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Vayne's True DMG % Alternative

Vaping Penguin··5 votes·1,087 views

Vayne's w Passive has no real counter, whatever people say. True Randuin's omen and frozen heart counters her attack speed, but when she goes full attack speed you will still die faster than you can kill her. Therefore i would suggest completly removing her % True dmg scaling. Instead of making it % make it a flat dmg. so it goes like this instead,

W - Silver Bolts True Damage Dealt - 80/110/140/170/200

If that doesn't work make it lower like W - Silver Bolts True damage Dealt - 50/70/90/110/130 Health Percentage Dealt - 1%/1.5/2%/2.5%/3%

Some of you might say this is a nerf and yea it is, but it is also a buff. Because vayne has no problems dealing with Tanks even without buying any tank shred items, which is unfair for tanks. No matter how much Armor, Magic Resist or health they buy, they can't do shit against a Attack speed vayne who knows how to play the character. Because of that it allows her to trade with frontlines without much risk, unless its 2v1 or 3v1 but unless the Tank is Fed he won't do shit to her, and if Vayne is played well, then it doesn't matter if the tank is fed.

I know vayne isn't the strongest, but i know that she is the best counter against tanks. I don't think her true damage should be removed, but it should be altered to allowe healthier playstyle. Her W does less dmg on squishies but she deals the same amount of health dmg no matter how much hp the target has, therefore it should be altered.

Im open to new suggestions

But this is my opinion of course if you can open my eyes to why it shouldn't be altered im all ears.

Sincerely TGFantasy

40 Comments

Nagoh Shan5 votes

Flat damage doesn't work.

If it's too high, it's unfair to low health targets, and becomes unmanageable burst. If it's too low, it's balanced vs low health targets and not useful vs tanks.

Vayne's supposed to be a threat vs both, like Fiora, so the only way to maintain a similar TTK vs both types of targets is to make it based on a percentage of health.

Vaping Penguin1 votes

Yes she is supposed to be a threat to both, but you can't counter it. Against cho'gath you can buy Health or make sure to kill him before you reach the treshhold because if he builds AP then he usually is a little squishy and he is big and easily hit by various skill shots. Therefore he has a counter on his ult, Yet against Vayne's W you can't do shit unless your team permstuns her, and tell me which frontline with a sense of dignity would allow your team to walk up to her and perm stun her until she is dead or close to? I didn't say she shouldn't be a threat to tanks, but she is to much of a threat. when i play tank i always ban her for that sole reason being her W being to strong. The only counter is prob Garens W which works for like 3.5 secs max. If they want it to keep being as what it is now, they should add something which adds True damage Reduction. Or else they should rework her eniterely because that W prob won't ever be balanced either for Squishies or for tanks, which makes it so broken.

Vayne ruins the experience of playing tanks, that is the short story.

Nagoh Shan1 votes

Sometimes the counter to damage isn't tankyness, it's damage.

The reason Vayne isn't meta, is because her damage actually isn't balanced right now, it's weak. Other ADCs can just demolish her, and her standardized time to kill for all targets is much worse than the base damage TTK that other ADCs, Mages, and Assassins enjoy against her.

Assassins, Mages, and other carry champs. She just dies unless -they- make a mistake. Her play isn't really in her hands as much as her opponent not simply killing her.

Primaquarius2 votes

I suggested this a few months ago in a rework idea, but that got buried. If you want to see it, go through my post history a bit

Vaping Penguin1 votes

They should seriously remove those 12% because even if you say you can just buy randuins it only takes 9 procs from that alone to kill a target, whether they have armor or not, and that is counting that she only has attack speed and no Botrk or any AD at all. If she has Botrk and a Statikk shiv, which also gives crit and movement speed, it allows her to deal so much dmg alongside her 12% true dmg without building a lord dominik's regard.

