Fighting a Proxy Singed is the single worst experience in this game.

Yetis In Need··8 votes·7,177 views

Some prefaces:

  1. I am not claiming Singed is unbalanced, or in need of a specific buff or nerf. This is a topic about Singed's champion direction, and how it enables a strategy that, when you play against, removes all the fun from the game for you.
  2. I am a level 30 EUW player with around 4k games played since pre-Season 1; this is just my NA account.
  3. For anyone not aware, proxy Singed is when people play Singed between the current enemy tower, and their Nexus, using his poison trail to kill minion waves while avoiding any combat with the enemy laner.

Fighting against a proxy Singed makes me not want to play this game. There are plenty of match-ups in LoL that are biased in one champion's favour, and heavens know I've raged my fair share against them, but very few completely remove the reasons I play the game in the manner proxy Singed does. I can appreciate that Singed's champion design is intended to make him a tanky champion you do not chase; the problem is that proxy Singed creates a situation that is lose-lose for their opponent, often both in-game and for the player's actual enjoyment.

For me, the laning phase is an important part of LoL. Spacing, harassing, positioning for ganks and attempting to avoid theirs, trying to keep your CS reasonable, and taking enemy towers, or denying them creeps through zoning; all of these are interesting game mechanics that players learn to master as they get better at playing the game. Improving at any of these is a tangible reward for players, and none of them are in play when you are playing against a champion who isn't even on the same screen as you half the time.

Let's first look at how dealing with proxy Singed is a lose-lose in gameplay terms.

There are two options when facing him; the first is farm equally yourself, before the minions hit the turret (Plan A). We should then compare the relative efficiency of the two farming methods.

Singed uses a very small portion of his mana to clear a wave, and because he is constantly on the move, takes minimal damage from the creep wave while doing so. Additionally, because he is farming between the towers, the creeps will never damage his own tower.

Most other top laners, barring exceptions such as Heimerdinger, will not be even remotely as efficient, especially during the earlier stages of the game. If you let the minions reach the tower and last hit between turret shots, your turret is taking damage while Singed's is not. If you tank the creeps yourself before they hit the turret, then with no creep wave of your own, you will take full damage from the wave, meaning you need to have some sort of sustenance for yourself if you don't want to end up on low health and very vulnerable to a gank. Finally, because you never have a creep wave of your own, you can never push the enemy's turret.

This situation is at best going even, and in most cases, losing resources compared to Singed. This is amplified if you do not have Teleport yourself, as it means you will also lose a creep wave while returning to lane.

The second option is to attack Singed, either solo, or with help from your jungler and/or mid (Plan B).

Firstly, there is the creep cost to consider. The nature of Singed's Q means that even while being ganked, he still has a good chance of getting the CS from a passing minion wave. You, meanwhile, will generally lose at least one minion wave in the time it takes to kill Singed (if you succeed), if not two depending on how difficult it is to kill him at the current stage of the game.

Secondly, the pressure cost elsewhere. If mid comes to help, the enemy mid is getting a free push on mid tower, and your mid is similarly losing CS from being out of their lane. It can be very difficult in solo queue to convince a mid laner to come and help kill a proxy Singed. Singed's presence in your own jungle also causes problems for the jungler. A good proxy Singed will bring wards to aid their escape and also keep vision over much of your jungle, as well as potentially stealing jungle camps when available.

Thirdly, and perhaps the biggest problem, is that even trying to chase Singed away can be very difficult depending on your team composition; you are not guaranteed a kill just because you decide to tackle the issue this way, as Singed is designed to be a champion who is hard to catch. His damage never requires him to stop moving, meaning he will always be moving faster than a champion who has to stop to cast a spell or move; he also has inherent movement speed on his ult, and the slow on his W, not to mention most Singed players running Ghost.

Finally, although the change to allow champions to regain their kill value (i.e. how much you get when you kill them) by killing minions has alleviated the problem of it not being worth your time in gold to kill a, e.g. 0/7 proxy Singed, it is still a contributing factor.

