why is it ok to gut talon ?

infernalbunies·Nov 29, 2014·1 votes·2,318 views

but god forbid zed is touched

68 Comments

AtheosisXNov 29, 20143 votes

Talon is fine. Zed could maybe use some nerfs. Maybe.

foristNov 29, 20142 votes

The player-base considers talon fine, the 5% of the player-base that actually play talon disagree.

AtheosisXNov 29, 20146 votes

You mean the ones that miss their freelo champ? Yeah poor them.

foristNov 29, 20142 votes

Comments like these lose you all of your credibility. Please don't ever post on a Talon thread again, the intelligence level on these boards is already low enough without your presence.

AtheosisXNov 29, 20144 votes

Dude, your favorite champion is fine. You can't delete people with zero risk anymore. Get over it.

foristNov 30, 20141 votes

Holy shit... Talon could delete people with no risks, why the hell am I not challenger yet?

Hey guys, this guy has found a champ that can get guaranteed kills without any risks whatsoever, yay! I guess that must be why only 5% of the player base plays him, because he is super secret op, and not hindered by blatantly obvious weaknesses such as high cd's, high mana costs, lower burst damage than other assassins, no innate sustain/waveclear, an extremely shitty laning phase, and only one gap closer. Those balance testers at riot must be on to something, i mean he was like 5-20 in worlds this year, so I guess even the best players in the world haven't realized how op this champ was, especially with all the recent buffs he's been getting in the past 2 years, huh?

infernalbuniesNov 30, 20142 votes

Holy shit... Talon could delete people with no risks, why the hell am I not challenger yet?

Hey guys, this guy has found a champ that can get guaranteed kills without any risks whatsoever, yay! I guess that must be why only 5% of the player base plays him, because he is super secret op, and not hindered by blatantly obvious weaknesses such as high cd's, high mana costs, lower burst damage than other assassins, no innate sustain/waveclear, an extremely shitty laning phase, and only one gap closer. Those balance testers at riot must be on to something, i mean he was like 5-20 in worlds this year, so I guess even the best players in the world haven't realized how op this champ was, especially with all the recent buffs he's been getting in the past 2 years, huh?

meanwhile zed breezes through lanning phase with perfect cs, and can delete someone in the middle of a team and get out alive like nothing happend

Meep ManDec 1, 20141 votes

Learn 2 Peel

infernalbuniesDec 1, 20142 votes

Learn 2 Peel

i love it when bronze kids mindlessly repeat things they hear diamond players say without understanding what any of it means, exactly the same as parrots

SexyTaylorSwiftDec 1, 20142 votes

OP.gg has Talon rated 67/122 champs for pick rate, Lolking had him rated about 61/122. Please don't use that as an argument since it is not a very good one. Also, can I please see where you got your worlds statistics at this year?

foristDec 1, 20141 votes

The phrase: like 5-20 means that I didn't look up the statistic hence the "like" part. The reason i said his player base is like 5% of the actual player base is because I read it on a different thread and didn't question it because it seems very believable. Give me a couple of secs to figure out talon's actual world stats and I'll list em if you really gotta know.

SexyTaylorSwiftDec 1, 20141 votes

Point being: "like 5% of the player base" applies to so many fucking champions. Like, about half of them. That is why I think that statement doesn't hold much weight. And yes, I would like to know his stats for comparison sake. My hunch is that his worlds stats would very much reiterate the pick rate argument.

foristDec 1, 20141 votes

ok, actual world stats are 3 for 7 so like 3 - 4. So hardly a big influence on worlds especially compared to zed's 19 picks.

The point I was trying to make by mentioning that I was in the 5% that actually play talon is that people are always trying to get champions they don't understand or play banned without even considering how it actually feels to play that champion. Talon was not some kind of win machine champion who only a few players knew was op, he was a champ that took a huge amount of positional skill and therefore only a few players enjoyed playing him.

SexyTaylorSwiftDec 1, 20141 votes

Ok, so not only he is about 50% of the pack pick rate, he is in the low to mid 20s for win rate according to lolking and OP.gg. I am failing to see how this champ is currently in an nonviable state.

