Lifesteal should go the way of spellvamp

GaryTheGayzelle·Apr 29, 2018·6 votes·1,692 views

Lifesteal is spellvamps cheaper and more reliable cousin so why is it that riot saw fit to utterly delete spell vamp from the game and lump it clumsily into ONE item (that also happens to double as lifesteal) but they have left lifesteal alone. Lifesteal is way more consistent as auto attacks have no cooldown and can hit as hard or harder than spells at this point in time. Im looking at you 1200 dmg crits.... What I am proposing is they do the same thing to lifesteal as they did to spellvamp, i.e confine it to specific items and remove it from low tier items. There is no feasible reason why an adc with just a dorans blade should be able to heal 200 dmg in an instant when they get their infinity edge and land a single crit. Or an assassin like kha should be able to sustain himself that easily. Its been egregious for a while but I sincerely thought riot would handle it.

31 Comments

Zane ZephyrApr 29, 20186 votes

Riot removed spell vamp because it was so niche that only a few champions used it effectively (vlad, morde) and it made them either busted or weak and they couldn't balance it enough for it to be more viable so they got rid of it.

GaryTheGayzelleApr 29, 20182 votes

Uh, but, people actually used it. I dont mind what they did with it, i just think they should apply the same logic to life steal as well. Confine it to like bloodthirster and deaths dance and thats IT. Theres no point in having it on....dorans blade, ravenous hydra, blade of the ruined king, bloodthirster, deaths dance, cutlass, and scepter. not to mention its attached to certain items unique passives like maw and gunblade

Big LincolnApr 29, 20184 votes

Lifesteal is way more consistent

that's why they kept it

GaryTheGayzelleApr 29, 20182 votes

I meant that in a NEGATIVE connotation.

5050BSApr 29, 20183 votes

Veru much so. Life steal should be built into some champs Kits like Akali but not in items

ModWulf HelhammerApr 29, 20183 votes

Ok.

ADCs have more damage then. Or supports are even better at protecting their carries, and are even more inseparable from ADCs

Balancing requires balance. You remove the only consistent defensive type item an ADC can build, you gotta compensate it in some way elsewhere.

GaryTheGayzelleApr 29, 20185 votes

adcs are supposed to be protected by their supports so why would they need so much self sustain? and they already have the only revive in the game itemization. in the stopwatch meta they actually have more protection through itemization than they have ever had before and paired with such easily accesable lifesteal its getting sad

xToxicOsirisxApr 29, 20183 votes

Because not every support is capable of defending their adc, either because of their kit or because the player is bad. Why the hell would somebody want to play a position where them being able to play is decided by how good their support is. Nobody would want to play the role that's entirely dependent on how competent their support is. Nobody wants to play a role that becomes a grey screen simulator because the support is autofilled or just not playing a good healing champion.

GaryTheGayzelleApr 29, 20181 votes

Bot lane has always been dictated by how good the adc/support synergy is. As a support main the first thing you learn to do is play around your adc and help them out. Theres literally a thousand memes about it. Its only recently with the adcs being able to self sustain that supports are just mages that go bot lane and do oodles of damage. Hell supports are even expected to take ignite in this meta.

ZT XperimentorMay 7, 20181 votes

Ingenuity goes a long way. Say you're playing brand support and talon runs in behind your marksmen to gank, sure you don't have a shield or heal, but you can still stun him.

5050BSApr 29, 20183 votes

Im fine with Supports getting more heals. Just as long as it makes it so AD cant self heal for 300-400 A AUTO ATTACK

:/ edit "CANT"

GaryTheGayzelleApr 29, 20184 votes

the problem is that they ALREADY FUCKING DO THAT.

rtbf221651412Apr 29, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KQWbYTk3,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-29T02:28:38.397+0000)

Ok.

ADCs have more damage then. Or supports are even better at protecting their carries, and are even more inseparable from ADCs

Balancing requires balance. You remove the only consistent defensive type item an ADC can build, you gotta compensate it in some way elsewhere.

item 3812 item 3814 item 3137 item 3026 item 3155 item 3025 item 3111 item 3047 item 3139 item 3156 item 3046 item 3140 item 3078 item 3384 item 3091

EXCUSE ME? Eliminate the lifesteal and they still function. **Only defensive item. ** LOL

ModWulf HelhammerApr 29, 20182 votes

Take out lifesteal and items no ADC builds (and seriously? An item that's only on TT? That's the play you were going for?):

item 3026 item 3047 item 3111 item 3046 and maybe item 3156 . And two of those are boots, of which only one became an acceptable ADC pick when it was a tad buffed up too much (and another item is only a duelist item, so it does absolutely nothing for you in a teamfight).

