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Kog'Maw win rates PLUMMET

ThunderTaco··126 votes·17,276 views
Champion.gg - Kog'Maw ADC Stats, Builds, Runes, Masteries and Counters

46.18% win rate on champ.gg

The label "revert" is a lie. It isn't a revert. A revert shouldv'e given Kog everything he had. And it didn't. It's lipstick on a voidling.

-W. Currently has a mana cost. This skill, before the marksmen update, was no cost. Why was this left out? Being able to Use W at no cost gave Kog at least some staying power in lane phase.

-R. this has been covered, but any Kog player, not just ap mid, but ADC as well, knew that being able to throw R barrages for Trinity forc procs was a big part of his damage. I'm sorry but the reasons given to the community to keep it what it is simply aren't supported by facts. It served the same role as Corki's R. Currently it has no place anywhere in his kit. It hurts too much to use. It's useless.

Regardless, the proof's in the pudding. his win rate is pathetic. He's been Kalista'd. Best part? All this happened RIGHT AFTER pledges at better Game Dev transparency. I'm calling you out, Riot. Make good on your pledge to be more forthcoming and address this.

I know this will probably get buried under Worlds Posts. Whatever. I'm calling you guys liars. Don't lable something a "revert" when you know what it really is.

TL;DR the Kog update is not a "revert", it's a lie.

EDIT: It appears that some have taken this statement to mean I am wanting the Kog from marksmen rework back. I do not. I did not like his rework. It was too binary. I was really happy to hear about the revert. That's why I'm so disappointed. I am asking for a FULL revert, not this trash.

I recognize that this rework needs time to "sort itself out" but I'm confident that this state of Kog will not climb much if any.

My whole point is Meddler stating that "pre-marksmen Kog was balanced", but when questioned why the R or W weren't getting full revert treatment, a contradiction was stated; "they were too oppressive". That doesn't make any sense and isn't based on any facts. Old Kog, ap or adc, was never a dominant pick in Solo or competitive.

232 Comments

Eedat53 votes

I'm not sure what Riot expected when they reverted him. This isnt the meta where he farms against a Trist for 25 minutes anymore. He gets utterly annihilated by armor pen ADCs. Constant 4 man gang bangs in bot lane every game while Kog has no hard CC or escape to deal with them. Games very rarely reach the super late game where he is relative at all and he's not even the greatest late game ADC. On top of that he is massively team dependent and a free kill by himself.

There are dozens of reason to not play Kog and very few reasons you would want to. He has range, but its about the same as Jinx or late game Trist and he only gets it half the time? Still not as good of a tank buster than Vayne and not nearly as independent as her. His poke with ult was gutted yet Riot refuses to change it back even though they called it a "revert"

In the end you have a champ who is absolute garbage early, still garbage mid, and meh late game. RIP koggles.

Elikain1 votes

It isn't hard to purchase a Youumu's on him as well. In fact, there is no reason not to if every ADC can synergize with it and are more or less buying it to circumvent being slow and give a steroid to a rather simple kit. One of the reasons Kog is perhaps on the weak side is that he depends on his team's composition and like you said, can't survive the early game thanks to the early armor pen in ADC builds.

When Riot makes adjustments in the pre-season, they'd said Youumu's and Duskblade are on the table for changes. The only question is if people are willing to wait for Kog's natural incorporation into the meta with the upcoming item changes or are they going to demand buffs to artificially inflate his winrate and then suffer through inevitable nerfs when he rises to the top, once these items are nefred.

Eedat19 votes

Yeah, their is a huge reason you are neglecting. He has a single AD ratio and that's on his ult that does magic damage. His on-hit is also magic damage. Literally every other aspect of his kit is magic damage. Youmuus is trash on him

Elikain2 votes

In what way is Youmuu's trash on him? His reverts were W specific and that means he no longer has a penalty on AAs when W is active. Which means any damage or crit/AS he gets only gets amped with longer range and % HP damage that his W already gives. Where does it state that by having % HP damage in his kit, you are required to build on-hit items on him and that nothing else works? The fact that this on-hit build has become the norm does not negate the existence and viability of his other builds that are more akin to Marksmen.

He uses armor pen as everyone else who uses Youmuu's. He uses AS boost, just like everyone else who uses Youmuu's. His primary method of attacks are his AAs, which Youmuu's boosts. He uses the MS boost, because he's immobile.

Sounds like a perfect item for him. Despite the popular opinion, Kog does not need every on-hit item to fill his inventory. A traditional Marskmen build works just fine.

And what about his AP damage on W? That's always been there. And yet, no Kogs when played on bot, ever attempted to build any AP ever. So far, the only thing that ever gets popularity as a viable build is what goes on in pro play as many of you never think with your own heads but simply adopt the meta. Lucian and MF were never built with BC or Youmuu's and yet, here we are. A product of Korean "outside of the box" logic. Whoever invented that build didn't "invent" it at all. They attempted something different and it worked. Then it spilled over to all regions.

That's the whole reason why Vayne was a trash pick for a long time. People keep forcing BotRK on her for no reason (when there are no tanks) and choose to boost her Silver Bolts when in fact, they need more damage with less attacks. Then when they fall behind, the game needs to last a full hour so that they can catch back up and buy the actual AD items in order to be unstoppable with a 1/10 score. Literally turning around the game all by herself and having done nothing the entire game.

Eedat2 votes

Youmuu's is garage on him because you are stacking AD on a champ with a single AD ratio. You are stacking armor pen on a champ that does mixed damage.

The AD doesnt stack well with the rest of his kit. The armor pen doesnt apply to most of his kit.

What part of this is hard to get? Should I build Youmuus on Veigar because he's immobile? Because it makes about as much sense as building it on Kog

FantasySniper2 votes

Wit's End is better than Youmuu's on Kog.

And that's saying something, since Wit's End does nowhere near as much damage as Youmuu's.

Elikain1 votes

It isn't anymore. It was before his partial reverts as his W reduced his damage. That left all of the item effects intact so Kog was literally having to build only on-hit items as any stat that boosted his damage suffered when his W was active.

Again, there is no reason not to build damage on Kog as he no longer has these penalties. Don't let the popular opinion cloud your judgement. How do you think Korean MF and Lucian builds came into existence in the first place and then suddenly, it became the norm for these champions? It definitely wasn't meta, it was an experiment that gave the best results and was spread across the regions.

FantasySniper2 votes

MF and Lucian build it because they can deal a lot of physical damage very quickly. Kog doesn't deal enough physical damage early to build Youmuu's, and when it comes to late there's no room left in his build for it.

Elikain1 votes

Youmuu's active, armor pen and damage it gives, gives Kog enough physical damage + his own W added % HP damage, extra range and his own AS steroid to make it work. It's like you're deliberately forgetting that Youmuu's isn't a commodity of an item that only the fastest of Marksmen can use.

Kog Maw is a Marksman. And he isn't forced into on-hit itemization anymore, which his update brought up that has now been reverted. What you're all doing is appealing to popular opinion of Kog and refuse to accept that there are more items he can use but no one wants to because it's not what the meta dictates. Unless someone else makes this leap and spreads it around because it actually works better and earlier than his current on-hit builds, you're just going to accept the reality and his weaknesses and ask for buffs, without exploring any other options.

MF and Lucian have never built Youmuu's as all of the Marksmen have built the same items designed for them. Youmuu's was essentially an assassin item before Marskmen started picking it up. A few of those switched to Korean builds and they originated not long ago in Korea. Those builds certainly weren't off meta or even recognized as builds before that exposure.

Just to keep you informed, i've played Ashe (pre-marksmen update version) with a Youmuu's and i've found the item had a lot of uses, especially when i was looking for maxing CD in her build. That was even before the ER changes and crit CD scaling. Youmuu's is not at all that different now and it most certainly works on all Marksmen, no matter who they are. Even a Vayne with a Youmuu's instead of that dumb BotRK build has more success in the early game, which is exactly what Youmuu's was designed for.

FantasySniper2 votes

Youmuu's was actually re-purposed into an assassin's item. It was originally an ADC item back when it had crit chance on it. It's just that no one found it worth building because it had shit stats and it built out of the shit Avarice Blade. Very few assassins built it as well, and they usually only did it in IE+Ghostblade builds on Talon. Que Preseason of 6 (after Ashe's rework) and it gets turned into a proper assassin item. Oodles of AD and an active that makes it extremely efficient for a few moments. Which is why it was finally finally picked up on ADCs; because caster-marksman that do a lot of physical damage in a short time period can take advantage of it. Guess what Kog does? A lot of hybrid damage over a longer period of time. Corki does his own hybrid damage faster, yet not even he builds it.

Elikain1 votes

Except that Corki is a caster Marksmen, even more than Lucian and MF and he avoids buying items that require of him to duel, if he doesn't have to. Trinity Force is a much better item for him. Corki even has his own Valkyrie, enhanced with his Package even further. So he doesn't even need it for the mobility purposes. If he buys Youmuu's for 3200 gold, he wastes 1790 gold because the active is not efficiently used at all.

He also sports a really balanced hybrid damage, as his AD is equally split across the board into physical and magic damage. He usually avoids crit items such as Runaan's, PD, Shiv and goes for straight AD items to boost his poke and burst. RFC may be built on him as it can enhance his burst with a TF proc from a longer range. He can also ignore any armor penetration as he deals half of his damage in magic damage. His opponents can't protect themselves unless they equally build two resistance types to counter him.

No Marksman does damage over a longer period of time. They are a DPS role and this strictly depends on their crit, AS and damage at how much they can dish out. If you build on-hit items, that's exactly why you're not doing more solid damage earlier into the game as you need a few of those effects to stack on top of each other to be considered good. And you need AS to do it faster.

While AD items function better from 1 or 2+ item buys, depending if you have a steroid in your kit or not. Kog has a steroid and Youmuu's gives him one as well. On top of the flat arpen, the squishies he fights against don't stack high armor, which further increases his damage potential.

So again, his Youmuu's purchase may not be in the meta but he loses nothing if he builds it and attempts building more straightforward items than wanting to be the late game wet dream that's currently not working. And it's not just the Youmuu's, it's his entire build that needs some real damage, not pseudo damage through on-hit effects.

FantasySniper2 votes

Corki wastes the Arm.Pen., not the active portion, since only 20% of his damage is physical damage. Half of Kog's damage is physical, so even though he still has some gains from the Arm.Pen., they don't make up for his lack of AD scaling. Let's compare that to Miss Fortune and Lucian, who both deal around 90% physical damage and have insane AD scaling on their abilities. Are you starting to see the pattern? Kog'Maw doesn't find an item like Youmuu's efficient whatsoever when he could have a useful attack speed item like Runaan's, Wit's End, BotRK.

Elikain1 votes

Youmuu's is a duelist item and as long as Kog is dueling, Youmuu's active and passive portion + stats it offers always pay off. Kog is a Marksman and Marksmen use Youmuu's on occasion. Even Vayne and Twitch buy it. Vayne doesn't even have anything besides AAs in her kit and all of her abilities are AA modifiers.

Buying items purely for AS on Kog is the reason why he is weak and people complain. They don't build any damage on him and then ask themselves why doesn't he do any. I find that baffling. Try buying an actual AD item on for once and you'll see improvements. Move away from the build that doesn't work and find something that does - just like Lucian and MF did.

FantasySniper2 votes

BotRK is a duelist item. It has target-oriented effects and much better serves duelists in general. Vayne and Kog almost always buy it. Youmuu's is a burst item. It has a lot of stats to scale off of that benefit casters more than marksman. Vayne and Kog almost never buy it.

Elikain1 votes

AS and MS aren't stats that help burst champions at all. Burst champions don't deal the full brunt of their damage through AAs but abilities. MF is a caster, Lucian is not. The fact that he goes with his armor pen build is the problem and i won't justify anything he builds to pose as a caster. He has caster traits for sure but he is a duelist by nature. His kit is designed to be. As soon as he gets the mobility of a duelist and caster qualities from his kit and the items he builds, we have a problem.

Youmuu's isn't a burst item at all. It's a duelist item. Duskblade is a burst item. Assassins use the item and the fact that their role is all about burst damage, it isn't a label the item gets from them. BotRK and Wit's End are on-hit items and are garbage for Kog currently, even if they are for duelists. Move away from those builds as they are making him weak, he isn't weak by himself. As a Marksman, he scales the same way with normal items like any Marksman does and i see no reason why you're continuing to oppose the normal build, like he is specifically made to not scale with it.

It doesn't matter if a Rioter responded that Kog will get some QoA changes in the 6.20. As soon as he blatantly receives buffs to be compensated for reverts, if his build changes to more AD with a healthy mix of AS and crit, you'll be seeing him on pick or ban list.

FantasySniper2 votes

You really aren't understanding simple build strategy.

AD is for scaling. CDR is for abilities. Arm.Pen. is for physical damage. The Active buffs yourself for only a few seconds. These are all reasons why Youmuu's is better for burst champions, they focus on outputting as fast as possible since their damage falls off after a few seconds due to cooldowns.

AD is for scaling. AS is for autoattacks. Lifesteal is for autoattacks. On-Hit is for autoattacks. The Active heavily weakens a single target. These are all reasons why BotRK is better for duelists, they focus on dealing damage no matter what their cooldowns are and have a consistent output.

FantasySniper2 votes

You just, don't get it, do you? You don't.

I already explained all of this, you're just not paying attention.

AsphodelNext45 votes

Patch 6.22: Alright guys, we screwed up again. Clearly, old new Kog was better, so we're re-reverting Kog'maw to his old reworked kit, removing the mana cost on his W, and buffing his ult.

Kog at 62.7% winrate

Patch 6.25: Okay, we're still getting the hang of this... Let the re-nerfing begin anew.

. . .

Patch 7.84: We now have a switch built into Meddler's desk that toggles the Kog'maw rework on and off.

Ace Access 4 votes

Patch 2596474656.26: Kog's been an underwhelming pick since patch Patch 2596474656.14 hence we're buffing his base stats

RiotRiot Axes33 votes

Kog's on our radar. He'll get some quality of life stuff in 6.20, and we're looking at some buffs likely for 6.21.

Utility Veigar6 votes

What about an AD ratio on his W at least like the preseason Kog. It sucks that all his abilities scale AP and all do magic damage. Even his ult that scales both AD and AP does magic damage

ABSINTHEged6 votes

Kog is an attack speed scaler, not an AD scaler. Attack speed DOES increase his amount of % health on hit damage.

The only full AD, BF sword items you should be building on him are item 3031 or MAYBE item 3508 against a more tanky team for more W casts.

Try this build: item 3078 item 3006 item 3153 item 3085 item 3031 and then an optional defensive item such as: item 3102 item 3143 item 3026 or maybe item 3046 if you're really confident.

FallenSeruvim1 votes

That build is legit poop though. This issue is Kog only gets 50% crit, so RNG comes in huge, he builds zero pen, so nothing scales, and VERY low lifesteal coupled with 50% crit means literally zero sustain or survivability on top of him having no self peeling and zero survivability in his kit to begin with. Its bad, all around its bad. He can't reach 2.5 AS either, unless he has Lulu support

ABSINTHEged3 votes

RNG isn't truly random in this game. You will actually crit about half the time. Very little left to chance. ** League heavily weights its crit RNG based on previous outcomes.**

Crit is also generally less important the less AD you have because it's a ℅ increase of your total AD. This build has very little. The flat damage crit provides would be more important for burning squishies (which you can do reliably with TF procs.). Tanks are covered by W.

As I said before, you really can't stack AD on Kog'Maw, so while botrk is fairly shit since its nerfs earlier this season, it's still preferable to bloodthirster or heavier lifesteal options.

Lastly, Kog's damage vs high health champions (the ones likely to have resistances) is heavily split between physical and magical damage. There aren't split pen items. That's what his Q is for. 28℅ split resistance reduction. That's enough to burn a tank's resistances.

I think mostly Kog would massively benefit from a support with Zeke's.

LaughingStapler25 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JLqtikJB,comment-id=0035,timestamp=2016-10-01T21:17:55.509+0000)

Kog's on our radar. He'll get some quality of life stuff in 6.20, and we're looking at some buffs likely for 6.21.

Please don't treat AP Kog as a second-class citizen. AP Kog wasn't a gimmick, makes a lot of sense with his scalings and is what many Kog players found most fun. AP Kog was viable every season before the rework. He wasn't OP even pre-rework so not having his old ult. while having higher mana costs on W and R as well as a longer reset time is just too much.

While, I loved AP Kog as a poke mid and have over 1000 games on him, I understand there are some concerns about that style. I think he was a very healthy poke mid despite his range because of all his other weaknesses and the ramp up time but regardless of what direction is taken, he should be on par in strength. I've lost hope in his identity being maintained but I still want to play him mid. Although, in the future, I hope you guys only rework champions if you maintain the same playstyle. If it risks becoming a totally different style (AP Kog now is more burst than poke), you're better off creating a different champion than alienating the base. I guess exceptions can be made for unhealthy and really out of date designs.

My suggestion:

I can't give specific numbers but if the ult. were to scale linearly with missing HP instead of having hard breakpoints at <50% &<25%, it would make AP Kog more viable. He still wouldn't have anywhere near his old poke ability but it also wouldn't feel like a waste of mana using R on someone at 70% HP. Right now, it isn't even worth spending the mana if you're not aiming for someone below 50% HP. It's awkward and makes him feel really weak even when you don't expect to be.

Vallalan2 votes

he was not a healthy poke mid. there is nothing healthy about poking people from a screen away and fog of war.

sure he wasn't problematic or "OP" but his play pattern is extremely frustrating to play against. its super fun for ap kog players, but super un fun for the enemy team. you cant hard engage on an ap kog you can't even see raining artillery down on you.

Kog And Balls6 votes

Can't you just give him a reasonable passive for his role instead of fiddling with his numbers?

Harvey Rabbit2 votes

What's wrong with his passive? It is very useful and a clear part of his identity. His passive is one thing that should not be significantly changed under any circumstance.

Kog And Balls1 votes

Kogs passive is in direct opposition to his current identity. He is supposed to be a long range artillery type marksman who keeps opponents at a distance and has a focus on good positioning especially in big team fights. Kog passive rewards poor positioning, getting blown up by assassins and losing fights in bot lane. Players should not be rewarded when they fuck up on Kog oh you got slaughtered because you weren't positioned correctly thats ok have some damage.

Passives need to help players get an understanding of what you are supposed to do on their respective champions and/or fix small weakness' that the champion suffers from. Ezreal passive rewards you for hitting your abilities, Lucian for weaving spells in between autos, Irelia gets tenacity for diving the back line of enemy teams, and most mages have some form of mana regeneration.

If you need any more reason to change Kog passive just look at Zyra update. Riot listed various reasons for having her passive changed and the community generally agreed with them.

  • It wasn't as fun as it should be

  • It was the weakest part of her kit

  • The ability held Zyra back more than it helped her

  • It had a long windup and a slow missle speed

All of these gripes that Riot had with Zyra passive also apply to Kog passive.

Rebonack2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cucked Maw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JLqtikJB,comment-id=0035000200020000,timestamp=2016-10-02T14:50:09.374+0000)

Kogs passive is in direct opposition to his current identity. He is supposed to be a long range artillery type marksman who keeps opponents at a distance and has a focus on good positioning especially in big team fights. Kog passive rewards poor positioning, getting blown up by assassins and losing fights in bot lane. Players should not be rewarded when they fuck up on Kog oh you got slaughtered because you weren't positioned correctly thats ok have some damage.

Passives need to help players get an understanding of what you are supposed to do on their respective champions and/or fix small weakness' that the champion suffers from. Ezreal passive rewards you for hitting your abilities, Lucian for weaving spells in between autos, Irelia gets tenacity for diving the back line of enemy teams, and most mages have some form of mana regeneration.

If you need any more reason to change Kog passive just look at Zyra update. Riot listed various reasons for having her passive changed and the community generally agreed with them.

  • It wasn't as fun as it should be

  • It was the weakest part of her kit

  • The ability held Zyra back more than it helped her

  • It had a long windup and a slow missle speed

All of these gripes that Riot had with Zyra passive also apply to Kog passive.

Ostensibly, Kog's passive is supposed to allow him to trade kills when he's still weak.

Problem is, everyone has a plethora of mobility skills these days that renders Kog's passive largely irrelevant. I'm personally a fan of turning it into a flat, stacking resist shred that interacts with at least his Q in some interesting way. Devoting Kog's Q and Passive to crushing enemy resist would give him a pretty unique identity among Marksmen and a clear reason to be picked. You want an ADC who amps the damage of your whole team rather than just being a selfish damage dealer. That would allow him to support teams that would otherwise lack sufficient damage threat. Or help his team's Mages and Assassins deal with a hard front line.

I've been running MR shred Kog in various forms since Season 2 or so and it has consistently been my favorite way to play him. Back when Q shredded flat resist, Q/Wit's/Abyssal ate 70 MR and results in a deceptively resilient Kog. It was funny baiting people out and then having an AP assassin jump the shredded target and just pop them instantly.

Eedat10 votes

Give him his ult back. If you are going to "revert" him then actually do it

Randomonium5 votes

Still was a horrible call on the revert. If you're going to revert him at least go all the way and not leave him in a bastardized, unplayable state for a few patches.

Rebonack24 votes

The execute Ult sorta made sense with the absurd power of Kog's double attack speed W. Kog could quickly burn a target down and then use his Ult to finish them off when they use their mobility skill to get out of his W range.

But now?

Kog doesn't have the raw power anymore to really threaten anything. Not with all the base stat nerfs he ate as a result of his remake.

At this point he probable needs a full VGU. Riot has utterly ruined him.

KorZod2 votes

Or they just go back to 5.0 attackspeed, and say "W now deals 50% AD from 55%". Trims a bit of unnecessary power. Sure he was a strong ADC, but he wasn't overbearing in competitive (Ekko, Shen, Cass, Gnar, Jhin) and he wasn't batshit stupid. The major problem was that he could get wits end WAY before his opponent could get their first item. Raise the wits end cost by 300 or so, lower to 50%, and he's definitely in-line again. They took a super cool unique concept and ended up with a no-identity ADC with no truly optimal build. Also, most high ELO kogs were scripters, and they didn't like that

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

Or they just go back to 5.0 attackspeed, and say "W now deals 50% AD from 55%". Trims a bit of unnecessary power. Sure he was a strong ADC, but he wasn't overbearing in competitive (Ekko, Shen, Cass, Gnar, Jhin) and he wasn't batshit stupid. The major problem was that he could get wits end WAY before his opponent could get their first item. Raise the wits end cost by 300 or so, lower to 50%, and he's definitely in-line again. They took a super cool unique concept and ended up with a no-identity ADC with no truly optimal build. Also, most high ELO kogs were scripters, and they didn't like that

Riot could have made it work.

50% AD ratio on W. Remove the W base %HP damage and go back to scaling on total AD. That would hit the potency of a Wit's rush, too, since Kog's W damage would be lower. Remove the flat OnHit damage from W and give Kog attack speed on Q again. Kog's power early/mid was explosive due to the changes the Live team made. Changes which Kog's player base warned them would cause the exact problem they did.

statelesskiller16 votes

im gonna be honest. there is no excuse for his w NOT having a mana cost. it SHOULD. a champion SHOULD be punished for not managed his resources properly. he shouldn't have a free damage steroid.

LOOKING AT YOU Lucian

GrReaper968 votes

Perhaps make it so his W is like Lucian E and have descaling mana cost?

statelesskiller18 votes

i mean. i personally dislike lucian E not having a mana cost late game. i think its stupid considering its mobility AND a damage steroid because of his passive

ProfDrDeath10 votes

Low mana costs in general are also a reason for the popularity of the ArPen builds on ADCs. No need to go for Essence Reaver if you never run into mana issues in the first place. Riot really needs to have a hard look at the mana costs of these ArPen building ADCs (Jhin Lucian Quinn MissFortune ).

I honestly think that Lucian's dash should either have a flat 40-50 mana cost or a downscaling cost of 80-40.

Mighty Mortein5 votes

Idk about you, but I tend to run OOM moderately fast on Korean MF, mainly because you need to keep your W up in fights and Q'ing minions to help poke and siege. That's probably just me. Plus, using your E to slow for an Ult is something I tend to do.

Saianna8 votes

Imo you are missing important "detail" about Kog.

His "ADC liquid powah" is mostly compressed in his W. Either in "reverted state" or his kinda failure of a rework.

All in W.

Caitlyn has her range and she doesn't need AS steroids in her kit MF has her double up [Q] AND she has AS/MS steroid to cover what she lacks as ADC Jinx AS/range + dmg steroid on Q. etc etc

The thing is all of them have strong (or at least decent) AAs

Kog'Maw? Nope, not really. His AA is "weak" (not weaker than other ADCs, but if you take his range and squishiness, then overall it's simply weaker). He needs some help. And that's what manafree W did.

Second thing, Kogmaws Q E and R cost shitload of mana. If you want to keep his W with mana price, then comepnsate him by removing some mana costs on other spells.

Otherwise it'll be simply hatefull dick move.

statelesskiller3 votes

lower the mana costs of his other abilities? yeah that sounds pretty cool. if he was balanced around w not having a mana cost and now it does that seems like it would be fine.

WarlockLaw1 votes

Elise Nidalee Kayle(ult) Gangplank(barrels) Seem like worse offenders than somebody who has a scaling down mana cost.

statelesskiller1 votes

i hate elise and nidalee change forms as well. they are quite bullshit. abilities with as much power as they have costing utterly nothing? same thing for kayle ult

but im a gp main so im going to just say that gps barrels are fine because they do blatantly nothing by themselves. smash them with a AA and its barely any damage. hit it with a q thought? which DOES cost mana (quite abit early on) and they are worth something

and lucians E doesnt just scale down its mana cost. it utterly removes the mana cost . . . which is silly

WarlockLaw1 votes

I hate that Gangplank gets to have ranged waveclear with little cost while being a hyper carry with the shortest cd global ult, that imo has the biggest effect at level 1 of all the global ults.

statelesskiller1 votes

barels are worthless by themselves. his q is where all the wave clear is. added to the barrels. and then only if he gets triforce. AND THEN only if he gets it at a certain time.

the barrels themselves are a resource that gates gangplanks damage output

and his ult does like . . . no damage? unless you stand in it for a long period of time in which you DESERVE to take that damage. his ult does damage not from the ult itself but from thunderlords decree

KevinDelMarr1 votes

Barrels aren't worthless when you can sit on top of one for a minute at a time and deny melee engages. Sit on barrel, spam Q on enemy Champ.

statelesskiller1 votes

they are worthless as DAMAGE. is what i mean. a barrel by itself does not deal any damage. which is why it doesnt have mana cost. that and it is a resource of its own kind

SithesisLord4 votes

They´re transformation abilities.

Champs like Nidalee, Elise and Jayce don´t have 3 basic abilities and an ult like most champions. They have 4 basic abilities, one of which allows them to use different 3 basic abilities, that also don´t cost mana. It makes sense to not have them cost mana because their normal forms already have small mana pools and abilities that cost a lot.

Imagine an Elise who can´t turn into a spider after E-W-Q combo'ing someone in human form. Imagine a Nidalee who can´t follow up on that juicy max range spear throw? They´d become useless. Syndra's release level of winrate, with current Kalista levels of pick and ban rates.

Absolute troll picks on any extent and/or meaning of the term.

Same thing for Kayle's ult. Even with 40% CDR she can´t afford to spam her heal and slow, because they cost a lot and her late game mana pool is still small. If Kayle ever got a cost back on her ult, it´d be a tiny cost, like 25 to 50, or 100 but then her other mana costs would have to be reduced by a lot.

Some abilities don´t cost mana because otherwise, the champions wouldn´t be viable. Putting mana costs on abilities who have been doing better and in a balanced state without mana costs would be like giving resourceless champions a resource. Imagine how obnoxious Riven would´ve been if that Edge resource update went live? Not a pretty sight to see.

WarlockLaw3 votes

Champs like Nidalee, Elise and Jayce don´t have 3 basic abilities and an ult like most champions. They have 4 basic abilities, one of which allows them to use different 3 basic abilities, that also don´t cost mana. It makes sense to not have them cost mana because their normal forms already have small mana pools and abilities that cost a lot.

Personally I think the transformation costing 0 mana is fine and should remain, otherwise those champions get shoehorned into tear every game. As for them having their melee basic abilities cost no mana, I'm okay either way so long as all 3 have the same pattern. However Jayce is an exception as his melee form abilities still have mana costs while Elise and Nidalee don't.

Imagine an Elise who can´t turn into a spider after E-W-Q combo'ing someone in human form. Imagine a Nidalee who can´t follow up on that juicy max range spear throw? They´d become useless. Syndra's release level of winrate, with current Kalista levels of pick and ban rates.

Honestly, I hate every thing about Nidalee. I see no downside here. I think at the very least Nidalee needs to have low damage out put early game or late game, not strong in both. Elise I could care less about either way, saw way too much of her for 2 seasons and could never manage to learn her myself.

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