Boards›Gameplay

New MMR and elo ideas?

Warmups··13 votes·1,904 views
Matchmaking Guide

TL:DR Maybe time for a new mmr system? (but please read on)

As I have just started playing ranked, I was looking up more about how the rating system as a whole works. As I have been researching the system I have found a couple of things

  1. MMR and elo seem to be solely determined on just what your win percentage is based on . . . the more you win the higher you get placed so you can play people that are more similar to your skill lvl and the more you lose the lower you get placed. This is the match-making system that I believe the riot support page is describing . . . please correct me if im wrong.
  2. In-game stats don't matter when determining mmr . . . which, as stated before, means that win/loss percentage is the only determining factor in a player's mmr which doesn't seem right to me
  3. Riot Games hasn't put out any formula that even tries to describe the mmr calculations. I know that doing so might prompt some players to try to cheat the system but if it is completely based on win/loss percentages I don't see what can go wrong

Now, with all the changes to LOL coming out I was wondering if it was also time to change the ranking system. With champion masteries and the grades you now get after playing a match I don't see how making a mmr system based on the stats that riot uses to give you grades would be a bad thing . . . I mean, riot even said that the grades and champion masteries take into account whether you're playing support or mid.

I've just wanted to promote a change because I feel that a mmr system that seems to be completely based on win/loss% (still wanting a ranking explanation rito) seems to be missing out on a lot of things. First of all, with a ranking system that does account for in game stats, the notion of an "elo hell" would be mostly disproved instantly. You could look at your mmr as something that directly correlates with your gameplay and not as the often percieved "my teammates suck so I'm bronze 6 mentality". I also think that with a change the climbing or tiers and divisions could be less of "I need to play ~70 more ranked games to get into platinum" and more of "I need to start aiming for that A rating so I can effectively climb".

Anyways, just a couple thoughts on the mmr system we have right now. Any feedback (especially from Rioters) about any more pros/cons of a change would be greatly appreciated!

38 Comments

PaulHey186 votes

This is an interesting concept . . . can Rito make a ranking system that goes off the same concept as the champion mastery grades? If it can than I'm down for it. Maybe try the ranking system on a PBE and see how the numbers line up?

SquintEyeAsian4 votes

If riot already has mastery grades than why can't we just try making an mmr system based of it? I mean, if the system is already made to unbiasedly determine a person's skill wouldn't it be what a ranking system should be?

Vistha Kai3 votes

The difference between MMR and ELO is the layer of ladders Rito added. Your visible rank influences only how much LP you will gain or lose.

Other than that everything is taken from the invisible MMR, that in reality, is no different from the old ELO.

PK313 votes

I fail to see how this won't help leave by 80% seems pretty good idea.

Angry Monster2 votes

So you want to punish every support, tank and team player in the game. Cause only selfish players will advance with your terrible idea, breaking down team work and cooperative play.

Yeah please leave league of legends.

PaulHey1810 votes

well, the new mastery system did say that it gives out ratings based on your role. So say for example, you play annie support instead of annie mid. The lol champion mastery will account for that and will reward you for playing that role. Same thing with tanks and team players. If Rito can give out grades for being a good supp/tank/team player than shouldn't they be able to make a ranking system that does the same?

I think that's what he meant . . .

Angry Monster3 votes

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1842719923/38521493

Why should i get more LP than someone else in a game like this? So i took every kill in the early game.... That means punish the ADC that i did not share with, that did not die in those ganks? I rolled early advantages yes but cause i kept rolling does not mean that my team meant nothing just means we were able to work together to a victory, instead of fighting over something.

yes that was a non ranked game, but it was a prefect example.

LP and MMR on theoretical performance is a mistake, that so far riot has said that they will never do. THANKFULLY.