Also, "i mean he was like 5-20 in worlds this year, so I guess even the best players in the world haven't realized how op this champ was" is what you said. According to your logic there, Fizz, Ahri, Nami, Trist, and Syndra, to name a few, are all weaker because pros didn't win with them.

I am sorry, but both your pick rate and win rate arguments fall short or being reasonable arguments. You are arguing that a champ isn't picked because he is now nonviable and only a few players enjoyed him because of the amount of skill he took, even though that champ is about in the middle of pick rate. You are also arguing that he has a low win rate because he is weak, yet his win rate in top 25%.

Would you agree that Fiddles needs heavy buffs? I mean, he was only picked 1 time at worlds. That is because the pros know how weak he really is.

foristDec 1, 20141 votes

Omg, sarcasm is a dead language nowadays. That whole post was sarcastic. jeesus. But, anyways the reason his winrate hasn't declined recently is because the few people that are playing him are the people who are good with him and therefore have very good positioning and are probably more often than not outplaying their opponents.

You missed the whole point of the argument on this thread, the point is that talon pre-nerf was in no way op, that's exactly why I am referencing all of these worlds stats where he had his silence. Gdammit man you saw the no risk comment this one was responding too, right?

Also, we arent asking for heavy buffs, just a little compensation to some heavy nerfs!!!

SexyTaylorSwiftDec 1, 20141 votes

If the whole past was sarcastic, then what point were you actually trying to make lol? It can't be what you just said now, about the few people that play him because he played more than about half the champion pool. Obviously the good players of Talon don't see a problem, or he wouldn't be in the top 25% win rates. Like, do you want him buffed so that he has the highest win rate of all champs or something? He seems to be in a perfectly fine place at the moment. Buffing will only make him too strong.

foristDec 1, 20141 votes

No, I don't want to play a broken champion.... I want to play a unique champion, with specific match-ups that either favor him or not. Talon is not in a good place atm, his match-ups are absolute shit now. He literally counters 2, maybe 3 champions out of the entire 121 champion roster. Also, he no longer fills his niche as an anti-mage assassin anymore . Literally, every aspect of his kit has a better counterpart on a different champion. No one wants to play a champion who doesn't fill a role in this game, and talon has lost his. Why would i pick talon when I could have an easier/more dominant game with zed?

Anyways, the reason the good players aren't having a problem is because they know the champion and know which match-ups he can at the very least function in. I know I've said it somewhere before, but the greatest talon players are the ones who knew how to position well, how to punish mistakes made by the enemy instead of always making plays, and most importantly they knew the right times to go all in, because that's what talon has always done..... goes balls deep. The reason his win rate is still good is because the players that knew how to play him already have a great sense of positioning and timing, therefore these players are much more likely to just straight-up outplay their lane opponent. (which has gotten significantly harder after the nerf)

Also, I'm a little confused in what you mean by half the champion pool, he is currently sitting at 6.2% in popularity.

CozarkianDec 1, 20141 votes

http://lol.esportspedia.com/wiki/2014_Season_World_Championship/Statistics/Champion_Stats

Talon: 0 bans, 7 picks (9% of games), went 3-4 (42% win rate) with 20/37/35 KDA. Of course, there were only 61 champions banned/picked, so just making the list is an accomplishment.

SexyTaylorSwiftDec 1, 20141 votes

Thank you for finding this!

RedTrinketGoneHaDec 27, 20141 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am theboxghost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ixc2A88c,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2014-11-29T07:23:13.745+0000)

The player-base considers talon fine, the 5% of the player-base that actually play talon disagree.

Talon had the highest consistent winrate in challegener all of season 3 and 4, that says something, he also already had a high winrate. He's fine stop complaining.

foristDec 28, 20141 votes

Thank you for your wonderful insight, kat reset king. I don't consider your opinion biased at all.