Essentially, Singed is the perfect storm of exceptionally efficient wave clear coupled with excellent escape options that allows him to use this strategy to its fullest. While some other champions like Udyr can also try to proxy, they generally have to commit more, have a harder time escaping, and need a bigger gold advantage over their laning opponent to make it work.

The next aspect, most importantly here, is why I call this strategy anti-fun.

In Plan A, you are not doing anything enjoyable in the game. Auto-attacking minions with nobody around is not fun. Nobody is so interested in this activity that they load up Practice mode just so they can kill creeps in a game with nobody else in it. None of the enjoyable aspects of laning that I mentioned above are present here. You're not even practising your skills at last hitting - unless done under the turret - since you have to kill the creep wave from 100 to 0. There is absolutely nothing enjoyable about this experience whatsoever, and it is not why I, or anyone I know of, plays LoL.

And in Plan B, you are almost always playing on Singed's terms. Yes, you're doing it in your jungle/top lane, which confers some advantage in how much distance Singed has to cover to reach his own safety, but you inherently must play to what Singed is best at, which is escaping from being chased, while putting out damage on those who are chasing, leaving them vulnerable too. You know that you're losing any creeps in top lane while it's happening, and that your tower is being pressured while you're away, and the only hope is that you will actually kill Singed to try and make it worth it. Now that death timers in the early game are far less punitive, this also applies to how quickly a proxy Singed can return to lane and get back to their devilry.

With this huge tract of text provided, I cannot say what I would do to improve this situation. I can't personally see any simple solution to this problem, as it is an emergent problem from a number of different factors, all of which combine to produce this result. I can only repeat my main point, which is that playing against this is deeply enjoyable and frustrating, and every time it happens it is the last time I play LoL that day because it is simply not fun and there is no real reason to play LoL casually, if not for fun. I have not yet encountered a single person who can say that they enjoy the gameplay of playing against proxy Singed.

Please, please, please Riot; take a look at Singed, and try and create a champion who retains the core identity of a 'tanky' mad scientist, but does not have this strategy available to him. The recent buff to his E was enough to bring back a resurgence of Singed players, and with him, this playstyle.

30 Comments

Drunk Rummate3 votes

I understand your point OP, I dislike uninteractive playstyles like this a lot.

Against Proxy Singed I generally like to let the wave hit my tower. Sure, it goes down pretty fast, but once that tower's dead it lets you back up and it removes a lot of proxy singed's gimmick from him. Now if he wants to proxy, he has to do it closer to (or inside) your base, increasing the risk significantly. The turret gold itself isn't going to be so game changing to the entire game, and once your lane breaks down it gives you a lot more freedom to roam around between waves. Singed adds very little help to his team in the midgame outside of split pushing, and it's fairly easy to neutralize his split push with the right champions.

Yetis In Need2 votes

Ah, this is something I forgot to address in the OP, so let me talk about it here.

This is definitely true, but it is also again a 'lose' in my opinion.

It does make Singed's proxying harder, I totally agree with that, assuming he stays in top lane. However, it also creates more risk for your jungler and you should you ever attempt to push back at top, as you are now lacking a tower. Any invasion into your top jungle once the outer tower is down has one less avenue of escape, and one more avenue of approach.

Drunk Rummate2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yetis In Need,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IdRmIEFy,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-03-26T19:29:51.090+0000)

Ah, this is something I forgot to address in the OP, so let me talk about it here.

This is definitely true, but it is also again a 'lose' in my opinion.

It does make Singed's proxying harder, I totally agree with that, assuming he stays in top lane. However, it also creates more risk for your jungler and you should you ever attempt to push back at top, as you are now lacking a tower. Any invasion into your top jungle once the outer tower is down has one less avenue of escape, and one more avenue of approach.

The thing is, fast outer turret pushing is not an uncommon strategy for many champions. How many times have you seen lane swaps with lucian taking the turret minutes into the game in LCS? Or how about Caitlyn + Morgana lanes that shove in and poke the tower 5 times every single minion wave? You can't really do anything to stop this style of play in a lot of cases. It's annoying, sure, but it has disadvantages as well.