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

[{quoted}](name=God Fishy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JrIF00HE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-09-20T18:33:48.287+0000)

They should seriously remove those 12% because even if you say you can just buy randuins it only takes around 10 procs from that alone to kill a target, whether they have armor or not, and that is counting that she only has attack speed and no Botrk or any AD at all.

13 because of HP regen, but yes.

Brain Errör 4046 votes

13 procs is 39 autos. You people make it sound like that's a cake walk. That's a good chunk of auto attacks.

Vaping Penguin1 votes

but how long does it take when you have 2.00 att speed, plus you deal 6% extra dmg from botrk in phys and you deal 180 dmg with a crit chance of 70%+

She kills tanks for breakfast, in less than 10 seconds, her ult gives her extra dmg aswell further increasing her dmg, and her Q was buffed so it works better with her ult aswell. that is a late game Vayne, early she is weaker but still deadly if she is attack speed, her only weakness is probably either to low dmg compared to att speed, and her w isn't maxed or she doesn't have lifesteal. But when she gets full build well, your fucked unless the enemy team leaves her behind for 1v5.

Brain Errör 4042 votes

It depends because you're not just going to sit there and go pew pew. You have to take into consideration re-positioning, dodging a skill shot, keeping distance and actually making good use of your ulti. Vayne is 10x more squisher than people make her out to be. If you buy a pink ward you negate her damage dodging and juking abilities.

Vayne excels because a smart vayne re-positions in a way that their enemies can't really react to where she is at the time. That's why pink wards are so effective, you take away her stealth, you take away her advantage. She still does enough damage to outplay even with pinks, but that's only if you let her. She also has the shortest range of all adcs with NO extension skill, so she is almost always in someone's face making her an easy target for punishment.

Just learn to play around her. As a Vayne main, I won't lie by saying she isn't annoying or frustrating to play against when played well, but there are so many ways to shut her down that she just isn't even worth picking. If you watch pro streams you'd realize most adc mains consider Vayne a useless champ, and for good reason. Even Gosu thinks Vayne is currently in a bad spot.

Abyssphere1 votes

You act as if any tank wouldn't die to an ADC in 39 auto attacks. Whether it's Vayne or Lucian, you don't survive an ADC hitting you for 20 seconds.

Vaping Penguin1 votes

Never said that, i said that she is able theoretically to kill any person with 39 basic attacks, with no AD required and only attack speed. I didn't say you would survive that many basic attacks from a Draven, Ashe or anyone else. I made a point how much it deals in DMG. I also said that vayne with only 180 dmg against lets say full armor tank deals around 30% of his health on 6 basic attacks.

Blue Kaozi2 votes

She is supposed to kill tanks and win 1v1, thats her niche. She falls off fairly hard if you group / have good engage. She pays for it with a relatively weak laning phase. I hate vayne as much as the next ADC guy, but youre complaining about her doing what shes DESIGNED to do. Don't fight her without reliable cc and a pink.

Vaping Penguin1 votes

how will you have a pink when your late game? sell your Randuins or whichever item you build to have it as counter? yea her laning phase is weak the first 4 - 5 levels but if you play her fairly safe or with a premade or support which knows how to help you out you won't feel that weak phase, i don't mind her being able to shred tanks i mind her doing so with no AD at all, simply because of a passive. I don't mind her being able to solo tanks, but tanks should have a chance even against worse skilled Vayne's. And yes she is easily ganged up on early and mid game, but if she runs with her team or stays near a tower. Then you will have to go 4v2 or 5v5 and then how are you going to do so easily? And 4v2 is meant being under tower or so in her lane being ganked by mid and jgl'er.

Boulderox2 votes

one thing people don't realize, her ult gives her flat ad... so flat damage on w could work, and the fact her q is used in tandem with her AA's and that is a steroid AA. which makes having her w weaker but have more gameplay shifted to q damage, i feel would balance out the kit.