BeatzBoyFTWNov 29, 20142 votes

Cause Zed has no silence, so there's at least some counterplay.

infernalbuniesNov 29, 20142 votes

Cause Zed has no silence, so there's at least some counterplay.

how much do you have to drink to think there is actual counter play to zed

JustMyBassCannonDec 1, 20142 votes

Ever heard of a thing called Zhonya's Hourglass for your squishy mages? How about "sticking to your CC tank" for your squishy carries?

Because, y'know, outplaying his shit is a lot eaiser than outplaying a silence that lasts long enough to throw an entire burst rotation that deals as much damage as Zed's

But, fuck, what does a Talon main who did the math know, right?

infernalbuniesDec 1, 20141 votes

Ever heard of a thing called Zhonya's Hourglass for your squishy mages? How about "sticking to your CC tank" for your squishy carries?

Because, y'know, outplaying his shit is a lot eaiser than outplaying a silence that lasts long enough to throw an entire burst rotation that deals as much damage as Zed's

But, fuck, what does a Talon main who did the math know, right?

first off, Bass we both know you are a tundle main second, as soon as talon hits E he gets red trinkets + cc poped on him = dead ( before nerfs, now if he actualy goes in on a mage without being massively ahead the mage will simply pop him before he can do anything )

JustMyBassCannonDec 1, 20141 votes

Yes, that's what happens now

After the removal of his toxic Silence, around which his kit was based.

So, maybe, the problem isn't the loss of his Silence, but the design of his kit.

foristDec 1, 20141 votes

His kit was fine, he was considered a troll pick for 2 years straight without receiving a single buff, but now all of the sudden his kit is super toxic and op. Gotta love this game's player-base screaming nerf every-time they get outplayed and beaten by a champion they haven't played as.

But seriously, you might wanna try playing a champ before you give insight on how balanced his kit is. Just a thought.

KzooCrasherDec 1, 20142 votes

When was he a troll pick? He is a very strong counter pick. Just like he always was. Enemy team grabs a squishy mid with only skill shot cc or no cc at all? Bam lock that bad boy in. He wasn't "OP" but he had a part of his kit that is completely toxic on assassins and riot simply followed the precedent they made with these types of abilities on assassins and got rid of it. Also other assassins have great escapes after killing someone fizz/akali/kat/lb and some assasins don't syndra/Diana/talon to name a few.

foristDec 1, 20142 votes

Ok, just speaking from my experience in maining talon for the past two seasons, but whatever I'm sure you know better. Guess it could be due to the fact that I'm low gold elo, and people are a little less knowledgeable at that level.

Please for the love of god don't suggest that syndra and talon are on the same level. The last thing we need in this game is to give syndra some mobility. Also she's not an assassin she's a mage. >:o

Diana on the other hand has the potentional for basically limitless dashing depending on her mana and the cool down on her q. Also, her lower mobility is balanced by the fact that she is probably the tankyest assassin in the game. Don't get me wrong, I think definitely think diana could use some buffs, but I don't think she needs them as bad as talon atm.

Talon doesn't have the range or tankiness to justify his lack of mobility right now, that's what the silence in his kit was for. And no, it was not toxic, just a pub-stomper for rigid/inexperienced players.

KzooCrasherDec 1, 20142 votes

For starters I didn't realize Link/Hai/Scarra are inexperienced/ rigid players. Pro players getting wtf stomped is what showed riot how toxic a silence is on an assassin with very high burst. Lb got the same "gutted" as talon. The idea that a champion can literally use a gap closer and then delete someone before they are able to use an ability is toxic.....

Syndra is definitely an assassin with a DFG she has other play styles but if you don't think she can be used very effectively as an assassin then hit up the old YouTube.

Diana does have some nice trade offs but she loses her ability to assassinate most people of she saves her ult to escape with and yes she is tank for an assassin but talon has a stealth I could go all day if you want to compare and contrast kits. If you look at talons kit he's still a strong champion post "gut"

foristDec 1, 20141 votes

Ugh, ok you misinterpreted that last sentence. I meant that talon pub stomps rigid/inexperienced players, not that talon was used by those types of players. Unless you are saying those players got stomped by others using talon, which would be a straight-up lie, maybe you were watching some different lcs/worlds games than everyone else, but in most of the games with both hai and talon, hai was the one in fact playing talon.