LoRdJeSuS69694203 votes

I disagree. Proxy farming is dangerous, especially early, and if the singed feeds an early kill or two he's going to remain killable for a long time and won't be able to proxy farm at all. And once the game goes on for a bit, most champions can clear the wave themselves without it ever reaching the tower--you could even proxy farm his creeps, and then go roam to another lane before the next wave arrives.

If he does successfully proxy farm early on, and survives to the point where he becomes very difficult to kill, it means you and your jungler probably did a poor job of managing it, and there should be some drawback for you because of that. It's a risk vs. reward thing.

UKGhostLegend1 votes

he just dies 5 times in 15min for top laner to go to him or even other laners to come and kill him just wastes time he wont let the top laner leave his lane because he does nothing but goes back after it... its such a dumb champ.. item 3512

BluePolarizer3 votes

You know what beats Proxy Singed?

Everyone on the team buying Mejais/Sword of the Occult to stack off him.

Lil Soybean2 votes

Pick someone who farms well or has hard CC. Don't chase. Be more useful to your team.

Yetis In Need2 votes

I'm not saying there aren't options, especially in Draft Mode, that are strong against Singed, both in terms of top laner or jungler. I absolutely acknowledge that there are counters to this strategy, and that is largely why you don't see it in at professional levels of play.

My point is primarily that it is unfun to play against on a pure gameplay level in a way that most biased match-ups are not. Additionally, as I am talking about LoL as a whole, blind pick existing is also a consideration.

Lil Soybean1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yetis In Need,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IdRmIEFy,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-03-26T19:19:15.176+0000)

I'm not saying there aren't options, especially in Draft Mode, that are strong against Singed, both in terms of top laner or jungler. I absolutely acknowledge that there are counters to this strategy, and that is largely why you don't see it in at professional levels of play.

My point is primarily that it is unfun to play against on a pure gameplay level in a way that most biased match-ups are not. Additionally, as I am talking about LoL as a whole, blind pick existing is also a consideration.

Fair argument.

galdamesh2 votes

build tiamet, almost any ad based top laner with tiamet can farm just as hard

Yetis In Need2 votes

Sure, but again this brings us back to both the resource argument (as Tiamat/Hydra are not always optimal builds for some characters), and more importantly, the anti-fun aspect which is that I don't want to spend 20 minutes auto-attacking creeps in the middle of lane with nothing else to do.

galdamesh3 votes

tiamet is %100 cost efficient in every situation as an ad champ against someone proxy farming. can you think of any ad based laner that doesn't want to spend 1900 gold (and it's build path is even useful) to secure the rest of the cs untill singed changes strategy.

singed "scales" into late game by hitting lvl 18 first and having more gold, if someone is the same size as him almost all laners will have more impact in a team fight situation.

blind pick your not an ad top and there's a singed? lane swap so an ad laner is.

those 20 minutes farm fest might be "anti-fun" to you but being a HUGE impact in team fights at 21 minutes feels pretty good to me

Yetis In Need1 votes

If you confine the question to AD tops: Gnar, Hecarim, Jayce, Nasus, Poppy, (Warwick), Yasuo, Yorick

That's not including the non-AD champions who don't have such an option.

Convincing someone to lane swap might work, but a lot of the time people don't want to swap. Especially if Singed is picked later in champion selection, after other lanes have chosen champions that they feel match their opponent's champion well.

Again, I feel you're looking at this as a "how do I counter this?" question, rather than a "is this unfun enough that it needs to be changed." Yes, I could absolutely pick Mordekaiser or Maokai or Malzahar or Riven or almost any other champion who can clear waves perfectly, and that limits the effectiveness of Singed's strategy, assuming I know I'm going into a proxy Singed. But it still ends up with an unenjoyable game for me, and doing so, at best, goes even with Singed, so it's not necessarily meaning I will do amazingly in teamfights when (if) it comes to that.

galdamesh2 votes

well A) singed needs to be ahead to have team fight impact 7 times out of 10, that's a balance consideration there. B) you can't really bring blind pick into balance discussions because if a champ is balance by being weak to a specific type of champion (IE vlad and early aggression) that doesn't make him unbalance cause you blind picked a passive laner into him. C)gnar and jayce admitedly but they are ranged at least %50 of the time. poppy loves tiamet farm, proxy farming a nasus will end badly usually, warwick doesn't need anything to stop the proxy farm neither does yorick. (forgot hec edit) hecarim heal area and q spam will proxy farm after a few items so again it's a bit of a moot point.

the question should always be "do i have options to counter this" when looking to change champions, if X has fun playing proxy singed why is your fun more important then his when you have options?

