Riot needs to take a stance on animation cancelling- it's counterproductive to their message

SilverScar07··21 votes·2,230 views

For a while now, Riot has been talking about clarity and windows of opportunity to trade in-lane. This clarity ranges from circles in abilities/items, like Ornn's E/Redemption, to rectangles and other markers such as Kayn's W and Ivern's Daisy knock-up. Additionally, Riot has been known to ADD clarity to a champions kit, such as after Zed came out and the X was added so players would know who he was ulting.

So it baffles me when animation cancelling still exists on a number of champions considering it goes against the Riot mantra. The biggest offender is naturally Riven, though others like Renekton definitely abuse this too.

The new Janna PBE changes explicitly mention how the CD on her shield is changing to allow better opportunities to trade in lane. Trading in lane being the important part- how can we effectively trade with a Riven in lane if we're not sure what spells she still even has up? In the same thought, how are we supposed to know which spells are up if we can't see them being cast, since they're being cancelled?

Furthermore, Riven is considered a Skirmisher by Riot's own definition- "...Skirmishers aim to shred through any nearby enemy that approaches. Because Skirmishers lack high-end burst damage or reliable ways of closing in on high-priority targets, they are instead armed with situationally powerful defensive tools to survive in the fray, along with extreme sustained damage to cut down even the most durable targets." Animation cancelling allows Riven to not only have reliable options of closing in, since she's moving so fast, but it allows her high-end burst damage. This definition likens Riven more to an Assassin or a Diver than a Skirmisher.

Either way, it's clear that animation cancelling is a point of contention- look at Nidalee and Graves. Both had their animation cancels taken away.

Tl;dr- Riot needs to take a stance on animation cancelling for clarity and to allow better trading in lane. Should it be allowed, it needs to be brought back to champions that previously had it.

27 Comments

Sire Hippington6 votes

Animation cancelling allows Riven to not only have reliable options of closing in, since she's moving so fast, but it allows her high-end burst damage. (...) Look at Nidalee and Graves. Both had their animation cancels taken away.

This seems like yet another case of people mixing up AA-resets and Animation-canceling. Nidalee and graves both still have animationcancleing just like everybody else And animation-cancleing is not what gives riven that burst.

Animationcancleing is just overrideing the BACKSWING of an animation with another command, AND NOTHING ELSE!!!

This means you stil have the full windup upt to the 'resolve point', so it's still perfectly possible to notice any spellcast despite it. And for AAs, it also has no impact on AS, what it does is allowing you to use the extra time for repositioning or useing skills in between AAs.

What you and most others complain about in the case of riven(and nida) are AA-resets, which let you 'cheat' your AS. For example if you have a 1.5 AS, the time in between AA-resolves is always 0.75sec, wether you cancle animations or not. However, some skills either soft or hard reset that timer. The most common example of that are empowered AAs loke Jax W or Nasus Q, which imidiatly grant acces to another AA. An example for a soft-rest is ashe's Q, it used to fully reset your AA on activation, now it's a partial reset that puts the timer to 40% (so with our 1.5AS, it goes to 0.75 x 0.4 = 0.3sec, so the next AA comes 0.3 sec after useing her Q)

Now what many people didin't know is that Nida had lot's of AA resets in her kit(the cat-W and boith for switches) that alowed her to clear insanely fast aswell as trade rather absurd early on if played perfectly well, and that's what was taken from her, not animation cancleing.

It's also what causes riven to have the fast burst pattern. Each of her Qs is an AA-reset(though not sure if full or partial right now), which is why riven can get the fast combo of. With out the resets, she could chain the Qs fast, but not get in AA's in between, which are actually the main source of damage for her thx to her passive. On the other hand, without animation-cancleing, riven could hardly use the AA-resets as her Q animation lasts so long that her atackrate hardly changes, which causes the somewhat false impression that animationcancleing is what causes her to Attack faster.

Tl;dr - Animationcancleing is and always was part of every single champion and never was removed from anyone. What you mostly complain about are AA-resets, which are a different mechanic.

La Bello4 votes

I get what your are saying but even so I think Rivens fast combo should be removed.

Theres a difference between a meaningful and intended animation cancel such as E(Dash) into R(Ult activation) or W(ki-Burst) into Q (Broken WIng) .

And unintended side effects such as how rapidly clicking around during Broken Wings gives you control of Riven again 0.03s earlier for no specified reason. I think the latter is a bug Riot was browbeat into trying to transform into a feature.