Once again, I'll reiterate old stataistics, Talon was picked in 7 games at worlds he won 3, 2 of them being pawn's who is arguably the best talon player and mid-laner in the world atm. For comparison: zed was picked 19 times, and won 9 times. Talon was not performing well at worlds, enough said.

Yes, I agree a champ that can use a gap closer and silence to delete someone b4 they can react is toxic, but talon is just not able to do that unless he has a huge item lead, is very fed, and the other player is alone and therefore has no peel. Name an assassin who isn't able to get a guaranteed kill under these conditions, simply put there are none.

Syndra is not an assassin, she is a burst mage, if tons of really fast damage is what made a champ an assassin, then brand, annie, and xerath would all count as well. Assassins are characterized by their high damage, and high mobility. These champs have the damage part but not the mobility part.

Diana can build zohyas effectively which simply outclasses short bursts of stealth and move=speed. If you played talon into diana even before the cut throat nerfs you'd be wrecked. In fact diana doesn't have that many bad matchups in my experience.

Ditto, I could listen to you give examples all day, but I would be able to explain every time why talon's kit is extremely weak atm. In fact I welcome the challenge of anyone giving me a unique aspect that playing talon offers in this current meta when compared to another assassin champion.

Finally, all I ask is that you all take the time to play the champion before debating his kits pro's and con's. I hate people going simply by numbers and statistics without the real experience or credibility to back themselves up. End of my rant...... for now.....

KzooCrasherDec 1, 20142 votes

I never said pro players got stomped by Talon..... just read my post it was LB that showed silenced on assassins are toxic and they are.....

My Diana point isn't that talon beats Diana its that they are both assassins without escapes..... its was to show you not all assassins have escapes.

I won't argue semantics on Syndra she is and can be used as an assassin same way ahri doesn't have to be but can be built as an assassin.

I have played talon I don't just talk about it by looking only at numbers. But numbers are the most effective way to show he is in a good place.

foristDec 1, 20141 votes

Comparing leblanc's 2-4 second silence to Talon's 1 second silence is hardly fair.

I agree that both diana and talon are assassins that lack escapes, but my point was that diana has the proper tankiness and itemization paths (zohyas) for extended fights, which is something talon inherently lacks. Also, have to add that diana's playstyle is much more bruiser-ish than any of the other assassins in this game.

I'll go ahead and quote lol's wiki on assassins:

"An assassin is an agile champion that specializes in killing or disabling high value targets. Focused on infiltration, deception, and mobility, assassins are opportunistic hunters who find favorable moments within a fight before** jumping into the fray**. Regardless of the size of the enemy team, assassins specialize in positioning and artful killing. They strike when the time is right – no sooner, no later."

This is why syndra is not an assassin not matter what style you play her. She fits none of the criteria i bolded for you, ahri actually is listed as an assassin, syndra is listed as a mage/support. But, this is really just not important to the discussion. The main point is that there basically no other assassins with the same amount of low mobility that talon and diana have. Except maybe pantheon and fiora, but even then... they are only listed as secondary assassins whereas talon is a primary assassin role wise..

I feel the need for clarification, if you had the stats for any ranked games with talon, I would believe you had enough experience playing talon, but you just don't.. ok? We all know that numbers and champ stats are no substitute for real experience. For example miss fortune has extremely high ap ratios on her ult, does that mean its viable to build her as an apc .... hell no!

Ok, final note: I just discovered that diana is not even listed as an assassin, but is a fighter/mage. This actually completely makes sense to me so, now i"m even more opposed to your comparisons between diana and talon.

KzooCrasherDec 1, 20142 votes

You do realize there are other game modes than ranked.... the idea that if I don't play him in ranked my opinion doesn't matter is pretty dumb.