Unless your name is Ezreal or Corki, you don't build either of these: item 3025 item 3078

Yep. Tons of items.

rtbf221651412Apr 29, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KQWbYTk3,comment-id=000100020000,timestamp=2018-04-29T04:13:21.552+0000)

Take out lifesteal and items no ADC builds (and seriously? An item that's only on TT? That's the play you were going for?):

and maybe . And two of those are boots, of which only one became an acceptable ADC pick when it was a tad buffed up too much (and another item is only a duelist item, so it does absolutely nothing for you in a teamfight).

Unless your name is Ezreal or Corki, you don't build either of these:

Yep. Tons of items.

Can you explain to me why you took out item 3139 item 3091 item 3812 ?

You must be new here.

Here, let me show you how many defensive items mages have by your broken logic:

item 3157 item 3102 item 3111

Do you even league?

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KQWbYTk3,comment-id=00010003000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-29T06:17:20.250+0000)

Death's Dance without Lifesteal is literally just a time bomb on your death. All the damage still get's dealt - just delayed.

Yeah that 80 damage plus the passive that prevents burst is totally worth not getting without lifesteal. Kappa

ModWulf HelhammerApr 29, 20181 votes

No ADC except Kog’Maw builds wits end.

And in case you missed the opening line of my post:

REMOVE LIFESTEAL ITEMS

Both Mercurial and Death’s Dance are Lifesteal items. Do you know what those items are before making a post?

rtbf221651412Apr 29, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KQWbYTk3,comment-id=00010002000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-29T22:12:29.002+0000)

No ADC except Kog’Maw builds wits end.

And in case you missed the opening line of my post:

REMOVE LIFESTEAL ITEMS

Both Mercurial and Death’s Dance are Lifesteal items. Do you know what those items are before making a post?

Yes. Mercurial has MR. Death's Dance prevents burst. Therefore, both are defensive. Also, Corki can abuse Wits end. I'm sure others can too like Ezreal. L2P. You can't pick and choose what counters your argument. Their lifesteal isn't the best part of them. How to debate 101. Step one: Don't pick and choose.

ModWulf HelhammerApr 29, 20181 votes

Deaths dance without it’s heal is a time bomb to your death. All the damage still goes through, it’s just delayed.

Which even after your edit you have completely ignored. What use is a “defensive item” if the regular use of it still results in your death?

Mercurial without lifesteal is also just as ineffective. Yeah, you can cleanse a CC, but that amount of MR isn’t going to save you.

“Don’t pick a chose”, in the same statement in which you create scenarios for a champion to use an item that no one actually builds on them. That my friend, is actually debate 101: don’t use logical fallacies. And that one is called a Strawman (Also your constant Ad Hominem attacks)

rtbf221651412Apr 29, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KQWbYTk3,comment-id=0001000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-29T22:36:00.296+0000)

Something something about not knowing about DoT and how healing affects it vs burst. Something something about saying potions not existing. Something something about saying how much damage each DoT does versus just a burst being the same.

Fixed.

Subject 5Apr 29, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KQWbYTk3,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-29T02:28:38.397+0000)

Ok.

ADCs have more damage then. Or supports are even better at protecting their carries, and are even more inseparable from ADCs

Balancing requires balance. You remove the only consistent defensive type item an ADC can build, you gotta compensate it in some way elsewhere.

I disagree, ADC's have a billion items that have great survivability to them; items that AP users don't even have. In-fact, supports give these things that are desired like lifesteal / shields and survivability. A class that does extreme damage shouldn't also have extreme sustain.

Lifesteal should be removed Imho. If somebody like an assassin unloads on your face and you just walk away to lifesteal off a jungle camp to full HP a few moments later, that's bull shit. That assassin did their job and I guess it's not good enough.