And maybe make a dedicated ward slot... because lets face it, at 45 min with full items, you can't counter stealth... it isn't fairitem 3364 doesn't show you where they are, just where they were recently... item 2043 is the only way to counter stealth and late game vayne is what she wins at and there isn't a way to keep tabs on her to actually win without having to all in her before a fight starts.

Vaping Penguin1 votes

Exacly my point, her kit is very strong but right now the main point everyone build around is only her W, pretty much only using the rest as support and you get an basic attack with extra dmg + escape or movement away from danger with her Q.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

flat damage + flat damage = flat towers

And don't just say "but it doesn't have to work on towers" because then you've just got a shit ability and a nerf that needs some compensation now that vayne no longer exists

Boulderox1 votes

{quoted}

flat damage + flat damage = flat towers

And don't just say "but it doesn't have to work on towers" because then you've just got a shit ability and a nerf that needs some compensation now that vayne no longer exists

didn't they just make it so her q procs on towers? then please enlighten the board, what can be done when the only way to counter vaynes bs 12% max hp is to slow her as a little and hope you can kill her within that slow duration?

CerealBoxOfDoom2 votes

AS slows, healing, shields, and just any other general evasion equivalents are effective against vayne. Her passive damage really just makes defense about 25% less effective against her so you can also just make smart purchases. Maybe instead of that item 3075 you could get a item 3078 or item 3025

actually the latter would help your team the most against her as a tank. item 3116 works too if the others aren't a good idea.

Btw I should mention that attack speed vayne gets less damage out of her Q and E so she actually has less "burst" This means that there is a wider range of champs that can kill her especially if you have something like item 3053 item 3078 item 3742

btw item 3742 is another great item against vayne and I theorize that item 3053 is probably more effective against her just like it is against fiora than some of the stuff most people are building. I imagine something like item 3053 item 3025 item 3748 item 3075 item 3009 item 3083 would just make her shit her hotpants a little on a tank if your team just REALLY needs to kill her specifically otherwise if you just want to live I guess you could do something like item 3143 item 3110 item 3025 item 3102 item 3053 + item 3047 or item 3111

These builds probably aren't even optimal.. but theyre good enough.

also if youre just shitting around and think a fighter that builds hp is a tank then you could get something like item 3078 item 3053 item 3153 item 3009 item 3742 item 3102

keep in mind I mention BV because her knockback is the only thing that can proc it last I checked, if anything else could it would be her bork active or her E, either of which would actually almost buy her a few extra seconds to kill you on top of her stealth which buys her a bit more time most of the time.

Note that with that last build you want to just shit on her with frontloaded damage with a teammate. If you want to just be a solohero and kill her just build some damage and flaunt some chesthair, its not that complicated. Bork is there for the slow, slow's actually do effect vayne

Boulderox1 votes

one bravo, thank fucking god someone can actually give input on ways to stop her than simple "beat around the bush" advice. The only thing i would like to say is that these are designed SOLEY to hinder a vayne, while you have to be able to hinder 4 others as well. The BV is a great call i would say, i am interested to know if her Q breaks it or not which could be a problem.

But thank your, truly.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

9/10 people will give you the shorthand answer if you don't dig deeper.

I'm just an outlier in the sense I essentially talk too much or type in this case.

Not out of habit but rather because I have other responsibilities I happen to be avoiding at the moment

Astôlfo1 votes

That feeling when people are crying about Vayne, of all champions.

Vaping Penguin1 votes

She is one of many, but you have to start somewhere :p beside i could list a lot of champions which needs a "balance" in my opinion but i think vayne needs it the most which was why i tried to bring it up for discussion.

Astôlfo1 votes

She isn't problematic though.

Vaping Penguin1 votes

How so?

Astôlfo1 votes

Why would she be? Her true damage? Her entire kit is balanced around it.