Riot should lock Riven into her Broken wing animations because its ridiculous the damage variance you can get sometimes. I want to keep Riven "highskill cap" just as much as the next guy but it has to make sense how you go about it and it needs to be something that players can understand or something stated in the controls maybe even something players can learn by simply interacting with the character like how Azir can Q mid E for extra range! It should NOT be a romanticized exploitation like how Smash brothers melee fanbase treats their various little glitches . I dont think having the Quick Combo is healthy for the champion overall and it just makes properly balancing her a pain.

(inb4 comments complaining about me just "wanting to make Riven easier for noobs" or something)

Also yes I am aware that riot has attempted to normalize the Quick Combo in the past but I'm just not okay with it on a design level. Its just a weird little byproduct of the older LoL engine/coding and its more trouble than its worth to keep around.It was never intended so why keep it around for all the headaches and controversy it causes?

Sire Hippington1 votes

Not saying rivens fast combo is fine the way it is, i just hate people blameing animation cancle for that and wanting it removed even though it's a core mechanic of the game that all champions use.

Imo her Q shouldn't have an AA-reset on it, or only a weaker partial reset, cause it makes no sense that she can artificially increase her AS for her combo that way. I also wouldn't mind her passive to no longer hold charges or only two so chaincasteing her stuff without useing AAs really hutrts her damage. If that was the case, there also shouldn't be an issue with her normal animationcancleing for Q as 3 quick Qs without AAs wouldn't contribute that much to a quick burst.

The steam life1 votes

But she is balanced she isnt too strong at any level of play. In addition shes kind of bad right now so nerfing her more isnt the right way to go. Its also one of the highest skill cap things you can do as riven so why make her easier to play because she would need compensation buffs somewhere else because its necessary in higher elos.

La Bello2 votes

changes like this have nothing to do with viability.

champion "viability" is always just a matter of numbers. I'm not trying to inflate or deflate Rivens win rate, just make her more consistent to play, play against and learn.

YIMYIMZ1 votes

people like you kill leage

Teridax684 votes

Regardless of whether one approves of animation canceling or not, I think we can all agree that animation canceling right now is not being treated consistently across all champions. Some champions like Illaoi, Kayn, Kha'Zix and Rengar are specifically given animation locks to prevent them from chaining abilities too quickly, while others, like Riven or most marksmen, are not only allowed to cancel their animations, but are specifically balanced around them doing so. This isn't really a question of fluidity, as Rengo and Kha are both assassins, and should therefore be very fluid, so it's more just an issue of certain champions being given animation cancels just because they feel good, or because players have gotten used to them, while others have those same cancels removed or denied for counterplay reasons, even if one side of the argument could easily be applied to the other. As such, Riot needs to take an official stance on animation cancels, and even if they do decide to let only certain champions cancel their animations, they need to give us a definitive enough reasoning on the matter that we can clearly evaluate the consistency of its application.

Personally, I am completely against animation canceling, as I think it's a form of what I'd call empty difficulty in League. Just like empty calories in food contain energy, but no actual nutrition, empty difficulty in League would be mechanics that pose a challenge to the player, but do so without adding any real interaction or gameplay with them and other players, be they teammates or opponents. In this particular case, animation canceling is empty difficulty because it only relies on the player's own ability to identify the point at which an animation can be canceled, and successfully cancel it, and can be achieved literally just by playing a lot of Practice Mode. In fact, many Riven tutorials instruct the player to practice animation canceling and wall-hopping in Practice Mode (or, if the tutorial is a little older, a one-player custom game), and so push the player to master much of a champion's difficulty curve without at all interacting with others. This is not a healthy way of learning to play a PvP game, and for a time was a core reason why Riot didn't want to release Practice Mode in the first place. In a game that already has a very high skill floor relative to most others, additional, extraneous difficulty is not something League really needs, and when it gets particularly severe (as is the case for Riven) it creates really big disconnects in quality of play across mastery, which itself leads to balancing difficulties.

Lost R3 votes

Riven's already a hot mess of old gameplay designs. I imagine she's on the chopping block in the near future.

She's pretty much the only problem when it comes to animation cancelling, largely because it feels like you're controlling a rabbit on an ice rink, and largely because she gains such a massive boost of power from doing it (a very disproportionate amount), and can do it multiple times in a row.

