didn't happen to oneshot him the moment he appeared on your map.

Test for Echo1 votes

It becomes a problem when the Assassin is balanced around dealing that high damage

But Riot has been making assassins do less/slower damage so this won't be a problem.

Fizz can only use his e once before it goes on cooldown, so unless you use all your abilities right when he uses e (in which case it's your fault for playing bad), then he can't dodge them all.

With good positioning it is pretty easy to stay at a range where he can't just walk up to you without going through your entire team first, which is suicidal for Fizz. Even if he uses e to get past them, it will be on cooldown so you can then use your abilities and cc/damage him.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

The assassin is supposed to infiltrate and take down a key target before they have major impact. That's it. They aren't supposed to be dancing through teams being untouchable, nor chain-killing everyone by themselves either.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

RENGAR ONE SHOT ME. I WENT FULL GLASS CANNON AND I CAN'T TANK DAMAGE. HOW COULD THIS POSSIBLY HAPPEN?

ADC main.

if you don't want to get one shot build defensive items. just like the rest of us.

Divewing2 votes

The only good example Fizz's E is, is exactly the kind of ability that is broken as shit.

midnight oil241 votes

Try evelynn. They can't see you coming towards their back line until it's too late. Then burst them down with your ultimate and other burst abilities, using your new shield to get that extra survivability.

Test for Echo1 votes

I would consider eve more of a bruiser, or at least a bruiser/assassin hybird, because she relies on tankiness from her ult to survive long enough.

Brain Errör 4041 votes

Zed Ahri Fizz Talon Leblanc Khazix Katarina Ekko

I mean, this is majority of the assassins here. They all have a get in and get out. You just have to use it properly. When you think about it, the assassin pool is actually quite small, surprisingly.

I agree, and disagree at the same time. Having both a get in, kill your target, get out for free kinda puts a lot more balancing issues into retrospect.

Test for Echo3 votes

This is not about having an escape. It's about staying in the fight without dying. They can run away, but if you run away without killing anyone you are pretty useless.

Sometimes these things can overlap, but there is an important difference.

JackMcSnipeyz1 votes

Rengar gets a cleanse+ heal. Talon gets a wall leaping ability. Le blac gets old passive every time she uses a spell. Kha has reset, kata is AoE, ekko has ult, zed has shadows.

Assassins have enough in and out tools anyway, you really want every assassin to just blow up your DPS/Mage and just fizz troll pole away?

No.. Dont be stupid, that lowers the class skill floor, nothing is impressive about lb dashing 2 lanes blowing up your ADC then teleporting back to turret.

Killing your target is just step one of an assassins job, step two is getting out alive. If you give every assassin a easy escape tool you'll have a broken mess of LC$ big plays

Test for Echo2 votes

Talon's wall leap does nothing to keep him alive during a fight, which is what he will need if you don't want Talon 1 shotting carries before they can react.

I'm not saying Assassins should be straight up buffed to have more survivability. I think it should come at the cost of longer burst windows, like what is happening with the assassin update. I think escape should be easier, but killing should be harder, not that assassins should have easier escape while still being able to 1 shot easily.

JackMcSnipeyz1 votes

Talon wall jump is an excellent escape tool, jump on ADC with Your dash, throw blades + passive then ult to a nearby wall and leap and leap and leap untill they cant chase anymore.

Test for Echo2 votes

But once you leap the wall you can't leap back, so you are out of the fight for good. This doesn't remove the problem where Talon needs to do all his damage quickly before he jumps/dies (which doesn't give enough counterplay).

I am not saying assassins need more mobility, I am saying they need more ways to survive while staying in the backline. Mobility can help with this, but not always, and there are other ways to help.

LordGeovanni1 votes

I completely disagree that assassins need more ways to stay alive when they dive they back line assassins should go in assassinate the appropriate target and then the team should fight with the 5v4 advantage not to mention most assassins have ridiculous aoe damage and by time they kill an adc the support next to them is 2 hits away from death too. mages in this meta have as much health as tanks so you cant target them and there is something wrong with that

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Aside from akali(who just needs an AS bonus when her passive is active kinda like taric), the assassin patch WILL fix the assassins for those who play them.

They're able to do their jobs just fine and fit everything an assassin should have(Except noc, eve, and kass who didn't even get touched QQ)

Albeit LB's cook time does get in the way late game which isn't hard to fix since scaling it per level isn't hard to do. Also them not removing bonetooth necklace which has since release ALWAYS broken rengar still salty about that...

It would actually be far more balanceable, fun and fit his theme to remove it in exchange for a mechanic similar to kha's "Evolve". Hunters even the predators in AvP are known for improving what they have for the next hunt, not just collecting prizes from their prey. But what can you do, rito missed a good opportunity to fix it, at least rengar's new kit is amazing but sadly bonetooth is def going to be an issue.

Dynamiku Entry1 votes

So if we apply the changes you suggest, they won't be assassin's anymore but Skirmisher's, a class we already have. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Irelia Bot3 votes

Riot is basically saying assassins are unhealthy and can not be in this game with some of these changes.

And people wonder why the response is that marksmen are unhealthy due to a lack of effective counters.

Test for Echo3 votes

The problem is current assassins are unhealthy for the game. While this would change their identity slightly, something needs to change and in my opinion this keeps assassins closest to their original role. It retains all the aspects of assassins that aren't a problem (mobile, squishy, backline threat), while allowing the problematic part (instant burst) to be removed without making assassins useless.

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