Shen's awkward reworked gameplay design

Kudashuda··29 votes·2,278 views

Riot is capable of making great reworks, the outcome of Shen's rework is a rude example of when it turns out not so great.

Old Shen's mechanics were basic, but responsive and rewarding in terms of a good feeling within the gameplay flow, = fun. However, the rework introduced gimmicky mechanics intended for the champion to be more strategical, but they feel really clunky, having to micro-manage a spectral unit where W activates an avoidance zone, and the Q that doesn't feel good without attack speed. The new mechanics increases strategical depth, but at the cost of fun and how smooth the gameplay otherwise felt like. In a combat situation, utilizing an unsatisfying Q mechanic, in order to position a gimmick mechanic, in order to activate another unsatisfying W mechanic... As with where you combo Q and W, there's a bad delay with the travel time of the spectral sword mechanic, where the gameplay doesn't feel responsive at all, and if in vital moments that delay is the difference between dying or killing your opponent. Essentially you have to micro-manage a gimmick, that feels nothing more than a burden to the player. In comparison to the old Q and W abilities that responded instantly, and you feel you had control of your situation at all times.

You can make your gameplay as strategical and thoughtful as you want, but if in the end if they're not fun and the gameplay don't feel responsive, it's all for nought in terms of game design. Please Riot, swallow your pride and revert Shen, I've mained him since S2 and the rework broke my heart.

68 Comments

Cowgirl Ed12 votes

Already posted and read too much about Shen, I'll just say: rework is garbage, unfun to play as and against, and most importantly was not needed. Useless, unneeded and clunky sword mechanic that doesn't even fit thematically. Garbage stats, garbage rework, trash Riot's design team for fucking fuck's sake.

Edit: I'm so angry because he was my first champion loved both thematically and game-wise. Now I can't even play him anymore and if I do is just out of pure love for the champ.

DogshítPlayer4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kiss Kiss Kiss,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HzYayZwv,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-03-15T01:00:35.299+0000)

Already posted and read too much about Shen, I'll just say: rework is garbage, unfun to play as and against, and most importantly was not needed. Useless, unneeded and clunky sword mechanic that doesn't even fit thematically. Garbage stats, garbage rework, trash Riot's design team for fucking fuck's sake.

Edit: I'm so angry because he was my first champion loved both thematically and game-wise. Now I can't even play him anymore and if I do is just out of pure love for the champ.

THIS ^ THIS SO MUCH

DogshítPlayer1 votes

[{quoted}](name=VICIOUS VENUSAUR,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HzYayZwv,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-03-15T04:09:07.302+0000)

THIS ^ THIS SO MUCH

THIS IS HOW I FEEL ABOUT SINGED GANGPLANK AND KATARINA LIKE THE REWORKS HAVE BEEN JUST CANCER IMO

Arakadia7 votes

Gangplank and Katarina were great reworks.

OzX1 votes

I used to one trick Katarina and the rework killed her for me. She feels so slow and clunky to play compared to the old one, and at the same time she's so oppressive and doesn't get punished as hard for making a mistake due to several shunpos available on demand.

I'm not saying it's a bad rework, but I wouldn't call it great, it brought up as many problems as it fixed and it changed the champion so much that it pains me to even call her "Katarina". But well, I'm probably biased by my love for her former version.

Arakadia1 votes

She does not have several shunpos on demand. Q as a travel time, W has a delay, she has to get to the dagger, wait a few seconds, THAN she gets a shunpo.

She really isn't slow and clunky. You can button mash all at once under one second anymore, which slowed down her gameplay. But the burst and mobility feel is still very much there.

I think new Katarina does have some of its own issues however.

OzX1 votes

{quoted}

Q as a travel time, W has a delay, she has to get to the dagger, wait a few seconds

She really isn't slow

Hmm..

Arakadia1 votes

She is constantly moving. She just isn't the instant brain dead, targeted assassin she was before. She has a lot to do but she never slows down.

AccountaBilabudy2 votes

{quoted}

Gangplank and Katarina were great reworks.

False! GP may be better for LCS BIG PLAYZ now but he is not nearly as fun as he once was. I used to love GP support, which is now dead.

Let's take a look at terrible reworks/adjusted champions: Karma Shen Gangplank Tristana Zyra

"Meh" reworks/adjusted champions: Malzahar Ashe Akali Aatrox Taric Miss Fortune

Good reworks/adjusted champions: Galio Poppy Sion

Arakadia1 votes

Just because GP support used to be viable and no longer is doesn't mean the rework sucked. Is that really what makes you think the rework was bad?

Old Gangplank had no high moments, and was pretty god damn binary. The vast majority of his kit was unavoidable. He has so much more variation and potential, with good highs and lows, that he is not only healthier but fits in the game better.

You can't say he isn't as fun as before without some reasoning. Even than its just subjective.

Many of your rankings on the quality of reworks I disagree with. You also leave out a bunch of reworks that are far more important. Warwick, Yorick, Evelynn were all very well received.

New GP brought fucking amazing lore, tons of new amazing art, a new VO, a better theme, healthier gameplay, more interactive and interesting gameplay, etc.

OurLestrade9 votes

The only real issue I have with the Shen rework is that you need a LOT of stats to stop it from feeling clunky. AS, movespeed, CDR, the works.

Jerry SeinfeId7 votes

#BRING BACK VORPAL BLADE & KI-STRIKE

ChompyWulf6 votes

The Shen rework is a horrible concept because it copies one of the least interactive champs in the game : Singed.

As Singed, since so much of your power is in a poison trail, your options are to dive ahead into the enemy, or constantly retreat. Thanks to the Q, Shen is the same. You really need to make the sword travel through your target to deal decent damage. So you either have to dive behind him or let him push up. At least with Singed you can throw a slow area down and displace an enemy. With Shen, you can dive with your E, but unlike a slow and flip where you can strategically avoid aggro from turrets and creeps, you're going to get it as Shen. And blow too much energy in one go.

It's a horrible design idea.

Arakadia13 votes

Shen doesn't have the same problems of uninteractivity as Singed. That wasn't a good comparison.

3TWarrior3 votes

champ that has to run into or away from the opponent to deal maximum damage: check kit that deters chasing or dash engages: check horribly clunky feel to playing the champion because they couldn't work out a theme: check

Jerry SeinfeId2 votes

horribly clunky feel to playing the champion because they couldn't work out a theme: check

what are you talking about, Singed doesn't feel clunky at all.

Z3Sleeper9 votes

This is why Taric and Kayle are essentially the same champion

Self/Ally heal? Check Auto attack enhancers? Check Invulnerability ultimates? Check

What a fair comparison.

MuffledGarbage5 votes

all champs would be the same then tho...

Champ that does damage: check

Champ that has a QWER: check

Champ that has a passive: check

????

ampheon5 votes

Ivern has no passive on ARAM [slayer-jinx-wink]

MuffledGarbage1 votes

I have been bamboozled

toastMonkey2 votes

I can agree that Shen and Singed both rely on something apart from themselves to do damage.

I disagree on the overall playstyle comparison. Shen engages hard to do damage with his Q and E. Singed mostly disengages - using his proximity and the poison trail to do the damage. Even his flip and sticky spot help with that.

If you overall point was that Shen depending on an external tool (like Singed ) to effectively implement his kit, then yeah - that's the part about the Shen rework that feels bad.

ChompyWulf2 votes

While Singed most often relies on disengage and a cloud of poison to discourage engages, he can just as easily hard engage and force a battle. Similarly Shen might most often hard engage with a dash, he can easily choose or as often be forced to play a disengage game of cat and mouse.

The difference is Singed is strong disengaged and feels bad to play against. Shen just feels bad period.

toastMonkey3 votes

Agreed on your main point that Shen feels bad period with his reliance on his spirit blade and mini mechanics.

I was merely trying to distinguish between how their kits are designed to do damage. Shen typically by engaging onto the enemy and Singed typically by using his poison with controlled proximity.

You are correct that there is more variety in playstyle with each and good players/mains will learn to take advantage of both styles.

Again, I agree with your main point wholeheartedly regarding Shen. The spirit blade and mini mechanics feel gimmicky and mini-gameish and altogether frustrating.

Hammermancer5 votes

old shen was fun to play, new shen is like "Can I press E now? How about now? Ok its off cd" Presses e Ok time to stand and auto attack while I wait for my e to come back up"

LSmaster161 votes

If the only way you ever get your empowered q off with Shen is after using e then I see why you aren't enjoying the rework.

Hammermancer2 votes

{quoted}

If the only way you ever get your empowered q off with Shen is after using e then I see why you aren't enjoying the rework.

nah I just feel like the new q is and feels too weak for how much i gotta do for it

i was a shen main pre-rework and put him down because I played a more sustain tank oriented version with a botrk and a devorerer

the shen i like doesn't exist anymore because they wanted cookiecutter tank shen who has to jump into an enemy team with no escape

I don't like that

Ralanr5 votes

Honestly I’m probably in the minority here, but I didn’t like old Shen’s gameplay pattern.

It was basically range last hit with Q to farm or maybe heal up under tower. Shen didn’t have to interact with his opponent after all. It wasn’t fun to play as of fun to fight against.

Kudashuda1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I’m probably in the minority here, but I didn’t like old Shen’s gameplay pattern.

It was basically range last hit with Q to farm or maybe heal up under tower. Shen didn’t have to interact with his opponent after all. It wasn’t fun to play as of fun to fight against.

You seem ignorant about the champion. The ranged Q enabled him to last hit in lanes that would otherwise push him into the tower, in that he could keep up better instead of flopping completely with his new Melee Q if he falls behind in lane, becoming completely irrelevant. And as if other champions don't have such ranged abilities that are utilized for last-hitting.

What do you mean by interaction, any form of combat is an interaction, be it trading, poking, or otherwise. You have no argument, unless you're talking about whether the gameplay is engaging or not, which again is determined by responsiveness, fun mechanics that feels rewarding, and the champion fantasy of a tank ninja. He was simple and fun to play, but now while there's more strategical depth, his gameplay is clunky and dull due to shallow gimmicky mechanics.

Ralanr5 votes

When I consider interaction, I mean directly interacting with your opponent instead of just surviving your opponent and otherwise ignoring them.

Your argument for Shen’s old Q is actually a problem, it didn’t really allow him to be punished that hard, making him snowball the lane without falling too far behind. At least with Sion E, he’s also trying to hit his enemy with it while using it to CS. It’s interactive. Shen’s old Q wasn’t, it just let him get away with not actually fighting his opponent.

This is what the new Q tried to accomplish, forcing Shen to need to trade to get the most out of his kit or to even gain the freedom to farm. They wanted Shen to be more of a dueling tank.

Now I’m not going to say new Shen is great. He’s got his own problems (and his ult is still a major problem) but at least now he has to fight, trade, and potentially lose the lane instead of just not letting his opponents win.

Kudashuda1 votes

Well, again, every champion interacts with each other in different ways, be it as you state surviving or otherwise, it's all dependent on the champion, and your opponent's champion and their unique playstyles, so again there's not much for discussion you're bringing.

Sion's Q although has to be channeled, has decent range and good damage, and that's an AoE compared to old Shen's low damage Q with a short range. So even your example is bad for your argument.

Yeah, give a dueling tank a slow superficial Melee Q that only grants additional % damage on your next three melee hits, that's the entire mechanic. That's some solid design, lol. Whereas with the old Q you could actually trade. They didn't accomplish anything other than making Shen more vulnerable to ranged champions, and makes him irrelevant for the rest of the game if he's forced to farm under his turret.

Wow, again you're further ruining the merits of your own argument. Because he's now entirely forced into melee, he's a lot more prone to being harassed and pushed into his turret, does not trade at all anymore with the loss of the ranged Q, and turtles the entire laning phase to survive a game where he's played like a handicap compared to ranged champions and even tanks with ranged abilities.

Ralanr4 votes
  1. I said Sion’s E, not Q.

  2. You are ignoring the slow mechanic based on the return of his sword for Shen.

It’s a lot healthier for him to actually be able to lose lane than before where he could sustain hard enough to stonewall it completely.

Meep Man4 votes

Shen was a literal brickwall before his rework that never left lane. I prefer New Shen to that.

lolibus3 votes

I can tell they wanted to shove him into the support position cuz of his W

Sõna2 votes

His W is the worst skill in his kits, rely heavily on his skill Q , Positioning, long CD. Once missed it, it's fucked up.

Acheron163 votes

Shen - Bad ass ninja tank, who you expect to be swift, dash into battle while using shields and parries to fight enemies and peotect allies

Actual gameplay - has to take care of a dog (the fucking sword) that doesn't like him and takes variable ammounts of time to respond to his orders.

Seriously, Shen's sword gimmick is something I would've expected from someone like Zoe, dragging a leash dog around, not Shen.

MooooooooreDakka3 votes

I actually love the rework though it feels bad in matchups where you can't get close to the target. Now Shen actually wants to and can interact with his lane opponent in the early game instead of wanting to sit back and farm. With the old kit, your q and w felt kind of worthless and if you beat someone is was basically just by stat-checking them, with the new one using the spirit blade creatively feels great and spirits refuge is way more impactful than feint. The only part that really seems clunky to me are the delay on getting the shield with q and e. Also, it's not the most practical build for every game but building wit's end, frozen mallet, and tabi for your first few items feels really good when you can get away with it because the attack speed and mr reduction helps q a lot and the slow on auto's lets you keep getting the q pulls off and prevent escape.

Akenero2 votes

with shen, you have 2 main options in lane, either go aggressive, keeping your spirit sword in the middle of the lane, and pulling it through if the opponent missteps, or taunting them and pulling it through them, attacking three times, and backing off. If you're going for a kill, you want to walk with them, and pull the sword again, and keep hitting them. Repeat until they die. Your other option is to play at tower, leaving sword in the lane, closer to their tower, and pulling it through when they get within range of turret, otherwise you're just gonna clear waves and make them lose minions. Going aggressive here is easier if they step too close, as taunt and sword pull will lead to at least a tower shot and 3 autos that do max % HP damage, along with a slow when walking away from you.

Shen isn't very easy, that's the point, he's difficult to play, at least in terms of tanks. He's got some depth, and, compared to what he used to be, it feels bad. I'm not gonna lie, it's super counter-intuitive to go aggressive when you do so little damage on autos, but empowered autos are won trades if you're even, and more often than not, your w will only block one attack from the opponent, and feels absolutely useless since it's got such a high CD and a set length of time that it's even up. 2 seconds flat.

Dameshi2 votes

Shen used to be one of, if not my favorite top lane champ. I refuse to play him since the rework. The spirit sword is, in my eyes, a gimmick for the sake of having a gimmick. The kit was deemed "too simple" so they add the ridiculous sword for "depth". Don't feel any real depth was added, just tugging on a leash to achieve anything.

I also really dislike his auto attack animations. I know this seems a minor gripe, but his old animations were great especially Ki Strike. Now they feel incredibly clunky. Why have two swords if you only use the one?

MasterDClone1 votes

he does use both sword one is his ionian steel which is his base auto is and his spirit blade is his other sword. I honetly prefer the new q because of the interaction with w and the dueling potential

HollowMimic2 votes

"You can make your gameplay as strategical and thoughtful as you want, but if in the end if they're not fun and the gameplay don't feel responsive, it's all for nought in terms of game design."

-TLDR, What should everyone keep, a true fact that applies in all games; this is a game, never forget it.

Jeedos2 votes

It feels really awkward and bad if you miss your taunt, you have no impact, and your Q deals 0 damage thanks to lcs nerfs, attacks really slow and you can't chase people at all.

TyroneWatermelon2 votes

It feels really awkward and bad if you miss your taunt, you have no impact, and your Q deals 0 damage thanks to lcs nerfs, attacks really slow and you can't chase people at all.

Raoul2 votes

I miss his old Q so much...

FakeGravity2 votes

im ok with the Q mechanic, but W just feels terrible, it have that upside feeling that you could potencially let your carries be inmune to the enemy ADC but by no mean ever you get to use it that way because you want to taunt then Q so the sword pass throw then use your W to keep dodging damage as a tank maybe if you have more control over the sword instead of "you where here so lets move the sword here" or if W was a completely different skill?

novac37212 votes

I was never the best shen, but I played him pre-rework. I think a lot of why shen feels clunky is that, for one thing, Most champs have begun moving away from auto-attack kits. Barring ADCs, most champions will use abilities with a few autos between. Darius Gangplank Illaoi even Renekton just to name a few. Not to say there are no autos in top lane, but it's circumstantial. Now best case, you taunt and they are forced to AA you, and you negate that damage. well that means you had to land the taunt. which is fine, but AAs aren't the main damage source. So the protection zone isn't needed in the first place. Old shen had a shield, which was a guaranteed damage mitigation vs all sources.

Its useful to protect the team in teamfights, but the zone follows the sword, which you have to pull through people to be able to hurt them. So doing that isn't that viable. Not to mention you'd want to shield your team from the ADC, but if you shield them, you probably die to the ADC. n if they're in range of the ADC they're probably dead then the zone disappears anyways.

Other than that, as people have said, the sword is a gimmick.

just to compare to Poppy : She also has

  • a situational AoE protection zone
  • CC thats good to engage but not too good to retreat
  • a ''my teammate won't die'' button

So why was she a good rework while shen is not?

  1. she has tank abilities that help her live longer without needing items to function
  2. positioning = POWER, instead of positioning being required to function on a basic level
  3. Low CDs
  4. ranged attack to poke or CS

Basically, Shen's problems are due to current champion design as well as the skill to reward ratio.

Not saying it would fix everything, but making the sword rejoin on its own CD in addition to using Q would help not feel useless because the opponent decided not to stand where you wanted. Maybe make the protection zone grant a spellshield too? Idk how to fix it but rn its just too circumstantial.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

how would u suggest they make it better?

3TWarrior2 votes

for starters, they could have not rushed his release and actually listened to the playerbase. His kit looks very good on paper, but in reality, there is too much risk for not enough reward

His only ranged attack also became a gimmick. Personally, I didn't play him enough to really weigh in on his lore or theme.

FlameHalbrdOkido2 votes

{quoted}

for starters, they could have not rushed his release and actually listened to the playerbase. His kit looks very good on paper, but in reality, there is too much risk for not enough reward

His only ranged attack also became a gimmick. Personally, I didn't play him enough to really weigh in on his lore or theme.

i feel like his W would be better if it followed him once he walked in its range, i don't feel like he needs a ranged attack as a tank tho, yeah it might be a gimmick tho

additionally once thing that could help with the travel time issue is having Q's travel work like Sion's ult or Rek'sai's old ult where no matter what the distance is it always takes the same amount of time for the object to reach its destination. For Shen that probably need to be adapted tho, cause in the cases where its really far away waiting for it to come when u need W can really hurt and I don't think that they took that into consideration.

If the sword is further than 1200 units away it should take about a sec to reach him, and any nearer it should act like a normal skillshot, but honestly i don't know why they gave it such a long tether anyways that blinks a bit closer in intervals when it reaches max range, like that range is MASSIVE and under most circumstance you won't make use of it in an orthodox way unless u wanna leash ur jg for a camp for ONE ability at massive range.

And u know what just kinda ticked me off? Actually Shen's W is really underwhelming when you consider the fact that its so short but also Yasuo has a similar ability and it blocks ALL ranged attacks not just AA's and its up for 3.75 sec whats up with that? Thats some bias in my opinion, Shen's AA blocker should be up for at least 2.75 if not 3.75 because while it does block AA on all sides it doesn't block any abilities it has the weakness of leaving the allies sitting ducks for abilities if they stay in the radius, and they can get knocked out of the radius by ranged CC abilities, the AoE could also be a bit bigger 3 allies should be able to EASILY fit inside and move a bit to dodge skillshots, whats its radius now? like 250? It would also be neat if it stopped Allies from being displaced by enemy CC like pulls, and airborne effects.

His old abilites were not that gud espcially for a champ that wants to support allies on the side. Q was bad because unit targeted and had little interaction between him and enemy laners, it also didn't make since for a champion who is all about getting up in the enemies face and tanking dmg. Shen wants to get into the back line and mess stuff up hows a single target ranged attack benefit him? W was bad because it only shielded him he was all point and click except his dash which doesn't matter because as dash it hardly matters how you aim it it will still be relatively useful

yes the rework failed, and its clunky but the old version isn't really better for the games health.

But the last thing you gotta keep in mind is that his Ult is SOOO powerful that they have keep his kit on the weaker side to compensate, so if he feels clunky until he gets enough items for him to run more smoothly then thats what the trade off is guys, i can live with how the Q works if they give it some QoL updates, but W does need a buff in more ways than one. 1.75 sec is just 2 short. The duration should go up with rank.

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