Euthenaasia2 votes

She should be, but she isn't.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Haven't you read what riot said about riven on reddit? She's balanced and fine because her mains mostly have 50% and lower WR on other champs showing that she needs soooo much skill to be successful that it's okay. Yup. Nice reasoning ikr. Fact is: Riven is broken and absolutely unfair to play against. If you played the game for some time you know exactly how much dmg which champ will deal to you at certain stages of the game or lane phase. Not riven. A good riven might burst you down level 2. A bad riven won't even kill you at lvl 6. You never know what the riven can do and what not and that is the absolute opposite of balance, clarity, player agency and what other buzzwords riot throws around when nerfing or changing champs.

La Bello1 votes

One of the most ANNOYING things for me is probably the sheer strength of her ultimate.

Not only is it a on demand DEAL 20% MORE DAMAGE for 15 seconds. but it gives Riven so much hidden all-in power because of how Windslash works.

Like if Riven ever gets a favorable trade against you she can just Pop R and take you out because her ult only requires that you be at on medium to low hp before it hits like a truck. I think a champions all in should be so much more transparent than that.

I think Riot needs to make Windslash damage scale with how many "Runic Blade " procs Riven has consumed since the ult activation and If Riven's gets 3 procs consumed **THEN **she gets her 20% AD bonus.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Exactly. Other champs who animation cancel at most do their combo a bit faster and that's it. MAYBE get an auto inbetween like jayce E animation cancel which is pretty wonky and buggy to do. Riven on the other hand straight up gets twice the damage if you cancel properly.

PopcornBunni3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lost R,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=I0nIdivx,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-09-08T17:13:10.647+0000)

Riven's already a hot mess of old gameplay designs. I imagine she's on the chopping block in the near future.

She's pretty much the only problem when it comes to animation cancelling, largely because it feels like you're controlling a rabbit on an ice rink, and largely because she gains such a massive boost of power from doing it (a very disproportionate amount), and can do it multiple times in a row.

Diana Shen LeeSin All have equal or better effects from animation cancelling with more to keep in mind with their resource management and changing attack speeds.

Tychusfindlay9181 votes

Darius would be kinda trash without his trademark AA > W > Q

If you take those anim cancels away on a champ that is already struggling, I'd expect buffs elsewhere for sure.

The AA W anim cancels in particular for darius are the only things that allow him to even hope to trade with champions like jax, I'm already seeing a couple matchups getting totally fucked with anim cancel removed.

ModWulf Helhammer2 votes

That's not an animation cancel, that's just an auto reset. Lots of characters can do that, even some items like Titanic Hydra

Tychusfindlay9181 votes

{quoted}

That's not an animation cancel, that's just an auto reset. Lots of characters can do that, even some items like Titanic Hydra

refer to my quote of gayfluffyunicorn

ModWulf Helhammer2 votes

I was referring to the AA>W part. That's not an animation cancel. You still do the full animation of both the AA and the W, it's just that you reset the timer between auto attacks. If you do it too soon, then the AA won't connect, and only the W will apply.

Sire Hippington1 votes

you still do the full animation of both the AA and the W

Not quite, the W overrides the backswing of the first AA, so it actually is proper animationcancleing aswell. Though it's still important to say that AA-resets are a sepperate mechanic and since prettymuch all and everything animation-cancles on AAs, Resets happen to do that aswell.

SilverScar071 votes

I would hope there would be buffs on any champ who gets an animation cancel removed. And an entire rebalancing on Riven.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

AA W isn't really an animation cancel? It's just an AA RESET. Like jax W. You still do the animation. Tho i don't know if Q afterwards cancels the W part.

Tychusfindlay9181 votes

{quoted}

AA W isn't really an animation cancel? It's just an AA RESET. Like jax W. You still do the animation. Tho i don't know if Q afterwards cancels the W part.

Fairly certain that an optimal use of an auto reset is in and of itself an animation cancel, and even if not, the W > Q is certainly an animation cancel and is key to success in matchups like jax, fiora, etc.

gabetheguy1 votes

yes. just lower the skillcap even more. wonderful.

AFilthyCaitMain1 votes

item 3070 Illaoi item 3070

Ahris1 votes

I agree. It should be consistent and have clarity. It is dumb when Renekton can burst you without being able to do anything because of animation cancel. It should all be removed from game as it is not something opposing players can do to outplay it.

PePsiLemoNN1 votes

haHAA , sure let's take away Riven's animation/basic attack canceling after she was balanced around it and make her THE worst champ in the game

Hellioning3 votes

So are we not allowed to change Riven's balance anymore after we remove the animation cancelling or anything?

YIMYIMZ1 votes

lol just eliminate all the skill from league and just make it won in the draft stage

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