DrPyro1 votes

Well you can't build a Tiamat befor you have farmed more than a few waves makeing it a pritty irelevant solution. The problem is getting the 1900g you need without loseing to much because you have to back heal up and get back into lane.

Unless you play Aatrox.

galdamesh2 votes

singed also can't proxy farm effectively at lvl 1.

most ad melee tops can farm under tower at high efficiency with just pick axe.

DrPyro1 votes

But then again you don't start with a pickaxe, and when farming under tower like that your turret takes alot of damage.

I do enjoy playing Tryndamere into this because it means I get uncontested farm until I hit 6, but it's still boring as hell.

Like if I wanted a boring lane I would play bot, when I'm in a solo lane I wanna farm champs just as much as creeps.

galdamesh2 votes

singed can't safely proxy farm at lvl 1, so unless you can't get pick axe gold by your first back moot point. if you juggle agro between yourself and the turret you can keep it standing 10 minutes fairly easily with just a dorans blade and your health pots anyways.

just because the singed doesn't want to play how you want him to does not mean your fun is paramount to his. you have options even in blind pick the majority of times, and if your team truly has no answer for proxy singed you were either greatly outpicked in draft or he is the luckiest singed ever in blind pick.

Zarxis2 votes

Didn't Riot already indirectly nerf proxy Singed by increasing the minimum gold you gain from killing a champion on a death streak?

Invite your jungler in for a free kill (if you both have CC, you can kill Singed. He's good at running, but he doesn't have any CC mitigation or obscene damage for 2v1 scenarios). Pick someone who can farm just as hard and safely as Singed (I suggest Nasus, who can simply sit in front of the turret and Q minions to sustain and build stacks). Pick someone who has a way to CC/catch Singed. Pick a champion that can build Tiamat and simply power farm in front of your turret. Play someone that can harass Singed to death while he's attempting to proxy (someone with range); your jungler can come by when Singed tried to leave if you can't afford to chase him and finish the job.

It's a frustrating strategy that I haven't seen a Singed employ in quite some time, but it can be worked around. It also tends to hurt Singed more than it hurts you and your team.

Another idea... What if you built Zz'rot Portal and placed it extremely close to Singed's tower?

Yetis In Need1 votes

Zz'rot Portal and Banner of Command are both unusual possible responses, but you're then looking at diverging from a strong build for your champion just to mitigate his strategy, which I feel is a 'lose'.

Zarxis1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yetis In Need,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IdRmIEFy,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-03-26T19:47:36.089+0000)

Zz'rot Portal and Banner of Command are both unusual possible responses, but you're then looking at diverging from a strong build for your champion just to mitigate his strategy, which I feel is a 'lose'.

We all have to build according to our opponents. I don't like building Spirit Visage on Gangplank because I'd prefer to have more damage in my full build, but if I'm laning against Ryze, Teemo, Singed (proxy or not), etc., it's too good to pass up. Also, those items are underrated; don't dismiss them because they're unpopular.

Yetis In Need1 votes

There are two responses to this:

The first is that Singed is not making the sacrifice you are in terms of item effectiveness. His strategy does not require any specific itemisation, and he will build as optimally as is possible if not shut down. When you reach a teamfight, he will be at peak effectiveness, whereas you will be slightly below having spent money on an inefficient item.

The second, perhaps more importantly, is that, yes, while it might suck to have to build Spirit Visage on Gangplank, by doing so you actually provide yourself with a better chance of killing the little sociopath when you fight him, because you do actually get to fight him. You are essentially trying to weigh statistics (his AP and armour vs your AD and MR) in your favour so that when you fight, he doesn't steamroll you, whereas with BoC/Zz'rot, you're spending money to try and mitigate a strategy's damage to you, with less reward for yourself. Neither of these items are too helpful if you do intent to try and hunt Singed down.