PaulHey187 votes

Well, even though you may have stolen all the early kills, each individual player would still have a way to be graded. For example, just because you are fed and your adc isn't, if your adc plays safe (knowing how much damage she does even when she isn't fed) and teamfights properly then he/she will have an overall good score. Also, because she is an adc there are other things that can be graded that don't have a strong correlation with kills. For example, cs. If you aren't fed, you can still cs . . . Same thing with damage dealt, so what if you stole all the kills, if your adc did more total damage, than good for her, she's a good adc and should thus be rewarded

Melondrama6 votes

{quoted}

Well, even though you may have stolen all the early kills, each individual player would still have a way to be graded. For example, just because you are fed and your adc isn't, if your adc plays safe (knowing how much damage she does even when she isn't fed) and teamfights properly then he/she will have an overall good score. Also, because she is an adc there are other things that can be graded that don't have a strong correlation with kills. For example, cs. If you aren't fed, you can still cs . . . Same thing with damage dealt, so what if you stole all the kills, if your adc did more total damage, than good for her, she's a good adc and should thus be rewarded

pretty much this

Angry Monster1 votes

That is not how things are measured. The system is not going to rate a player very high if they are not in fights.

are other things that can be graded that don't have a strong correlation with kills

Actually you cant in a system where you are looking for merrit points. Every kill should matter and every death should matter. you can not say you want your actions to reflect and then say not getting kills is ok. If their are 15 kills in a game and you only participate in 4 of them, where is the merit?

Also who said i stole them? I went diving behind enemy towers to get those and then got back out with out dying. Some of them were a rush to kill people before they got to tower and others was that i was just so much more fed than the rest of team. Those that are ahead are more likely to get ahead. Team work is still what won the game, even though i had all the kills.

Melondrama6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kaosu Desu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K6BAxjiA,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-06-01T09:02:17.175+0000)

So you want to punish every support, tank and team player in the game. Cause only selfish players will advance with your terrible idea, breaking down team work and cooperative play.

Yeah please leave league of legends.

I get S- on support all the time. high kill/cs count isn't required.

Angry Monster2 votes

Congrats you missed the point(clap). The ADC and mid laner is screwed cause of my score. Tanks are punished for sacrifice plays. The mastery system does not work as inteneded and using it the bases for LP would be a joke.

The ELO system has always been of win and losses only. Imagine if star craft took into account how much you mined or killed. People that FF would be screwing over other players.

Win loss is the only fair way.

Warmups5 votes

Well, I'm not suggesting that the entire LP system be based off the champion masteries. It's just that if riot finds a nice balance between win/loss and masteries, there might be an easier way to quickly determine a player's "actual" mmr in a lesser amount of games. Also, tanks have certain things they can excel at even when they are being "punished". Damage Taken is a very useful indicator of how effective a tank was even if you didn't include kills/deaths into the equation. And about /ff, masteries have to account for time in games. If you have 120 cs in a 15 min game, the champion masteries would consider you better than someone who got 200 cs in 45 min even though they had a higher cs number. The champion masteries don't just account for the raw in-game numbers, it takes into consideration time and role.

However, I do see your point in disbelief of a system that could accurately determine a player's skill just of numbers and equations, but I believe that if Riot worked with the community they could quickly find an efficient system that works better; they could even pave the way for a new ranking system for the entire mmorpg genre.

Angry Monster1 votes

if Riot worked with the community

um no, quickest way to failure.

Melondrama4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kaosu Desu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K6BAxjiA,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2015-06-01T10:57:56.543+0000)

Congrats you missed the point(clap). The ADC and mid laner is screwed cause of my score. Tanks are punished for sacrifice plays. The mastery system does not work as inteneded and using it the bases for LP would be a joke.

The ELO system has always been of win and losses only. Imagine if star craft took into account how much you mined or killed. People that FF would be screwing over other players.

Win loss is the only fair way.