It takes up one of her four abilities as a sole passive with no active. Her weak is extremely early. She's the literal epitome of a true late-game hypercarry. Attack speed slows do exist. So does point-and-click CC. So does just landing a skillshot after she uses her Q by forcing her to Q beforehand. Yes, it has like a 1.25s CD lategame. No, she will not survive if she gets hit by CC long enough to use it again. She's entirely single-target. She's one of the squishiest champions in the game. She rarely builds lifesteal until lategame, if that, with the exception of BOTRK. Without a nearby wall, her only peel against a target that can just jump her is E. Yes, her ultimate makes her stealthed upon using Q for like 1 second. No, that is not a ridiculously long time. Pinks do exist in pre-full build. Using sweepers/etc also exist at full build. You don't necessarily have to be able to target her when you can just hit her with a skillshot anyways, or a massive AoE for the same effect. Also, if it got to the point where most people are full build, that's so far into lategame that you really shouldn't have a large chance of winning at all against a good Vayne.

Vaping Penguin1 votes

You say there are attack speed slows, true but against a almost full Attack speed vayne its only prolonging your death but a short amount. Also are you going to build it on all champions against her, like ADC, supp, mid, top and jgl'er? No you don't she just has to focus something else if its really needed. And sure there are point and click CC, but you have to get close to hit them? and there are 4 people in front of her unless she does something wrong, the skillshot CC? Well still 4 people in front hard hitting her. True she is Squishy, but when you lose 30% hp before you reach her as melee or when ranged is out DPS'ed in 1v1 and she has a lot of lifesteal due to Botrk or bloodthirtster then she needs multiple enemies to attack her, which she can easily get out of depending on the place she is and the people she fights. I don't mind how her ult enchances her Q with stealth, and i don't think its Overpowered, but a sweeper sure as hell doesn't help you, it gives you her location of where she "Was" not where she is and you can't see her literally or attack her making it an incomplete counter. and pinks in a full build only makes it so you have 1 less item than the rest. If her W should be nerfed im not saying she should stay the same, i would encourage her getting buffed in other areas, but not when her W is as it is.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

[{quoted}](name=God Fishy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JrIF00HE,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-09-20T18:24:11.132+0000)

Vayne's w Passive has no real counter, whatever people say. True Randuin's omen and frozen heart counters her attack speed, but when she goes full attack speed you will still die faster than you can kill her. Therefore i would suggest completly removing her % True dmg scaling. Instead of making it % make it a flat dmg. so it goes like this instead,

W - Silver Bolts True Damage Dealt - 80/110/140/170/200

If that doesn't work make it lower like W - Silver Bolts True damage Dealt - 50/70/90/110/130 Health Percentage Dealt - 1%/1.5/2%/2.5%/3%

Some of you might say this is a nerf and yea it is, but it is also a buff. Because vayne has no problems dealing with Tanks even without buying any tank shred items, which is unfair for tanks. No matter how much Armor, Magic Resist or health they buy, they can't do shit against a Attack speed vayne who knows how to play the character. Because of that it allows her to trade with frontlines without much risk, unless its 2v1 or 3v1 but unless the Tank is Fed he won't do shit to her, and if Vayne is played well, then it doesn't matter if the tank is fed.

I know vayne isn't the strongest, but i know that she is the best counter against tanks. I don't think her true damage should be removed, but it should be altered to allowe healthier playstyle. Her W does less dmg on squishies but she deals the same amount of health dmg no matter how much hp the target has, therefore it should be altered.

Im open to new suggestions

But this is my opinion of course if you can open my eyes to why it shouldn't be altered im all ears.

Sincerely TGFantasy

Ok

one this nerf is stupid. There is counterplay to vaynes w and armor/hp does actually work against vayne herself forcing her to rely on her W a lot.

two this nerf is also a buff that will break the fucking shit out of attack speed vayne. OH LAWDY THE POOR TANKS NEED EVEN MOAR HELP LETS MAKE VAYNE SHIT ON TOWERS EVEN HARDER THAN EVER BEFORE

three vayne is not the best counter to tanks. Tanks, built to counter her actually only die maybe 25-30% quicker at most against her if she happens to be in range and focusing them maybe 40% if they are just not built against her at all or you aren't really talking about a tank. 50% if they are stupid or noob. None of which is really that big an issue since survival is not a tank's job. It is but a single advantage that may assist them in doing their job.

