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A more flexible idea for Sylas' ult

Arx77··13 votes·9,544 views

Good day!

Like many people I've been looking at Sylas and thinking about his kit. Now I don't think that we should already complain about his numbers being too high while he's still in the pbe, though I wanted to make a suggestion about his new ultimate.

The thing is: I have been looking forward for a hero like this to be introduced into League for years, seeing as Rubick was my favorite character to have ever existed in any kind of MOBA. So now my question is... why can Sylas only steal ults? The thing about Rubick that makes him so much fun to play is the fact that he can copy the last spell your enemy used and not just your ultimate. Why doesn't Sylas work like that? It would come with several advantages:

Firstly, it would allow his enemies some counterplay, which would make it so much less frustrating to play against him

Secondly, he would be able to steal a wider variety of spells, allowing him to be so much more flexible and interesting to play

Thirdly, and maybe most importantly, it would make him feel SO MUCH BETTER! It would be so incredibly satisfying when you finally manage to steal the ult you wanted. It would require timing and skill and positioning to get what you want. Additionally the whole theme would be so much more interesting. He would actually feel like a spell slining mage who throws his enemies' spells back at them because he has to wait for them to actually cast them. Now it's basically just "Oh I guess I'll take this now" without any interaction between the champions.

Of course these changes would need the casttime of the ult to be low, and probably the cooldown early would have to be adjusted and the individual cooldown per enemy removed, but other than that I can't help but feel that this change would make him better to play in so many aspects?

What do you think? Did I not consider something? I'd really love to hear a reason why this wouldn't be a good idea.

Have a great day! Arx77

26 Comments

Fízz v26 votes

Idk but in terms of playing Sylas, I think I prefer his current ult tbh. being able to steal everything would make him a lot harder to balance and weirder to play

Arx772 votes

Harder to play? yeah probably. Weirder to play? I think it would be harder to get used to yes.

But more rewarding to play? I really believe so, both for him and his enemies. But I'm biased, I admit. Though I don't think he would be harder to balance. The average strength of spells for him would be lower than for his enemies, who have the necessary kit, so he at least wouldn't be overpowered. But the average strength of spells would be pretty decent, making it quite possible to balance him in the end. Though I'm no expert, just putting an idea out here.

Snarf of thunder3 votes

Well even if it was a great idea, what makes you think riot will even pay attention to this? They do their own things, communitys are just for players to describe the anger for riots incompetence.

Arx772 votes

I agree to a certain degree.

It's true that Riot's engagement in these threads is not as high as many would like it to be, but honestly the negativity and level of complaint is often times so high that a normal discussion isn't very likely, so I can understand that they don't want to engage with comments that sound like "OMG Riot you r%%%%%s you don't care Sylas is op pls nerf you fucking useless company!"

I don't expect things to change, but I would still like to talk about it. I have thought about how this could work, and I feel like it's quite possible, maybe even easier to balance than if he could only steal ultimates. I'm not angry, it's just not the thing I expected.

lollordFrozen3 votes

How about we stuff Rubik into a teddy bear suit and smuggle him into league!

Sire Hippington2 votes

I think that would be a great idea and a potential way to balance him. Right now, with free choice between 5 ults, he will be broken unless his base kit sucks, in which case he will feel bad to play. There are many Insane ults that get baalnced by a medicore base kit, if you can acces them easily without paying for it with the rest of you're kit, it's absurd. Haveing the rubik mechanic would mean you#re opponents have more controll over when you can acces their ult and by quickly casting another spell afterwards they cand deny it to you, makeing it not as free to get you're hands on powerfull ults.

Arx771 votes

Thanks! I'm glad you agree!

My concern was really mostly the fact that he could choose between ultimates freely and whenever he felt like it.

