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Malzahar support is again nerfed. But Malzahar mid is stomped into the ground.

Le Valenok··58 votes·5,148 views

I love Riot gamedev desicions sometimes. Kappa. For example, like it was with Kayle during s4, when they nerfed her Q scaling from 1.0 to 0.6 AP, making her trash-tier champion (before her E was buffed). But the thing I like even more is the way, how Riot explain us their moves. Just look into that beautiful words > Malzahar's voidlings are too damaging to ignore, but for may bot laners - too difficult to dispatch quickly...

I'll not even mention that Malza supp got less than 50% wr in plat+ and gets stomped in lane by any disengage support like Nami or Janna (if they have at least half of brain and know Malza predictable mechanics). And it is OK that support without peel for allied ADC is supposed to have pressure at enemy ADC, at least.

But are voidling too difficult to dispatch quickly for many midlaners as well? I just want to say that nerfing voildings will make midlane Malzahar competely unable to cs in meta of fast-clear mid champions. And I wonder why again and again Riot nerfs secondary role of champion without any care about it's main purpose and how nerfs can affect it. [zombie-nunu-bummed]

75 Comments

Rebonack26 votes

Obvious solution: revert the mini-rework he got. It created far more problems than it solved.

Hyrum Graff4 votes

{quoted}

Obvious solution: revert the mini-rework he got. It created far more problems than it solved.

Or this. (shameless self-promotion)

Mataka Tek25 votes

This also completely trashed his ability to jungle.

SweedishGunner16 votes

It just trashed him full circle. All his damage is in his Voidlings and they keep nerfing him without any other buffs.

DeathBurst13 votes

Meddler mentioned they are not happy with Malza sup, like, at all, and want to get him out of Bot completely and back into Mid as his main/most played lane.

Meep Man23 votes

They aren't doing a very good job. It looks like they are just pushing him out of the game in general.

Erockandroll6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chicken Dynasty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IMwFYUnc,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-04-19T14:06:54.733+0000)

They aren't doing a very good job. It looks like they are just pushing him out of the game in general.

For the moment.

They don't have the Luxury to address the issue in the long run, but feel obligated to fix the oppressive mechanics in the support position before MSI. More so that all the mid season balancing is around the tank itemization, (and some support item changes) that they really don't have time to commit to malz.

[{quoted}](name=FF Hyperion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IMwFYUnc,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-04-19T13:37:14.685+0000)

As much as I love Malz. They just need to take away his voidlings and give him a new skill.

They have done nothing buy nerfs to it, making him completely unplayable in the mid lane.

Some how I Doubt that Riot is going to abandon the Void swarm idea. (I don't particularly think they should) Just with how unique it is compared to other mages. Chances are, Malz is going to become the new Ryze. Have such a difficult theme that it takes 3 or 4 reworks before they get it right.

Dynamiku Entry5 votes

They still havn't gotten Ryze right. What's your point

Fefnil1 votes

How is Ryze not good? He now has skill expression with decision making behind Q and E effects and has a utility ult so it doesn't influence his damage patterns.

Meep Man3 votes

They keep his W unchanged every rework, which is the spawn of all his balance issues. Instant root in a burst mage is not a good mechanic.

iTaLenTZ3 votes

{quoted}

Meddler mentioned they are not happy with Malza sup, like, at all, and want to get him out of Bot completely and back into Mid as his main/most played lane.

I am not happy with Meddler or Repertoir. I want them out of the game as much as they want Malz out of bot. Why don't just revert the failed rework?

The Yetii Rider5 votes

{quoted}

I am not happy with Meddler or Repertoir. I want them out of the game as much as they want Malz out of bot. Why don't just revert the failed rework?

Because A) reverting reworks sets a precedent that changes can and will be reversed after some time, and that kind of uncertainty can discourage people from playing the new rework altogether and B) the art team made his new passive. Riot already paid for it, they're not going to take it back.

Dynamiku Entry7 votes

Oh you mean like how they reverted the Kog rework?