ModWulf HelhammerApr 29, 20182 votes

Take out lifesteal items and the only real possible ADC defensive items are item 3026 item 3047 item 3111 item 3046 and maybe item 3156 . And two of those are boots, of which only one became an acceptable ADC pick when it was a tad buffed up too much.

And you don't want ADCs getting a bunch of raw resistances. Why? Because then they become "tanky" and can't be one shot anymore.

Lifesteal is their defensive because it only functions as a defensive if you are being active. Just standing around not hitting anything? That item 3153 does jack shit (unlike something like item 3156 , which offers it's benefits passively). You have to be putting yourself in potential harm by sticking around to hit stuff if you want any benefit of lifesteal.

And no, the assassin didn't do their job. For starters, if they weren't able to kill the squishiest class in the game with their whole combo, then they either are hopelessly underfed, or just straight up sucked. An assassin's job is to kill stuff. Unless they fulfill that, then they didn't do it. Now, can they force opponents out of the fight? Yes. But if you are trying to do that when there's not a fight, of course you're going to be punished for not playing correctly and you know, forcing them out of a fight. If the ADC leaving to lifesteal off of a camp doesn't accomplish anything, then you absolutely failed.

Subject 5Apr 29, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KQWbYTk3,comment-id=000100030000,timestamp=2018-04-29T04:16:41.558+0000)

Take out lifesteal items and the only real possible ADC defensive items are and maybe . And two of those are boots, of which only one became an acceptable ADC pick when it was a tad buffed up too much.

And you don't want ADCs getting a bunch of raw resistances. Why? Because then they become "tanky" and can't be one shot anymore.

Lifesteal is their defensive because it only functions as a defensive if you are being active. Just standing around not hitting anything? That does jack shit (unlike something like , which offers it's benefits passively). You have to be putting yourself in potential harm by sticking around to hit stuff if you want any benefit of lifesteal.

And no, the assassin didn't do their job. For starters, if they weren't able to kill the squishiest class in the game with their whole combo, then they either are hopelessly underfed, or just straight up sucked. An assassin's job is to kill stuff. Unless they fulfill that, then they didn't do it. Now, can they force opponents out of the fight? Yes. But if you are trying to do that when there's not a fight, of course you're going to be punished for not playing correctly and you know, forcing them out of a fight. If the ADC leaving to lifesteal off of a camp doesn't accomplish anything, then you absolutely failed.

ADC's are an offensive class, deal with it. Offensive classes are suppose to be limited in that regard . . .

These items are defensive, you are forgetting: item 3025 item 3071 item 3091 item 3812 (Death Dances ability to reduce damage over time, not the lifesteal.) item 3022 (I wasn't expecting you to know all of these items, most people in bronze don't know these items or many basics at all.)

All of those items combined with yours are very defensive items, but hold on one rootin tootin diddly darn second, let's take a look at the mages options: item 3157

WOW. So vulnerable. What would a class do without lifesteal! Omgggggg. It's almost like ADC's have a huge plethora of items that juggernauts can't use, brawlers can't use, supports can't use, AD mids can't use, AP mids can't use, divers can't use (Insert the entire class of champions other than adc's) can't use. Let's get this straight though: Lifesteal isn't DEFENSE. It is utility. It's an unnecessary utility when somebody is running around doing 1K damage an auto attack, healing for 20% sometimes even more of the damage of that auto attack.

ModWulf HelhammerApr 29, 20181 votes

Death's Dance without Lifesteal is literally just a time bomb on your death. All the damage still get's dealt - just delayed.

Iceborn is not an item an ADC builds unless your name is Ezreal.

Wit's End only exists on Kog'maw, and even then not always.

Black Cleaver only works on specific champions.

And seriously? item 3157 is the only mage defensive option? Let's look at the actual number:

item 3157 item 3102 item 3151 item 3027 item 3040 item 3152 item 3165 item 3116 And guess what? All those items work on every AP champion (except for like, the 4 manaless ones, and 2 of those build tanky anyway) And here's a couple maybes that not every champion can use, since you like listing those too: item 2065 item 3174

Your argument is lacking.

Subject 5Apr 29, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KQWbYTk3,comment-id=00010003000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-29T06:17:20.250+0000)

Death's Dance without Lifesteal is literally just a time bomb on your death. All the damage still get's dealt - just delayed.