Did you even read that "definition" of assassin... it is prose a lot more than anything else. According to that "definition tryndamere is an assassin. He is agile waits for the right moment to come into a fight.... assassins defining characteristic is their ability to assassinate a target ie zero them in a very very small amount of time. Syndra will kill most people with a dfg faster than a Zed or Akali will.

Obviously riot disagrees with you about comparing LB to Talon because they are taking out every assassin with a silence because being able to kill someone with 0 counter play is toxic.

KzooCrasherDec 1, 20142 votes

So yah, in summary, I'm not surprised that riot can't tell the difference between a 4 second silence and a 1 second one.

That isn't it at all.... they just don't care whether its extremely toxic or just regular old toxic.... they don't want toxic champs with no counter play.

I never said your opinion doesn't matter, I'm just saying I don't trust your level of experience that's all, and yes it does matter which modes you play champions in. Ranked matches are much more competitive and therefore are more indicative of a champion's current potential, because people take ranked matches much more seriously.

When i play normals most of the time the person on the other team in mid is trying to kill me same as ranked... the match ups don't change between normals and ranked and the statistics that talon is still in the upper half of league champions isn't debatable.... I'm sorry your champ got "gutted" to the point of playability > ~half of all champs that sucks :/

KzooCrasherDec 1, 20142 votes

The law of mains as I know it essentially goes champions with lower pick rates but higher win rates have their numbers essentially inflated because they are played mostly by mains of those champions who play them so well they win more than your average player would. Just because a niche group play a champion well doesn't mean he is over powered? I hate to break it to you but he isn't played by mains only. He gets picked wayyyy to much for a niche group of mains to be playing him.

Did you really say if I agreed with you then you'd respect my opinion.... what kind of warped logic is that.

I never said cc is toxic but silences on champions with the burst talon has is.

For the record my main Lucian was stupid op freelo so when he got needed I didn't get so salty you could rub me on a steak, instead I learned how to play him when he was more even with others in the position and I still do great with him. I suggest you do the same.

KzooCrasherDec 2, 20142 votes

and obviously you are in the minority. That is why your thread got downvoted so hard. The community is against toxic champs that have no counter play

KzooCrasherDec 2, 20142 votes

There are tons we have thrown statistics out there that he still has a good pick rate and good win rate. Ok you ignored that one how about the fact that his kit is largely untouched especially his insane damage. OK you ignored that how about showing that other assassins have safety problems too and can't just jump in and out of fights intagibbing people. Ok you ignored that too. The arguements are there. The evidence is overwhelming but you want freelo and your mad..... I get you jumped on the talon wagon early got tons of freelo but man its over you gotta try to climb like the rest of us now.

infernalbuniesDec 1, 20141 votes

When was he a troll pick? He is a very strong counter pick. Just like he always was. Enemy team grabs a squishy mid with only skill shot cc or no cc at all? Bam lock that bad boy in. He wasn't "OP" but he had a part of his kit that is completely toxic on assassins and riot simply followed the precedent they made with these types of abilities on assassins and got rid of it. Also other assassins have great escapes after killing someone fizz/akali/kat/lb and some assasins don't syndra/Diana/talon to name a few.

im sorry what ? akali has an escape ? this is defintely new to me

KzooCrasherDec 1, 20141 votes

Well I'll admit I don't play her often but she use to get a stack of her ult on kill or assist (I think she still does). That extra stack after assasinating is used as an escape all the time. Its highly effective.....

foristDec 1, 20141 votes

she also has a disengage with her shroud, or simply a way to wait for cooldowns.

JustMyBassCannonDec 2, 20141 votes

His kit was fine, he was considered a troll pick for 2 years straight without receiving a single buff, but now all of the sudden his kit is super toxic and op. Gotta love this game's player-base screaming nerf every-time they get outplayed and beaten by a champion they haven't played as.

But seriously, you might wanna try playing a champ before you give insight on how balanced his kit is. Just a thought.

What part of "Talon Main" flies over your head? I mainly played assassins during the entirety of S1/S2, especially Talon and Katarina.