I'm not arguing in favour or against the idea presented in the original post. All I'm saying is, there's more to this game than KDA. The grading system is based on average performance on each champion in the respective role that you're playing them in. If I'm playing a tank it's to be expected that I will die more than my teammates and I will likely take the most damage on my team while having low damage dealt. Therefore, if you die more than a mid laner as a tank it will not be counted against you. However, if you die more than most tank players on the server it will be counted against you. It seemed to me like you thought supports and tanks have to go 30/0 to get S rank or climb elo in OP's system. Getting an S rank isn't all about going 30/0 and 1v5 carrying your team. It's also not comparing you directly with your teammates performance so your performance in that game didn't take anything away from ashe. That Ashe was getting compared to every other Ashe not the Wukong on her team.

Angry Monster1 votes

While you are right their is more to it than KDA. Kills and Assits are a big part of how certain roles are graded.

I am not saying its comparing me to the rest of the team. What i am saying is that certain actions a player has may take away the score of another in that system. ADCs would have a legit reason to freak out over support KS. A kill on a support is not the worst thing in the game, untill it is the difference of 5 LP.

Kills are worth more in every system of measurement.

Melondrama1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kaosu Desu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K6BAxjiA,comment-id=00010001000000010000,timestamp=2015-06-01T19:56:31.262+0000)

While you are right their is more to it than KDA. Kills and Assits are a big part of how certain roles are graded.

I am not saying its comparing me to the rest of the team. What i am saying is that certain actions a player has may take away the score of another in that system. ADCs would have a legit reason to freak out over support KS. A kill on a support is not the worst thing in the game, untill it is the difference of 5 LP.

Kills are worth more in every system of measurement.

They already have legit reason to worry about a ks. The 300 gold doesn't go to them, thus they miss out on getting their next item quicker and their late game gets gated further. That's already in the game. In OP's system, which is based off of the mastery system, that ks doesn't affect their grade much. It might not even affect it at all considering the ADC did all of the damage for that kill and all the teammate did was last hit. There have been times when I've gotten the most or second most kills on my team, died only like 4 times and only gotten like a B+. I then look at my grade, see my low damage output, recap what happened that game, and realize I was just playing cleanup crew the whole game. Meanwhile, the people that I "kill stole" got better grades than I did because they did the majority of the damage. Getting your kills stolen isn't gonna give you a D.

Angry Monster1 votes

They already have legit reason to worry about a ks. The 300 gold doesn't go to them

Sigh, no they don't have a reason to be upset. Such season 2 thinking right here. Go look up how much a kill is worth in pure CS numbers.

Kills do effect grades currently. It one of the several things used. Along with kills is deaths, cs, objectives and wards. The thing is the system is not able to figure out any real meaning beyond hard numbers.

Did you get credit for the dragon y/n? It does not understand spilt pushing or teleporting in home guard fighting the enemy while the jungler finshes the dragon. All it uderstands is who got credit for the dragon not all the little things that made it possible. Same thing with wards, the game does not know what a good ward is, it just knows that X wards were placed. Does it matter that i TP back and quickly bought a sight stone and dropped 30 really quick in the fountain? No cause place of those wards mean nothing, though i would get credit for it.

Mastery system is shit and a joke, If you think it is an accurate representation of anything, you are really clueless. Its something shinny for the less players to look at and feel good about them selves. Its a trick, smoke and mirrors. You will get better at the game when you realize it.

Melondrama1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kaosu Desu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K6BAxjiA,comment-id=0001000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-02T09:14:09.175+0000)

If you think it is an accurate representation of anything, you are really clueless.

Oh look at you, putting words in my mouth. Did you even read the comment above you or any of my comments for that matter? I said from the beginning that I wasn't arguing in favour or against OP's idea. All I wanted to do was have an open discussion on the topic to get a better perspective on the pros and cons of both the current system and the system suggested in the OP, but for some reason you started implying things that no one ever said. I know how much cs makes a kill, it doesn't change the fact that kills are still worth gold and if you roam bot lane and the support gets a double kill you just missed cs for no compensation and wasted your damn time.