The Yetii Rider6 votes

The first time they have done something like this in eight years of the game being out, and the only time. There were no new visual effects added to Kog'maw during the rework that needed to be reverted. The same cannot be said of Malzahar or many other reworks. There was no cost associated with producing the rework, thus it could be partially reverted. And the initial disruptive gameplay they set out to remove with the original rework, that of Kog'maw as an AP poke mid laner, is still gone. His ultimate is still crap unless you use it as an execute.

iDemacia3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IMwFYUnc,comment-id=00010002000100000000,timestamp=2017-04-19T21:49:29.214+0000)

There was no cost associated with producing the rework

You mean like the cost of paying the design/ development team to come up with the rework and then actually make the changes?? Lol

The Yetii Rider5 votes

And they still didn't revert it completely. They changed his W and Q back to the way they were, and left his E and R the way they changed it. Riot doesn't revert reworks, asking for a revert isn't fruitful or helpful. Everyone would be better off making suggestions for how the new Malz could be altered slightly to improve his mid lane without making his supporting stronger.

DeathBurst3 votes

That's absolutely not why Riot tends to avoid full reverts.

The thing is, if they changed something in the first place, it's for a reason. There was a problem, and they tried to solve it. Even if the solution failed, the problem won't have disappeared magically if you just revert to the old version.

Kog'maw was reverted because the rework introduced NEW problems that were even worse than the one they tried to solve in the first place, but that's really rare.

DeathBurst2 votes

Because reverting won't make old Malza healthy. It was bad before, the new solution they tried instead is bad too, but the old version is still bad. For different reasons than the new one, but still bad nonetheless.

They did a rework in the first place because there was a problem. The rework failed, but if you revert it completely, you just get back to the old problem.

iTaLenTZ3 votes

{quoted}

Because reverting won't make old Malza healthy. It was bad before, the new solution they tried instead is bad too, but the old version is still bad. For different reasons than the new one, but still bad nonetheless.

They did a rework in the first place because there was a problem. The rework failed, but if you revert it completely, you just get back to the old problem.

Old Malz had other problems but at least nobody complained about him and he was very playable. He was a very strong niche pick in the right hands. Now he is an abomination.

Voluug131 votes

It was bad before if you were an assassin. Otherwise Malz was an easy lane because his range was atrocious, his setup burst sucks, he was inmobile and his mana costs were gigantical.

The problem was always overblown and massively exagerated, which was why Malz never really became a problem outside bandwagoners that appeared since the rework was announces to QQ about how his one Malzahar defeated them as X melee assassin.

DeathBurst1 votes

"bad" or "unhealthy" does not mean "OP". No one ever said that Malzahar was OP, and the fact that he was strong versus Melee Assassins was explicitly stated as a good thing, and purposefully kept for the rework.

When people say that Malza was unhealthy, what it means is that he had absolutely no interaction with his opposing laner and that his only path to success was through flash-bursting a priority target with 0 counterplay available.

Voluug131 votes

Except it wasnt kept, at all. Anti-dive burst was completly lost, and simply ''scares off assassins without killing them'' wasnt why he was strong. His entire reliable anti-dive damage was lost and replaced with sustained damage and conditional voidlings.

what it means is that he had absolutely no interaction with his opposing laner

In a game when assassins are designed and meant to have the upper hand on laneinteraction, anti-assassins NEED have ways to deny interaction while in lane. And even there, its a pretty big misinformation that Malzahar was this farmbot, because his mana costs and early damage on E forced him to lasthit himself until like level 7.

and that his only path to success was through flash-bursting a priority target with 0 counterplay available.

And with this I know you never played Malz because malz was NEVER an annie clone, he was completly unable to flash-combo because his combo cant start with hard CC, unlike Annie's. Also saying it was ''his only option of sucess'' is a bandwagon myth perpetuated by Riot, who didnt have any idea of how malz played and shoved him into an imaginary ''flash assassin'' that was never his most used play pattern.

Also, ''0 counterplay availble'' only happened if you magivally got caugh alone, and let me tell you that Malz is a really tame duelist in the overall game.

Arakadia3 votes

TBH, old Malz wasn't much better.

Voluug132 votes

The only people complaining about him pre-Riot bandwagon of lies were assassin mains that understimated him.

And Old malz was never touched in YEARS and yet he was in his little niche corner instead of becoming an abomination that needed like 10 rounds of nerfs.

''old malz was just as bad'' is a meme by now. As in, completly not real.

Dynamiku Entry5 votes

I don't give a single fuck what Meddler thinks?

DeathBurst5 votes

Well, you should, because it's still him who has the last call about your champion balance.

ZT Xperimentor5 votes

Too bad he's too arrogant to admit the rework was a total failure & revert it.