What part of "Burst rotation as powerful as Zed's that he's able to throw out within that 1-second Silence's duration" is beyond your understanding?

What part of "I actually have significant experience with this" was not implied? Or are you really taking Bunies' word and believe that I main Trundle?

foristDec 2, 20141 votes

What part of "I actually have significant experience with this" was not implied? Or are you really taking Bunies' word and believe that I main Trundle?

Wouldn't be surprised if you did. If you want my reasoning for not believing you are experienced with talon look yourself up on lolking, then look me up. Compare our ranked stats, then tell me why I should accept your opinions on this champ.

Also, talon and zed may have comparable bursts early game, but zed far out-scales talon in the late game, I would think that even you knew this much. When you compare the 2 kits you should be able to tell which champ is better.... hint, hint: every one of zeds skills is better than talon's including his passive and he is resource-less, so he has an innate design advantage even from the get go

JustMyBassCannonDec 2, 20141 votes

Wouldn't be surprised if you did. If you want my reasoning for not believing you are experienced with talon look yourself up on lolking, then look me up. Compare our ranked stats, then tell me why I should accept your opinions on this champ.

Yeah, I have shit ranked statistics. That tends to happen when you don't play Ranked. I've never had a reason to play Ranked, or a stable internet connection when I wanted to play Ranked. Doesn't mean I haven't played well over 3k games (the record doesn't show what I played before S1, because it reset everyone's stuff during the pre-season when they were redesigning the client) on this account, let alone I had one smurf for a few months that I dropped back in S2.

Tell me why I should accept your opinions. You're scraping the bottom of Gold ranking. As opposed to me not really caring about my competitive League stats, you're trying your best and only barely getting recognized as "better than average".

Then again, I've disrespected the stupid opinions of a few plat players before. They were very rare, very special cases of humanity high on paint fumes. You're just the average "Look at my shiny badge, it validates my lack of an argument" person.

Also, talon and zed may have comparable bursts early game, but zed far out-scales talon in the late game, I would think that even you knew this much. When you compare the 2 kits you should be able to tell which champ is better.... hint, hint: every one of zeds skills is better than talon's including his passive and he is resource-less, so he has an innate design advantage even from the get go

When you do the math on their damage output, late-game, Zed's capable of maybe a few hundred points of damage more than Talon, assuming he triple-hits with his Q shurikens on a lone target. Talon, meanwhile, has significantly better AoE and more easily achieved burst.

Also, you do not get to use the cop-out of "He's manaless so he's innately better." I don't give a damn that you're comparing him to Talon, who is notorious for having mana problems among the people who have played him. But all that being manaless means is that he's allowed to use his spells more freely. That doesn't make them guaranteed to hit or deal more damage automatically.

Talon gets almost the same damage as Zed, late-game, for about 1/3 the effort.

foristDec 2, 20142 votes

Not really using my rank to my advantage. What I meant was for you to look at the amount of games I've played the champion in ranked, that just translates to better experience. If you wanna debate the difference between ranked games and normal games, find someone else to do it with. I'm not asking you to accept my opinions anywhere in any of my posts, what I am asking is for you to consider the validity of your own opinions, because they don't make any sense. Saying a champions entire kit is toxic, because of one element is ridiculous. Also, saying that talon takes 1/3 the effort of zed is just dumb, zed's kit has many more advantages to talon's, especially the fact that talon's kit is quite binary whereas zed's kit is way more flexible. As for the mana-gating comparison, just accept that zed wins in both cool-downs and skill efficiency and move on, there's really no room for debate in this category.

Also, I'm not highly offended or anything, because I honestly don't give a shit about rank, I play for the rewards at the end of the season, but you should probably shouldn't talk down to people when you clearly aren't above them. Makes you seem kind of like a cunt, especially when you throw in that whole look at how hard you try and you still suck, but I don't really care about rank, so my opinions are much better because I'm just above the system spiel. Actually maybe conceited is a better word for that kind of attitude I guess.