(though BoC is actually a good response in the rare cases where you're on a champion who wants to build it, as it causes the siege minion not to take aoe magic damage)

Ultimately I feel like, again, we're discussing "bandage" counters to proxy Singed gameplay, rather than whether the gameplay itself is good for the game.

BluePolarizer3 votes

The objective is to win the game.

Anything that you do that gets you closer to winning the game, you should do.

Winning a 1v1 lane does not mean winning the game.

I've played with a Riven that built Frozen Heart right after Hydra against a Tryndamere, Half the stats on Frozen Heart are useless. However, the ones that counted - the armor, CDR and slow - were amazing against Tryndamere. This allowed Riven to snowball in mid-game teamfights while still being able to duel Tryndamere, prevent him from splitpushing and getting ahead, and once late game hit, Tryndamere wasn't ahead, didn't have sufficient pressure top, and has zero teamfight utility.

If you are not willing to buy items to win the game, I don't know what to tell you.

Zarxis2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yetis In Need,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IdRmIEFy,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-26T20:10:02.181+0000)

There are two responses to this: snip

Singed is sacrificing himself to your team if you can coordinate a few good jungle ganks or if you picked a champion that can harass him while he's proxying. If you manage him well, you can afford to build whatever you want because you and your jungler will be farming a champion (Singed).

No matter what strategy a champion employs, you're always weighing your stats against theirs... Proxy Singed is no exception. Zz'Rot and Banner of Command both provide useful stats against Singed (MR, HP, HP Regen), along with useful actives. I never said that they're perfect solutions— we're not talking about item 3140 and Warwick/Malzahar. You could also try item 3144, item 3116, item 3022, and item 3025.

I understand your ultimate point, though. Yes, proxy Singed is a controversial and frustrating form of play, but there's a reason that it's not popular or considered useful in upper elos: it can be turned to your team's advantage/it can be played against.

The only way Riot could completely remove it is by doing something overly drastic that would harm the game more than it would help. It would have to be something like reworking Singed (unnecessary because he is fairly balanced and proxying isn't a major issue as of late, plus it would completely change Singed's identity and normal gameplay) or putting temporary walls behind first-tier turrets (which would ruin early-game tower dives and general proxying, which, again, can be turned to your advantage). Just because Fiddlesticks requires champions with no hard CC to retreat from his Drain to end it doesn't mean he's a horrible atrocity of balance that Riot needs to immediately rework or nerf down to a 35% winrate... It means you need to counterpick, counterplay, and coordinate. People don't usually take Fiddlesticks into lane against CC-less champions just because his Drain is a pain in the arse to those champions... Just like most players don't bother trying proxy Singed. It's an easily counterpicked and counterplayed strategy that tends to backfire. Both are frustrating when the strategy actually manages to work (at all), but they're not major balancing issues due to their inherent weaknesses.

BakedLotion2 votes

Whenever i see a proxy singed, I just kill him. Hes quite easy to kill early game when you have a burst dmg mid laner or jungler o-o Takes no more than 15 seconds

WarlockLaw2 votes

I have always believed that whenever riot talks about anti-fun design or toxic game play, Singed will always be the poster boy. I would rather play against yorrick or nasus or nidalee during their strong patches than a singed.

UKGhostLegend1 votes

Singed Agree... a sec ago was vs singed playing riven... he did nothing but die 5 times in a row just farming between my top and middle lane towers and he still could kill me by just ghosting that champs sucks the bloody fun of playing... ahitem 3512 item 3070

Qazgir2 votes

Now go and try fighting proxy Axe in Dota and then tell me how you feel.

OperationDEEZ11 votes

Jungle against Shaco and then talk to me scrub

Klubhouse1 votes

The thing is, is that singed generally needs to already have an advantage over you in order for this strategy to work. Does it feel bad? Yeah, it's probably one of the more painful strategies to encounter

It's very risky, and it's one of those things you just need to encounter over and over again until you develop a comfortable response to it, it's like me whenever I find myself going into a riven match up top lane, I'm still trying to figure out how to effectively handle her, but that doesn't mean she's completely broken, just requires a bit of forethought.

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