DeathBurst1 votes

Sure, insult him, that's a good way to get what you want.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Already tried the kind & peaceful method for a couple years, back when they actually collaborated with the community noticeably; however after being spitefully disregarded, why should I give him any respect? Especially given more recent trends of purposely upholding double standards that are ruining the game.

General Esdeath 10 votes

"Let's focus all his damage on voidlings"

-1 year later-

"Let's gut the voidlings"

Hyperiön8 votes

As much as I love Malz. They just need to take away his voidlings and give him a new skill.

They have done nothing buy nerfs to it, making him completely unplayable in the mid lane.

WinTheWarOnPants6 votes

His new kit is just unbalance-able. I hated old malz, but new malz is an abomination. Malz players need to stop crying about nerfs and start asking for his rework to be reverted. They did it for Syndra(should have reverted her entire kit) and KogMaw, so they can do it for malz. But, last i checked rioters were saying BS like "the class updates have been a good thing overall" so who knows

Arkale5 votes

You think we haven't?

Hyperiön2 votes

There was a post about a week or two ago I think. Someone asked for it. and Rito said that Malz is where they want him to be an they wouldn't revert him.

WinTheWarOnPants2 votes

RIP

Voluug132 votes

Did you miss all the ''revert Malz'' threads that have been cropping up since his support fiasco started? Actually, since his rework took place?

HalcyonDweller8 votes

That's a helluva lot of Ad Hominems. And you're using statistics to make Sweeping Generalizations.

No offense, but this needs more analysis, less fallacy.

[zombie-brand-clap]

Doodlzzz6 votes

Riot messed up the malzahar rework and now they are dumping him in the trash

GankLord5 votes

Zyra says hi

ForeverLaxx4 votes

Imagine that. Riot puts all of a champion's power into a single skill that requires no real action from the player to utilize and then nerf it, which makes him bad all-around. Funny that a focus on Voidlings was never what the Malz players wanted when given the various polls and questionnaires about it yet that's where Riot took him anyway.

Now he won't even have that aspect any longer.

3TWarrior4 votes

well, the voidlings were always a core part of him, but the playerbase wants them to be present without being a core part of his damage

basically an addition, like the original but with balance throughout his kit

ForeverLaxx4 votes

I know they liked the idea of the voidlings, but as stated the majority of Malz players didn't want those voidlings to become a central focus. So Riot made them a central focus.

He's a better "summoner" than the reworked Yorick, which is sad since that was the entire point of his rework.

StoryDuck4 votes

This is just a continuation of Riot's war with the support role. If the champion can be a support and mid/top pick they are instantly nerfed into oblivion.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Is he really trash though? http://lolalytics.com/champion/Malzahar/

Mid playrate is only a 1/3rd of his play, which is a problem, but his Mid Winrate seems fairly solid at 50%. His Winrate by mains is also up to 58%, though that itself doesn't specify lane. I'm kinda getting tired of people just saying things.

invisiblecat12 votes

Take that 50% winrate with a grain of salt You really can't see a champions true winrate unless every person of every skill level plays that champion Right now the only people really playing malz mid are the people who will play him once and never again, and then the malz mid mains

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Yeah, but if Malz mains are still winning with him, enough for a 58% winrate by mains, he's probably not dumpster-ed.

invisiblecat13 votes

But then again, maining a champion for only a 58% winrate isn't a lot For example Taliyah for 125+ games is sitting at a winrate in the 70's

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

You can't take someone else's Winrate Height for another champion. Taliyah has a huge skill ceiling, while also sitting on a lower average winrate. A majority of Main Winrates are in the +56%-60% areas, which makes sense. Taliyah is an outlier if anything.

Crede7772 votes

The problem isn't Malz's new kit versus his old kit. I've long been a Malzahar main and have had pretty good success with him. While I originally didn't like his new kit, I've since adapted to it.

The problem is the support role.

Mage supports should not be viable. The support role should entirely consist of shields/heals, tanking, CC, vision control, and buffs. Damage-focused mage supports like Brand, Malzahar, VelKoz, Zyra, and so on should not be viable. If Riot can change the support itemization so that they are not viable, then those champs can be tuned around mid (which is where they should be).

deadlychuck4 votes

As an AD malz main, his new kit is shit and deserves to be flushed with the rest of the shit. Just saying, that's the biggest fuck up that riot made with the rework. I don't play the champion I play the kit. If they change the kit in a way which makes it completely different, i'm not gonna waste my time learning a new kit i don't find enjoyable just because the champion's name is the same.

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