Btw vayne has low range, what this means isn't that a smart vayne can't kite you. What it actually means is that on a vayne team focusing down the adc is always an option unlike say if they have blue ezreal, cait, or ashe

Vaping Penguin1 votes

I understand what you mean completly when you say that you should focus her in teamfights, and that its easier than against Ez, cait or ashe. But its easier said than done, and yea armor and hp does help, but not against her W, hp only makes her need to deal more AD if she wants the same dmg% against you, but her DMG against tanks is mainly True dmg, and her dmg against mages or non squishies is Phys. I don't mind her shredding tanks, and this is just a hurried thought up alternative im not saying it should be like this. It is a suggestion. In my opinion she should get reworked when the most needed champs are out of the way, champs like urgot. Because her W is unhealthy. Besides the armor only defends against her 180 max AD most vaynes don't build more than that. But they have att speed around 2.00+ i want vayne not only to be played Attack speed but also dmg because her kit allows a balance between the two, but because her W is so much more rewarding than building a balance, why try at all? there isn't a reason to get more AD, because what you might need you get with ur ult.

CerealBoxOfDoom2 votes

[{quoted}](name=God Fishy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JrIF00HE,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-09-20T19:18:07.105+0000)

I understand what you mean completly when you say that you should focus her in teamfights

I didn't say that, what I said was that it is always an option. She can't attack you safely.

and that its easier than against Ez, cait or ashe. But its easier said than done

Any and everything is easier said than done.

and yea armor and hp does help, but not against her W, hp only makes her need to deal more AD if she wants the same dmg% against you

So what youre telling me is that I can control what vayne builds and who she is most effective against?

, but her DMG against tanks is mainly True dmg, and her dmg against mages or non squishies is Phys.

Her damage against a well built tank is close to 15% true damage with AD and closer to 30-40% or 50% if she's ahead.

which is actually COMPLETELY FINE

What her ability actually does is reduces the effectiveness of defensive stats by some percentage based on her attack speed and how often she can actually afford to attack you. There is nothing wrong with this. There is no situation in which building defense against vayne does nothing and if vayne is forced to build attack speed then this will limit her build options as well.

Squishies can just kill vayne they don't need to stack a tone of 25% (on average) less effective gear. If they can't kill vayne then they need to do the same thing they always do when they cant fight an adc, avoid them. That's what boots are for and that's why vayne gets no free escape once she goes in unless she's wasting her ult for it.

I don't mind her shredding tanks, and this is just a hurried thought up alternative im not saying it should be like this. It is a suggestion. In my opinion she should get reworked when the most needed champs are out of the way, champs like urgot. Because her W is unhealthy.

Her W actually is very healthy. All adcs should probably have something closer to vayne's W which recently they tend to because riot also recognizes that vayne is actually the one with the clean design. If anything is wrong with her its actually that ult of hers

Besides the armor only defends against her 180 max AD most vaynes don't build more than that. But they have att speed around 2.00+ i want vayne not only to be played Attack speed but also dmg because her kit allows a balance between the two, but because her W is so much more rewarding than building a balance, why try at all? there isn't a reason to get more AD, because what you might need you get with ur ult.

against tanks her W is more rewarding if they don't or can't hit back. AS vayne gives you more chances to interrupt her damage since she cant just toss a chunk out at you or change which target she focuses too much. CC counters attack speed vayne.

The problem with most ppl versing vayne is that they keep stacking defense after they have enough and then vayne shreds through your diminished returns like it was nothing.

That's right, I said defense has diminishing returns. Not in the literal sense but in the value sense.