Iceborn is not an item an ADC builds unless your name is Ezreal.

Wit's End only exists on Kog'maw, and even then not always.

Black Cleaver only works on specific champions.

And seriously? is the only mage defensive option? Let's look at the actual number:

And guess what? All those items work on every AP champion (except for like, the 4 manaless ones, and 2 of those build tanky anyway) And here's a couple maybes that not every champion can use, since you like listing those too:

Your argument is lacking.

The best I can tell you is that I'm sorry that you feel that way. Though, I know what bronze players think and feel like. People in bronze quite literally don't know every item or why they are built or how to lane, know about any sort of pressure or just basically don't know enough about the game to be in silver. That is the difference in bronze and silver, the game knowledge in most cases.

So in regard to your argument, in all honesty, I think that your argument is extremely lacking. First of all, you think that item 3151 is defensive item because it has 300 HP, literally 1 auto attack 15 minutes in the game for the adc. You just got done saying yourself that what makes somebody tanky is resistances, not the HP; that item is purely an offensive choice.

But okay, that isn't the only item - right? I will give you that item 3102 is a defensive item however it blows big donkey dick and is inferior to the AD version in everyday imaginable.

The next item ROA: the same argument applies to this as does the mask. HP does not = tanky. It's not a defensive item that is bought by champions purely for defensive value, actually, it's bought for champions that can stack it's value and need to face check you in order to do anything in the game. It's basically an item for champions that are badly designed, or severely outdated Annie TwistedFate Ryze AurelionSol

The tear item takes about 20 minutes to stack up, by the time that item actually does become a defensive item; it is obsolete because adc's are doing around 600 damage per auto attack. It isn't bought for it's defensive value, it is bought for the significant mid and late game boom that stacks on other AP items.

Also you named a utiltiy item, not a defensive item. There is a difference. item 3152 is not a defensive item. I know, HP, and you can use the item to ' run away ' but no, it's not a defensive item and it isn't built like a defensive item. Again, HP does not = defense, sir.

More items that are utiltiy, not defensive that you named. item 3174 because it has . . . 30 . . . magic . . . resist . . . jesus, man. You're grabbing for something I can't even see. Who exactly builds this that is a mage, again? Exactly. It's a fucking UTILITY ITEM.

item 2065 200 HP, good, that's like half an auto attack early mid game. But wait Suhbject phive, it gives you movement speed

item 3100 Is apparently a defensive item to you.

Want to know what a defensive item looks like? item 3143 Damage reduction item 3046 Damage reduction item 3193 Damage reduction in more ways than 1 item 3190 Damage reduction, also offers a shield based on your HP item 3222 THIS is a utility item. Say it with me. UTILITY. ITEM. U.T.I.L.I.T.Y. ITEM. Not defensive. item 1057 DEFENSE item 2047 UTILITY item 3083 UTILITY item 3065 DEFENSE

Seeing a pattern here?

MagicFlyingLlamaApr 29, 20182 votes

How about we buff support shields 50% to compensate and make the overshield rune stronger as well?

GaryTheGayzelleApr 29, 20181 votes

Dont supports already have itemization to make shields and heals stronger? The thing is, I never see them get them any more. They just build like a second mage that goes bot lane.

rtbf221651412Apr 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Dont supports already have itemization to make shields and heals stronger? The thing is, I never see them get them any more. They just build like a second mage that goes bot lane.

I used to build those. Then everything got a damage buff indirectly, so getting AP for damage, heals, and shields at the same time is a lot better for flexibility.

GaryTheGayzelleApr 29, 20182 votes

Didnt they implement it and then immediately nerf it into the ground when supports starting using it effectively? I remember a season or two ago when censer was required for support.

rtbf221651412Apr 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Didnt they implement it and then immediately nerf it into the ground when supports starting using it effectively? I remember a season or two ago when censer was required for support.

Ardent was a requirement for support because Stoneborn Pact (The old Font of Life) was broken with Old Ardent Censor. So much so I got it on Soraka (Health/AP/CDR/Shield/Heal) and leveled my Q instead of my W. Also, so much so that Ashe saw a season of being used as a support. That was also when ardent passive alone healed the adc as well. Add the fact we also had Ruby Sightstone and actual decent warding that gave 500HP or less.