JustMyBassCannonDec 2, 20141 votes

Not really using my rank to my advantage. What I meant was for you to look at the amount of games I've played the champion in ranked, that just translates to better experience. If you wanna debate the difference between ranked games and normal games, find someone else to do it with.

You're not using your rank to your advantage, but you are saying that my ranking invalidates what I say. Because, obviously, there's no way a player could have any semblance of knowledge regarding balance when they mostly play normals (and recently vs AI due to lack of free time).

I know there's a gap between normals and ranked. I can see the difference. I have a much stronger understanding of the game than you would ever believe, simply because I don't wear a rank badge. But, again, because I don't have that badge, I somehow appear even more arrogant because I'm telling you I know this game, I've done my research both on paper and in-game, and I can make an accurate estimate of something.

I'm not asking you to accept my opinions anywhere in any of my posts, what I am asking is for you to consider the validity of your own opinions, because they don't make any sense. Saying a champions entire kit is toxic, because of one element is ridiculous.

I didn't say his entire kit was toxic. I said his kit was based around one toxic element.

After the removal of his toxic Silence, around which his kit was based.

This implies not that the entire kit was toxic, but it was focused around one bad element. Once you remove the center pole of the tent, the entire thing crashes down. That's precisely what happened with Talon.

What I'm saying, very slowly and with small words, is that Talon. Needs. To. Be. Reworked.

Also, saying that talon takes 1/3 the effort of zed is just dumb, zed's kit has many more advantages to talon's, especially the fact that talon's kit is quite binary whereas zed's kit is way more flexible. As for the mana-gating comparison, just accept that zed wins in both cool-downs and skill efficiency and move on, there's really no room for debate in this category.

I actually would debate with you on those baseless opinions, but you don't regard my opinion as valid in the first place. I'm certainly arrogant because I don't think my lack of ranking matters, and you're every bit as arrogant to believe your argument has no holes.

Also, I'm not highly offended or anything, because I honestly don't give a shit about rank, I play for the rewards at the end of the season, but you should probably shouldn't talk down to people when you clearly aren't above them. Makes you seem kind of like a cunt, especially when you throw in that whole look at how hard you try and you still suck, but I don't really care about rank, so my opinions are much better because I'm just above the system spiel. Actually maybe conceited is a better word for that kind of attitude I guess.

"When you clearly aren't above them."

I talk down to arrogant people, regardless of whether or not they're better than me at the game. I can't stand people who will substitute an argument with their ego.

The people willing to actually debate something and prove their points will get far more respect than the ones whose first reaction to my points is to look up my ranking.

foristDec 2, 20141 votes

Long post with a lot of quotes, but not really any of the quotes are validating your statements. I'll say it once again, this was never about rank. Please, quit making it a debate about ranking, I brought up your lolking statistics, because I just don't believe you have enough experience with the champion. Never once in this thread have I mentioned your actual rank. Talking down to people is conceited, whether you are challenger or bronze, its definitely not the right way to earn anyone's respect. I don't understand the meaning of substituting an argument with an ego, if you mean to say I'm validating my argument with my ego, then I assure you that I'm not. The only reason I looked up your lolking stats is because you said you were a talon main, and the weight of such a phrase appeals highly to the ethos of those reading it, so I just wanted to make sure you weren't falsely claiming you were. Whether you really are or not, I still don't know. I don't see much talon in your match history, but that feature is limited on lolking so idk.

As for debating talon vs zed, create a new thread and we can gladly debate it in a less-crowded area. I assure you my opinions about zed's kit being much better are very far from baseless.

Finally, I do agree that talon needs to be reworked, not because he had/has a toxic kit, but because riot is strongly against giving him any attention other than nerfs. It would definitely be a nice change of pace to see them doing something that actually benefits talon other than nerfing other champs that go mid lane.