Your build is item 3143 item 3143 item 3143 item 3143 item 3143

which one is more likely to help you win item 3078 or another item 3143

the answer is situational but a lot of bad players just cry and stack another item 3143 like an idiot so they can cry some more about how they did everything right and vayne is just unfair because they are a tank when in reality the tank just needed to help their team burst the bitch down and put her on a 60 second death timer at this point in the game, especially since their build was shit to begin with

Vaping Penguin1 votes

What you say makes sense, and maybe the fault isn't with her W but how it works with her ult. But you can only stack randuin once on a char unless everyone builds it. Of course you might have mean that if you meant stacking. But some people also need to be able to deal damage or else the rest of the team can't deal with the rest of the team because the chances of vayne getting killed in a 5v5 first with no casalties is low, not only because her ult + q stealth. But because how 5v5 usually happen. I have a better understanding of what is meant " i think" and i would like to thank you for taking your time explaining it to me, it really opened my eyes. I may still think its unfair but your point is really valid. and maybe i don't know how to counter her in my playstyle. well anyway thanks for the Explanation.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

I think its not your playstyle but your definition of counter.

At the end of the day tanks are not immortal and the enemy team has invested in making them about 30% less immortal.

When vayne is countered she doesn't die uselessly, her nexus explodes same as when you actually counter any champ.

Vaping Penguin1 votes

im not considering tanks immortal but being able to lose 30% hp in around 2 seconds of time is a lot. I was only trying to point that out, tho it is like that for every other champion, it doesn't make sense to me why someone who builds to take a hit should be just as squishy as someone who doesn't under vayne's gaze or atleast close to the same. I don't know, maybe you are right but i haven't found the answer yet then, or the right definition of a counter.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

on average a champ with ok defense should be dying in 2-3 seconds and a tank tends to die in 3-4 seconds against chaps with heavy damage, adcs are supposed to be able to kill tanks and losing 30% of your hp in 2 seconds is nothing special. What's important for a tank isn't just survival its what you do in those few seconds you have. Vayne can do very little to stop a real tank from doing their job

Vaping Penguin1 votes

I am sorry but i have never experienced a tank dying in 3-4 seconds against an ADC before, i have in situations where i was focused on by multiple people or was against a vayne. Because the Dominik's was nerfed to only hit onto people with bonus armor and not the whole armor it's effectivity went down. idk from before but atleast on the lvl i play[i play normals because i don't feel like playing ranked] i don't die in 3-4 seconds maybe in higher elo you do which i cannot tell. But it sounds crazy that a tank would die in 3-4 seconds even against normal carries

Thanks for sharing this info i did not know this.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

well how about this.

How much damage should vayne be doing to tanks over 3 seconds? Or how many seconds should tanks last against vayne?

Vaping Penguin1 votes

i wouldn't know how long they should, because against other ADC's it depends on whether they build lord dominiks or not. If they don't i can survive 10 secs + easily. And if they are i would say around 7-8 seconds if i pressure them right. If talking letting them basic attack while i stand still i would say around 5-6 seconds

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDR26n82PRY

10 seconds? careful what you wish for. That survival power either comes from items or their kits, either way it will get abused. Singed isn't really a tank but he's close and will be abusing anything that allows tanks to survive a long time

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

Look at all those Vayne fanboys downvotes

ZephyrDrake1 votes

so essentially make her kill the squishies she is already going to kill even faster? she is meant to be equally as effective against both squishies and tanky opponents not make her ineffective against tanks. Why would i bother picking her then? i can just play any other random ADC and still kill any squishy target in a few autos regardless and from a much safer position and still do relatively decent damage against tanks.

If you want to lower her true damage against tanks by that much (no point in having it since anything that's not a tank will just die before a second proc of Silver Bolts regardless of anything) then you will need to buff the hell out of her, whether it'd be her range, skills or other base stats

GaleWinUnleashed1 votes

Please remember that despite the true damage, the majority of Vayne's damage is still physical.

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