WillHealForHonor1 votes

why isnt towers a issue as well.. so much more important imo.. not the kill of a tower but maybe percentage of towers taken.. idk.. i do know it favors adc then.. but it should combined with others stats as well.. like dmg, money earned, dmg taken, few deaths and so on

InTition4 votes

Your point is invalid, you are creating a double standard. So from your point of view, you would rather be "punished" by a team that won't cooperate and throws a game? With the new mastery system it is still possible to get a good grade even when the rest of your team is feeding like they are trying to cure world hunger. I do think that cooperation should still be taken into account, but you should also have a way to climb the ladder without having to rely on whether or not the rest of your team is willing to play as a unit.

Angry Monster1 votes

Actually my point is not invalid. Your attitude here proves why your bronze

RaiseYourBortles2 votes

Anyone else wanna slap this guy?

Angry Monster1 votes

facts are facts. I love when the bronze players show solidarity and then make a thread where then blame each other for their ELO. LOL

RaiseYourBortles1 votes

I get that most of the times it's the teams fault as a whole. But the system he's proposing could help people be able to climb if there is a troll on there team and the game isn't waste of 20 minutes for them. But you telling someone to quit league because they made a decent suggestion of a way to make people more happy w/ the system makes me want to slap you.

Angry Monster1 votes

You are talking about things you do not understand I truly mean this, you guys have no clue what you are talking about. Any system where you put personal achievement into a team game fails and breaks down team work. Their is no universal metric that can be applied to say you deserve something over someone else. You will have people fighting over carry roles (even more than now) and end up punishing people that work towards team work.

I get that you guys are upset about trolls, afks ect, I really do. But that is cause the trolls have slowly fallen to the bottom 30% of the ladder. Over time they will fall to the bottom 10% of the ladder or be punished by riot.

Something to consider though. You are not winning more games than your are losing. I find it a stretch that every game their is a troll or AFK. While they are a problem they are not what is holding you back.

Another thing to consider is that their is always going to be a bottom %. Some people are just going to be overall worse than others. While you think you should climb higher than you are, what proof do you have of this belief? i am not talking about destiny or anything like that, what makes you think this is not where your actual skill level is?

Melondrama1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kaosu Desu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K6BAxjiA,comment-id=000100010000000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-01T22:35:16.650+0000)

I get that you guys are upset about trolls, afks ect, I really do. But that is cause the trolls have slowly fallen to the bottom 30% of the ladder. Over time they will fall to the bottom 10% of the ladder or be punished by riot.

Something to consider though. You are not winning more games than your are losing. I find it a stretch that every game their is a troll or AFK. While they are a problem they are not what is holding you back.

Another thing to consider is that their is always going to be a bottom %. Some people are just going to be overall worse than others. While you think you should climb higher than you are, what proof do you have of this belief? i am not talking about destiny or anything like that, what makes you think this is not where your actual skill level is?

I never said any of this just to throw that out there. I don't mind regardless. I have no trouble winning games at my current elo, I just thought OP's idea was something interesting to think about, discuss, and consider. If the current system is truly the best method then fine. I just think it's interesting to explore ideas and weigh the pros and cons rather than dismissing them without a second thought like some people who are set in their ways would.

Carlitos2 votes

I believe you are right when you say that MMR and Elo are based off wins. I personally haye that it is only based off wins because I play support and there is no way I can carry as a support. I love the idea of doing it on Champion mastery grade because as long as you do your job and do it well, you will recieve a good Champion Mastery grade which is what you should be rewarded for in ranked. Why should I lose Mmr/Elo if my team feeds and I do well? I shouldn't lol and I think your idea fixes this really well. I would love to try this on the PBE server and be apart of the process of testing it out. Good job OP I never had thought of this before but it is a really awesome idea!

Dr Sinistar2 votes

Okay, I feel like I need to leave a couple of comments here.