JustMyBassCannonDec 3, 20141 votes

For debating Talon vs Zed, I'm not planning on starting a whole new thread for that. I have no reason to do such a thing. I'm of the opinion that Zed is not very problematic; across the board, Zed has a high pick rate, but an average win rate that doesn't really fluctuate above 48% in any rank tier above gold (and even in gold, it's only 49% at the highest in recent records). Yes, I'm aware that win rate is not the standard for whether or not a champ is balanced, but it's a good representation of how the champion is doing. When played right, he's hard to out-maneuver, but it's not impossible to turn the tables on him either. I am also of the opinion that Talon, pre-nerf, was problematic. I've done the math before (and, if you want to give me a Talon build vs a Zed build to compare, I can do it again) and found that Talon and Zed are capable of about the same amount of burst damage (last time I did that equation, Talon had 250 bonus AD, and Zed had 310 because of his W passive). Post-nerf, he's struggling because his kit was balanced around that silence being his main defense. As long as his kit is still based on that design, Talon is not going to be fine. He's still capable of damage output on Zed's level, but now his targets can actually react with Flash, Zhonya's, Exhaust, or even return fire and kill him for jumping on them.

The short version; Zed is not a problem, and Talon has problems. The two are unrelated coincidences.

You're right, talking down to people is not a way to earn respect. That's why this entire thing took a nosedive when your first reaction was to tell me that my lolking statistics were a more accurate gauge of whether or not I mained Talon than my own knowledge. Because the past 10 matches in my history, which span over a month (which ought to tell you that I haven't had much free time to play League lately), are such an accurate representation of an account that has existed for 4 years.

Dismissive arrogance is not any less arrogant than aggressive arrogance.

foristDec 3, 20141 votes

Ok look, I had this long-ass response response all typed up and everything, but I accidentally clicked someone's name and couldn't stop the link, so I lost the entire motherfucking post I had typed. I'll just add the last bit, because I'm tired and don't wanna deal with this right now.

We should both look at it this way, we both think talon's is under powered right now, and needs either a new kit or some decent compensation for losing his cc. We disagree on whether talon pre-nerf was a problem (toxic) or not, which is fine, because I can't see why it would be unreasonable for people to have a different preference about how they get killed, bottom line is no one likes dying in this game. We also somewhat disagree about whether pre-nerf talon or zed was stronger, which is also fine. The truth is, both of our opinions are irrelevant, because riot has nerfed him, and they aren't reverting it. So all the squabbling about the past has no real bearing on the future of both these champs.

I, personally, am truly sorry for looking up your statistics and using them as reasoning for disregarding your comments. It was lazy and I didn't want to go into detail as to why i disagree with you, but that's no excuse. The real reason I disagree with you is because we are different people and have different opinions; however, that's the basis of discussion though, so its good that we can both agree and disagree on some things. I'm also sorry for having such an arrogant attitude, I can assure you that it was completely inadvertent, but that just shows a lack of situational awareness on my part.

Anyways, I'm done posting on these forums to share my opinions, because in all honesty, I don't really care what people think about them or whether they agree with or not. The only reason I even decided to start posting on here is because I thought I could get riot's attention, and hopefully get their clarification on my favorite champ, but I've come to the sad realization that they just don't care about him or even play him for that matter. I mean there is no excuse for a full 2 months of silence without a single bit of recognition. So I'm giving up on trying to change this game, instead I'm just gonna shut up and enjoy it. Only gonna use the boards to either help people out, clarify issues regarding gameplay or discuss positive things, like how good pawn is with assassins, I mean the dude picked katarina in world's, into blitzcrank. I just think that is one of the ballsy-est things I've ever seen. (sorry side-tracked). But, yah I'm gonna just bury the hatchet and move on.

JustMyBassCannonDec 4, 20141 votes

...

I'm sorry, too. For blowing things out of proportion, for assuming things about your character, and for my own arrogance.

And you are right; our opinions aren't so far separated aside from specifics about these champions (which probably could have been a much more civil discourse than what happened).

...damn. This is the first time I've been in a frustrating argument with someone about opinions, only to end up respecting them for their maturity. I'm...just gonna shut up and leave before I start rambling.