The current and upcoming state of the Toplane/of Bruisers & Fighters

ł Søra ł··10 votes·1,060 views

So here is the thing.

Riot removed stuff like Brutalizer and changed LW because items like that didn't allow a Tank meta. When i asked Phreak about Brutalizer and why they removed it, he said "It did too much and didn't allow Tanks against bruisers because they would just be useless"

Now, that we have the Tank meta for so long, why can't we have items like those. Yes Armor pen has been replaced with Lethality and there are only few Armor pen items left but this is what helped against tanks. We also don't need that much changes to AD items but rather changes to the base stats from Tanks.

On the PBE, there is an Ornn nerf to his W with less damage and increased CD but does that help? No, i don't think it will because his base stats are still insane and the base resistances for Bruisers/Fighters in the toplane aren't high enough to withstand this and somehow do anything against tanks. The Runes they have provide them with everything they need to become the best picks possible in the lane without any kind of counterplay no matter if the enemy is a ranged Quinn/Vayne/Lucian/Gnar/Jayce.

Riot already mentioned that they want to adjust some items and buff them and some champions or even nerf some etc. I think, everything was fine until they introduced us a System where it isn't really worth picking a Bruiser but rather a Tank champion to win games. I haven't seen any Toplane matchups where there are 2 Fighters/Bruisers for example Riven vs Fiora, Camille vs Fiora etc. there is always atleast 1 tank in the team and thats the toplane.

I know i don't have any impact on how Riot will do stuff in the 7.24b patch but i would rather see Predator/Dark Harvest being removed from the tree and add something like Fervor into it.

Also, an early purchase on LW should be a good choice on a Fighter/Bruiser if we would still have the old Buildpatch for it (Pickaxe into LW).

Speaking of Buildpaths, i think BC would need its old Buildpath back with Warhammer + Phage = Black Cleaver. It gave more AD and helped Fighters to transition into the item more. You could get a Warhammer for 750G if you started with a Longsword and it would give you +25AD where phage only gives you +15AD and some HP but this is the only damage resource you get until you finished BC which means, you sit on your base AD + 15Ad from phage until your BC ins finished where the Tank on the enemy team would just have to rush Tabi and Bramble vest. These 2 items cost 2100 Gold in total where BC costs 3000 Gold.

This is my opinion on the current Toplane "Meta" Would like to hear your opinion on this.

P.s. dont buff sunfire again please :( next up is gauntlet and we got what we had back in 2016..

36 Comments

redniwediS6 votes

Can we stick to the official classes please? Bruiser is pretty much a synonym for Fighter, and cover all fighters of both subclasses and, depending on build, a few assassins. It's too broad of a term to really use when talking about balance changes, as each of these subclasses has different needs.

oOBestEveNAOo3 votes

{quoted}

Can we stick to the official classes please? Bruiser is pretty much a synonym for Fighter, and cover all fighters of both subclasses and, depending on build, a few assassins.

Riots system of classification is dumb though...

Tanks get big and beefy and are the primary initiators and secondary peelers.

Bruisers should be able to duel anything 1v1 and win, are the secondary initiators with a focus on eliminating a priority target.

Assassins should be able to instagib anything that isn't a tank if that champion makes a mistake.

Mages should provide zone control and burst damage on priority targets with good waveclear.

ADCs should be glass cannons that kill tanks and towers quickly provided they are well protected.

Supports should be secondary initiators and primary peelers.

Whatever Riot says, if it ain't this, then it ain't right.

redniwediS2 votes

Click the link, those are not all classes.

oOBestEveNAOo2 votes

{quoted}

Click the link, those are not classes.

I'm aware Riot has some stupid classification system now.

It's still stupid no matter if I look at it or not.

What I posted is what the classes should be.

redniwediS4 votes

Your list groups champions together that have nothing to do with one another. It's more difficult with your idea to talk about a group of similar champions than it is with Riot's system, because with Riot all champions are already grouped by similarities and needs.

You could say "bruisers like Jax" to make sure no one thinks of Garen or other Juggernauts, or you could just use the new system. It's not stupid, it was required.

oOBestEveNAOo1 votes

{quoted}

Your list groups champions together that have nothing to do with one another. It's more difficult with your idea to talk about a group of similar champions than it is with Riot's system, because with Riot all champions are already grouped by similarities and needs.

You could say "bruisers like Jax" to make sure no one thinks of Garen or other Juggernauts, or you could just use the new system. It's not stupid, it was required.

Garen isn't a bruiser... hes a tank.

He has ZERO abilities in his kit that allow him to jump a priority target. None. He's not a good tank either as his initiation is terrible. Its why he's largely competitively inviable. Same for darius.

You're the one being confused because Riot made you confused.

If the champion's kit encourages one of the jobs/roles I listed then that champion is that classification.

redniwediS9 votes

Garen is not and has never been a tank. Since his release he has been a fighter with the goal of dealing damage. He has one form of CC in his entire kit and it's only a silence.

High defense does not make someone a tank. He cannot peel, he cannot control enemies, he cannot come close to initiating, all he can do is kill. I'm not confused here, you are.

oOBestEveNAOo1 votes

{quoted}

Garen is not and has never been a tank. Since his release he has been a fighter with the goal of dealing damage. He has one form of CC in his entire kit and it's only a silence.

High defense does not make someone a tank. He cannot peel, he cannot control enemies, he cannot come close to initiating, all he can do is kill. I'm not confused here, you are.

YOU can't peel or zone or initiate with him maybe.

Some of us can bud.

It's why we're diamond. Positioning is important even for tanks.

And on top of this you picked the absolute worst possible champion to discuss as he literally fits into NO role except the one Riot made up because he didn't have a real one.

Hell, he can't even deal damage reliably... sheez. Fails under your own classification.

redniwediS6 votes

Don't make a fool of yourself. If you really think Garen is a tank head over to the Garen subreddit and read what the diamond Garen one tricks say about him.

Get with the times buddy, bruiser is outdated.

oOBestEveNAOo1 votes

{quoted}

Get with the times buddy, bruiser is outdated.

No.

Riot's new classification is overcomplexity of an extreme magnitude. And it's confusing to lower level players.

Only been a top 1% player for 5 seasons, and I play Garen some. What could I possibly even know? Probably less than some D5 Garen main scrub, yep yep. Totes.

redniwediS4 votes

Keep talking mate, it's not even remotely complex if you give it any amount of effort. And do check out that subreddit, or at least do it before you make assumptions about who is over there.

oOBestEveNAOo1 votes

{quoted}

Keep talking mate, it's not even remotely complex if you give it any amount of effort. And do check out that subreddit, or at least do it before you make assumptions about who is over there.

Sigh.

Low level players never learn but always want to complain about why they can't do a thing.

Literally can't understand that a champion's kit defines it's role and that the roles used in official terms are confusing and misleading because they are crafted purely around what Riot would like to THINK of a champion rather than what it can actually do.

Garen is a fighter... when he can't fight anything, can't dictate a fight with his kit, and his damage output is extremely subpar unless he builds damage in which case he just dies before being able to fight anything.

Yeah. That's TOTES a fighter. Totes.

redniwediS5 votes

The official terms are neither confusing nor misleading, you just haven't given any effort to learning them.

If you refuse to learn that's your own business. Stay classy mate.

DragonShea3 votes

{quoted}

Garen is not and has never been a tank. Since his release he has been a fighter with the goal of dealing damage. He has one form of CC in his entire kit and it's only a silence.

High defense does not make someone a tank. He cannot peel, he cannot control enemies, he cannot come close to initiating, all he can do is kill. I'm not confused here, you are.

Well said. Juggs have raw defensive that rival or even surpass at times, tanks durability, but they can't peel or engage as well. Tanks and Juggs need durability for different reason as you know. Tanks to disrupt and protect their allies, juggs to bash as many skulls as they can.

DragonShea3 votes

{quoted}

Garen isn't a bruiser... hes a tank.

He has ZERO abilities in his kit that allow him to jump a priority target. None. He's not a good tank either as his initiation is terrible. Its why he's largely competitively inviable. Same for darius.

You're the one being confused because Riot made you confused.

If the champion's kit encourages one of the jobs/roles I listed then that champion is that classification.

Buddy, Please check yourself before your rekt yourself. Garen is a jugg because he has no mobility apart from his Q which is subpar and because he is a danger to be nearby hens the reason he to be kited to keep him at bay.

He is meant to have subpar initiation because it's not his job to do that.

He isn't meant to be a tank because he can't engage or peel.

He is a jugg because his damage is on par with ADC's but he, like other juggs trade range for durability.

Critmaster Garen7 votes

{quoted}

Riots system of classification is dumb though...

Tanks get big and beefy and are the primary initiators and secondary peelers.

Bruisers should be able to duel anything 1v1 and win, are the secondary initiators with a focus on eliminating a priority target.

Assassins should be able to instagib anything that isn't a tank if that champion makes a mistake.

Mages should provide zone control and burst damage on priority targets with good waveclear.

ADCs should be glass cannons that kill tanks and towers quickly provided they are well protected.

Supports should be secondary initiators and primary peelers.

Whatever Riot says, if it ain't this, then it ain't right.

the reason why riot is using sub classes is because the fighter pool is way too large and diverse to just group them all in together.

juggernaut, diver and skirmishers are groups with very different strengths and weaknesses.

the only thing i dont really agree on is that theyre grouping skirmishers with assassins. they should just be a third category of fighter, because they have more in common with them as sustained damage carries over assassins who are burst oriented.

oOBestEveNAOo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IyKGytE4,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2017-12-06T07:57:06.310+0000)

the reason why riot is using sub classes is because the fighter pool is way too large to group them all in together.

juggernaut, diver and skirmishers are groups with very different strengths and weaknesses.

the only thing i dont really agree on is that theyre grouping skirmishers with assassins. they should just be a third category of fighter, because they have more in common with them as sustained damage carries over assassins who are burst oriented.

Juggs are tanks.

Diver's are bruisers.

Skirmishers are mostly assassins and an occasional bruiser.

Forget everything Riot has put out on the subject and just look at the job/roles I provided. That's what defines a champion as a particular class.

Never did care for how confusing they made that shit...

It's simple. If it does "X" thing in game because of it's kit then it's "Y" class.

Critmaster Garen6 votes

{quoted}

Juggs are tanks.

Diver's are bruisers.

Skirmishers are mostly assassins and an occasional bruiser.

Forget everything Riot has put out on the subject and just look at the job/roles I provided. That's what defines a champion as a particular class.

Never did care for how confusing they made that shit...

It's simple. If it does "X" thing in game because of it's kit then it's "Y" class.

juggs and tanks have entirely different functions.

tanks are supportive initiators and peelers.

juggs are melee carries.

they have fundamentally different playstiles. the only thing they have in common is that they like to build a lot of health and resistances.

but even there, juggs arent building the same items as tanks. where tanks want full defense into item 3193 its a horrible item for juggernauts who rather want item 3071 item 3748 item 3053 item 3078 item 3022 mixed into their health/resistance items.

oOBestEveNAOo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IyKGytE4,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-12-06T08:32:32.648+0000)

juggs are melee carries.

These don't exist.

That is a figment of people's imagination.

It's why jugs aren't viable in competitive play. They are tanks that can't perform tank roles, assassin roles, bruiser roles (lack of in kit mobility) or support roles (at least very effectively on this last one).

They can't even split push effectively. If they WERE a melee carry they could at LEAST do this part effectively. They can't. The classification system Riot has is dumb as hell. Just saying.

MuffledGarbage1 votes

Were you even around for Season 3 worlds?

there were 2-3 juggernauts per team because of how good they were.

They were melee and the sole reason team's won was because they were CARRIED by a MELEE champion.

Thereby making Juggernauts MELEE CARRIES.

I rest my case.

oOBestEveNAOo1 votes

{quoted}

Were you even around for Season 3 worlds?

there were 2-3 juggernauts per team because of how good they were.

They were melee and the sole reason team's won was because they were CARRIED by a MELEE champion.

Thereby making Juggernauts MELEE CARRIES.

I rest my case.

...

.....

.......

The class didn't exist until the infamous Juggers patch of season 5 in August of that year...