  1. League used to have an MMR system. Back then there were no leagues or divisions. It was just a number. Dota 2 still has this system. Riot got rid of it (somewhat, I'll explain later) because they felt like players didn't experience any progression as they got better. They only saw a number that rose and fell. Based on what I read I feel like you want that number revealed again, which is something that Riot is very strongly against.

  2. Riot has the current win/loss method of calculation because they don't want players to be fueled by their KDA in games. By keeping progression tied to your win/loss, you keep all players oriented on the win as their main goal. By tweaking the MMR system so that KDA is factored in, you could potentially have a bad KDA and win anyway because of one outplay and still lose MMR. This would frustrate the playerbase greatly.

  3. Behind the scene there actually is an invisible calculator that figures out your MMR. That number goes up or down based on a win. When teams are matched together (AFAIK) the system tries to stack them in favor of each other but will "bet" on one team winning. If you are against the team that it thinks will win and you lose, the lose little LP because the system predicted it. If you win, you get more LP than you would normally because you surprised the system. Same goes if you on the team that it thinks you'll win on.

Also, elo hell does not exist. Every player in every league thinks that they're in elo hell. You're only stuck in elo hell if you're just not good enough to climb out. To get out of elo hell you focus on yourself and how you can personally get better.

ForTheNguyen402 votes

People want to create a system based on performance in game but wouldn't that ruin the point of League of Legends? It is a pretty objective based game with the Dragon, Baron, towers etc. Getting those objectives allows you to win the game. If a system is created based on performance, all that goes down the drain. It's no longer about teamwork and working towards a common goal (objectives) to overpower the enemy team. Everyone will become self-conscious about kills and brush away objectives. This game will turn into a game similar to a death match where kills are everything.

TParker911 votes

Just wondering, if Riot doesn't use in-game stats for ranking . . . THEN WHY DO THEY HAVE GRADES AT THE END OF A GAME!?!?

Angry Monster2 votes

And people like you are why the mastery system was and is a bad idea.

TrackerBeta2 votes

Riot does use stats for ranking, just not in ranked (if that makes sense). The original idea was to apply that ranking system that gives you a letter grade and to apply it to the ranked system.

IlIFences1 votes

I believe that this is a very good idea because it could combine the teamwork aspect with more of the individual statistics that riot can balance so as to create a fair ranking system for all players

WillHealForHonor1 votes

the thing is i often die alot but i often get towers for it and ensure victory that way..

Mandang01 votes

This would encourage players to play for their score rather than for their team. Even if you're comparing them to similar play on their champion via the mastery system, you're still gonna get players freaking out about cs or trying to play hyper aggro in lane.

Riot's matchmaker can suck, but the ELO system is still a good idea.

Lv16 Flaaffy1 votes

I think it needs to be rewritten. Yes, communication is important, but if the enemy top is 23/4/10 and our top is 10/6/3 and everyone keeps following in and dying why should I have to suffer (as a support main)?

"Guys don't go into enemy jg with no vision, please upgrade your trinkets" then they continue to die, then I am told (you should follow with them so that way it can be a 5v5 instead of a 4v5" yeah so that way they can get a penta? It's happened so many times then I get told "well looking at your match history you died quite a few times.." that's because I was following my team into enemy jg with no vision taking advice from people saying "5v5 is always better than 4v5" and yet my scores look horrible because of that.

Some people literally do not know how to group or when to back off when they are over extending, yet this still reflects me. Believe or not Riot, I can't babysit the whole game every player and tell them what not to do because even when I do that they still don't listen.

I love being penalized for other's actions.

UrgotToBeKidding1 votes

No, this will never work.

Why? Because your score is determined by the strength of your opponents. Going 0-5 against a diamond 5 smurf is not the same as going 0-5 to a bronze 5. Extend to this analogy to tanking and supporting.

Basically, a lot of it will be luck. Games are not always exactly perfectly matched.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes