Boards›Gameplay

Why talon is harder to play than zed.

Ouroborous HD·3/3/2015, 3:08:58 PM·12 votes·4,465 views

So I was playing talon last night and we were winning by a fairly large margin. Now in game i turn off all chat so i can concentrate on what im doing. in the post game lobby i got accused by three of the enemy team of being a "bronze 5 scrub who cant win unless he plays champions that are easier than zed." this is actually kinda offensive because talon does actually require a certain level of skill that zed does not.

Talon's lane harass has a long cd and very low range. Whereas zed can hit you from halfway down lane every 5 seconds or so. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Talon uses mana thereby making his harass limited if he wants to stay in lane longer than 2 minutes. Zed, though, uses energy which may as well be the new resourceless. so zed will always be able to trade when talon or any other mana champ is low on the mana. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Zed can jump into the enemy team's backline, blow up his targt, then teleport back into his backline before you can kill him or even hurt him. Talon on the other hand pretty much has to commit when he goes in since he has no extra mobility outside his E and R. Also before you think that you can just get away using his R i say to you

So tl:dr zed can do what talon does better and more safely and with no cost to himself if he is playing right.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

35 Comments

Serevas3/3/2015, 3:52:05 PM7 votes

A lot of people think that Talon is super easy because when he's ahead he can instantly blow up squishy targets with very little counter play, now I would say to you that is kind of the point of an assassin, and that you're right on all fronts.

To be honest, the only real advantage that Talon has over Zed is that he's able to apply AoE damage through his R and W, and the burst is a bit less telegraphed. Zed runs on energy which is a natural advantage, and additionally has his escape which you mentioned, where typically, The only "escape" Talon has, is to ult away, or to kill everyone.

Jefftiffy3/3/2015, 5:03:08 PM4 votes

Except you forgot one thing. Talon scales better than Zed and has much better team fight.

Talon

Mercy Talon's autoattacks deal 10% additional damage to any target that is slowed, stunned, immobilized or suppressed.

Noxian Diplomacy COST: 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60 MANA COOLDOWN: 8 / 7 / 6 / 5 / 4 TOTAL PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 40 / 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 (+ 130% bonus AD)

Rake RANGE: 600 COST: 60 / 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 MANA COOLDOWN: 10 TOTAL PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 60 / 110 / 160 / 210 / 260 (+ 120% bonus AD) SLOW: 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40%

Cutthroat RANGE: 700 COST: 35 / 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 MANA COOLDOWN: 18 / 16 / 14 / 12 / 10 DAMAGE AMPLIFICATION: 3 / 6 / 9 / 12 / 15%

Shadow Assault COST: 80 / 90 / 100 MANA COOLDOWN: 75 / 65 / 55 TOTAL PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 240 / 340 / 440 (+ 150% bonus AD)

Contempt for the Weak ON-TARGET COOLDOWN: 10 Zed's basic attacks against targets below 50% health deal 6 / 8 / 10% of the target's maximum health as bonus magic damage.

Zed

Contempt for the Weak ON-TARGET COOLDOWN: 10 Zed's basic attacks against targets below 50% health deal 6 / 8 / 10% of the target's maximum health as bonus magic damage.

Razor Shuriken RANGE: 900 COST: 75 / 70 / 65 / 60 / 55 ENERGY COOLDOWN: 6 PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 75 / 115 / 155 / 195 / 235 (+ 100% bonus AD) MIMICKED SHURIKEN: 37.5 / 57.5 / 77.5 / 97.5 / 117.5 (+ 50% bonus AD)

Living Shadow RANGE: 550 COST: 40 / 35 / 30 / 25 / 20 ENERGY COOLDOWN: 18 / 17 / 16 / 15 / 14 BONUS ATTACK DAMAGE: 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25% Bonus AD ENERGY RESTORED: 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40

Shadow Slash RANGE: 290 COST: 50 ENERGY COOLDOWN: 4 PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 / 180 (+ 80% bonus AD) SLOW: 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40% OVERLAPPING SLOW: 30 / 37.5 / 45 / 52.5 / 60%

Death Mark RANGE: 625 COOLDOWN: 120 / 100 / 80 PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 100% AD + 20 / 35 / 50% of damage dealt

CONCLUSION Every single one of his scalings is higher and on a comparable CD to Zed's while having high AoE damage that even exceeds Zed's that is much easier to hit and slows. I would argue the problem is mana regen has been gutted, because people were just complaining about Talon until preseason started up when mana regen was gutted. Now, mana only is a gate for Talon early game, so his late game is still insane he just actually suffers from the terrible early game caused by lack of mana.

Edit: accidentally left out Zed's passive

Raja Chachki3/3/2015, 3:09:28 PM2 votes

ok

AkabaneKun3/3/2015, 8:34:00 PM2 votes

Since safety and mobility are the 2 key elements in this game we can't even compare talon to zed, talon only safety mechanism is his ulty, zed is pretty much safe all game if he doesn't miss use his W and past 6 if that fails he can just abuse R bs, both can burst ppl down instantly but talon does it faster and brings more aoe to the team no doubt, but zed brings better poke/safety and better mobility to roam. Oh and zed actually has a decent passive, talon is kinda of a joke.

Ironically talon destroys zed 1v1.

ApexInTheCircle3/4/2015, 2:36:27 AM2 votes

Talon has to commit to a kill or botch it and die or barely escape.

Zed can go in for a kill botch it press R and laugh as he runs off and W's away to get a huge distance on your whole team.

Sooko3/4/2015, 6:32:57 PM2 votes

Imagine comparing playing an immobile skillshot reliant mana intensive champion vs playing Zed... Urgot Strugglez

9kPluzZ3/3/2015, 5:56:42 PM1 votes

Hahahaha Talon has like one combo! how is he harder than zed who has like 8 and actualy relies on good positioning?

KaisadiIIa3/3/2015, 7:51:44 PM1 votes

Talon is an easy to play, hard to master champion. Meanwhile Zed is a hard to play, easy to master one.

If you have played Talon and Zed 5 times, you might think that Talon is not that hard and Zed requires too much skill. But if you have played them 100 times you'll know that it's far more easy to be a really good Zed than it is to be a really good Talon. I mained Zed for a whole year and I main Talon, and I can tell you that.

Btw it's true that Zed is just an overpowered version of Talon.

TomA3X3/3/2015, 8:00:33 PM1 votes

It's actually more like every 20 seconds, more than that at level 1. If you can't take advantage of a 20 second window, I suggest practising in a custom. Also, his combo is very easy to see coming, talon can blink on top of you to trade.
The drawback to energy is you have such a small pool. After Zed has used a WQE combo, he's almost completely out of Energy and vulnerable for a time. This makes it difficult to fight for more than 5 - 10 seconds or so, as you will run out of energy.Talon, and other champions are limited by cooldowns only, until they run out of mana. This is something else you can take advantage of.
That's what Zed does, that's his only purpose. Imagine for one minute, he gets CC'd, someone uses a Zonyas. Thats it, his killing potential is gone. Talon has strong AOE on most of his abilities, with strong single target damage, if Talon fails to assassinate 1 person, he still has value from his abilities in a teamfight.

If you say to me Pink Ward. I say to you: Zonyas, QSS, any form of CC, even Shadow camping.

The points you gave are all double sided coins, each champion has their advantages and disadvantages. With that said, The reason many people would say Zed has a higher skillcap, is Energy is a harder resource to manage in long fights, and Zed's abilities are all Skillshots, with the exception of his ultimate.

forist3/4/2015, 2:30:08 AM1 votes

Because talon's kit is much worse. He may have the raw numbers, but all the ad in the world doesn't mean shit unless you have reliable damage output to go along with it. Zed has plenty of reliable damage, talon has situational damage, ie: this guy's out of position, okay now I can finally be useful.

FDS Desperado3/3/2015, 4:42:54 PM1 votes

I agree but disagree.

Talon's kit is easier to play and learn because its more simple.

That doesn't mean he is easier to play. Like you said, what makes it difficult is that in a team fight it can be very hard to get a kill and survive the experience. Zed has a button for that.

Either way the people talking shit on you were smoking crack.

ForgiveColour3/3/2015, 4:32:02 PM1 votes

um no talon is easy to play. Just survive till your first back for pickaxe/2 longsword and you have have no problem csing/roaming/bursting your enemy. Talon is more reliable than zed rofl im starting to pick him up again

B3ER3/3/2015, 5:51:35 PM1 votes

There are some things from Talon that are easier and more reliable, such as his kill conditions and associated play patterns. Everything else, not so much.