Sigh.

This board is literally impossible to have any kind of discussion on...

Literally impossible. Because of shit like this response.

MuffledGarbage1 votes

you just skipped an entire season...

season 3 to season 5? [sg-lux-2]

oOBestEveNAOo1 votes

{quoted}

you just skipped an entire season...

season 3 to season 5? [sg-lux-2]

The classification of "juggernaut" didn't exist in season 3.

Furthermore, that season of worlds was dominated by assassin picks like kha and rengar. It is literally impossible for you to be more wrong.

MuffledGarbage1 votes

{quoted}

The class didn't exist until the infamous Juggers patch of season 5 in August of that year...

So you lied earlier about Juggernauts not existing until season 5...

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

You are thoroughly confusing me and all I want to do is understand what you are even saying , lmao

Iota Theta1 votes

{quoted}

Can we stick to the official classes please? Bruiser is pretty much a synonym for Fighter, and cover all fighters of both subclasses and, depending on build, a few assassins. It's too broad of a term to really use when talking about balance changes, as each of these subclasses has different needs.

Yes please.

It gets frustrating trying to figure out what people mean with all the fighters having different needs.

Some want on-hits and AD Skirmishers like Jax want similar or attack speed for a melee ADC style like Yasuo. Juggernauts want health and AD. Most juggernauts don’t really need attack speed or on-hits like Divers and Skirmishers might.

Sorry, couldn’t help but expand a little.

redniwediS1 votes

That's completely fine, I'm just happy to see I'm not the only one who finds this bothersome.

Critmaster Garen5 votes

[{quoted}](name=ł Søra ł,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IyKGytE4,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-12-06T07:32:30.213+0000)

Speaking of Buildpaths, i think BC would need its old Buildpath back with Warhammer + Phage = Black Cleaver.

no please. this makes the item more attractive for squishier marksmen, assassins, and skirmishers than for brusiers.

more tanky divers and juggernauts value the 100 extra health either equally or more than the 10 extra ad.

as for sources of ad, grasp has a batshit crazy buff on the pbe that probably wont stay the same until the patch hits. it currently grants a stacking 1% of your max health in ad or 1.6% max health in ap for every grasp proc you apply in a fight until youre out of combat.

and by stacking, i mean the cap is currently at 99 stacks.

https://i.imgur.com/PHD0nd5.png

Red Wreckage2 votes

edit: im stupid

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Wreckage,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IyKGytE4,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-12-06T09:21:13.661+0000)

so a single stack with that build will give 400+ AD???

W T F

40

DragonShea1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IyKGytE4,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-06T07:47:54.065+0000)

no please. this makes the item more attractive for squishier marksmen, assassins, and skirmishers than for brusiers.

more tanky divers and juggernauts value the 100 extra health either equally or more than the 10 extra ad.

as for sources of ad, grasp has a batshit crazy buff on the pbe that probably wont stay the same until the patch hits. it currently grants a stacking 1% of your max health in ad or 1.6% max health in ap for every grasp proc you apply in a fight until youre out of combat.

and by stacking, i mean the cap is currently at 99 stacks.

https://i.imgur.com/PHD0nd5.png

You know. I think it would be better if it gave you 0.5% of your total HP every 8 times you proc Grasp up to 1.5% and that the bonus is double for grasp attacks and ONLY grasp attacks. The HP scaling wasn't that bad tbh.

Blåbæret3 votes

BC needs to be melee only. Why the heck should a bruiser item get nerfed because of ADCs abusing it?

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

BC needs to be melee only. Why the heck should a bruiser item get nerfed because of ADCs abusing it?

most juggs prefer the health on the item over ad. i wouldnt say it was nerfed.

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

BC needs to be melee only. Why the heck should a bruiser item get nerfed because of ADCs abusing it?

Yeah it's time it becomes melee only.

FatedSaviour4 votes

item 3070 Urgot item 3070

Blue Moon Wolf1 votes

Honestly I'd like it more if they did something with item 3074 since item 3812 has become the better option in most cases anymore and have them add some stuff to actually deal with ranged enemies who just poke you to death and kite you when you try to engage.

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