Though for me it's not even the balance aspect that's the most important one. I just feel like it would be so none-interactive. His ult is a point-and-click ability, and I 100% agree with that decision, but I feel like that makes it so bad to play against, especially since you don't even need your ult for him to steal it. On the other hand, if he stole the last spell used then there would be this interaction, forcing people to immediately use other spells after using their ult. On the other hand, it would allow for mind games in lane.

For example: Let's say he's toplane, fighting against Jax. Do you really want to give him the counter strike? Probably not. On the other hand, his leapstrike would make him more mobile and maybe threaten a quick trade where he could use it to leap out.

Or midlane against for example a Lux. If Lux uses her ult and is close enough, then Sylas will almost always manage to copy it since she has quite the high cast time, so she might want to be careful that it really leads to a killing blow.

Or a Malzahar. Now it doesn't matter who he casts his ult on since Sylas will always be able to take his ult. With these changes Sylas would only be able to copy the ult if Malzahar didn’t ult him, so now Malzahar has to decide whether he uses his ult on the adc and lets his ult get taken, whether he uses it on Sylas or whether he waits until Sylas copies something else before using his ult on the adc, now not letting it get copied.

I'm getting of track, but I just wanted to express the potential I see in this.

MarkedOfKane1 votes

The ult is a disappointing imo. I always liked the character style where they use chains or shackles that tied them up to fight, which is what most of hit kit is until his ult which is "He steals the ult lol". It seems like the whole point of it was "Dude, wouldn't it be crazy and shocking to people if there was a character that copies other peoples ultimates? That would be so sick!"

Arx771 votes

I wholeheartedly agree with your point about his ultimate.

That's why I think it would be much more fun if he could steal everything, not just ults. The way he is now it really seems like it was just made to be "flashy" and "oh look he can steal ultimates HOW CRAZY IS THAT?!!!" But if he could steal everything it would make him much more interesting and flexible. And he could still steal ultimates, it would just be harder and less frequent, making it something that would actually be flashy and crazy.

Ionian Vulpix1 votes

It'd probably make him really bad. He doesn't have an ultimate himself, so unless he steals an ability that is just as strong or game-changing as an ultimate, and the only one I can think of is Blitz Q, or their ultimate is completely useless to him (Illaoi, Zoe) in which case he shouldn't even bother with theirs, he's better off taking the ultimate anyway.

Sure, there would be some good uses (Zoe Q or E, Blitz Q, Gragas E) but it'd just be way too much to load into one character.

Arx771 votes

I disagree.

He would be too bad in the state he's in now (With his ult having a high base cooldown early and in addition to that the individual cooldown per champion.) Those things should be removed. But then he would not be worse than other champions.

The reason for that is his flexibility. Yes, he does not have an ult himself but if he players well (again, with the cooldown per champion removed) he could use multiple ults in one fight without having to worry about the cooldown.

Now there's one thing that maybe should be changed, namely the one-time use. If the spell he steals is only a one time use then it would be pretty bad, but if you, say, do it like with Zoey where he has one button reserved that would then cast his stolen ultimate, then you could make use of more low cdr things. I have thought of other options, but they aren't as functional.

3TWarrior1 votes

I had an alternative idea. They should change it to be where he steals champion's Q abilities. They're still powerful, but WAY easier to balance and justify

morgana Q, blitzcrank Q, thresh Q, lee sin Q, all powerful, but not game breaking

Arx771 votes

I just feel like that would limit him again and not really change anything compared to how he works now, with the only difference being that he steals Q's and not ultimates. Additionally many Q abilities work similarly, and although that would be easier to balance it would also make him even less flexible than he is now (Seeing as there are many ults that are quite different compared to other abilities, even though there are also many that are mediocre when it comes to excitement.)

Over all I agree that it would be easier to balance, but I still don't think it would be a better Idea than the one I would propose or the one that is in play now.

The Highest Noon1 votes

My idea is for Sylas to have to receive ult attack for him to be able to use it, say that if his ult is off cooldown, he takes % less affect from enemy ultimates but can recast them himself.

Biscuit Bite1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Highest Noon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HqEXcJlw,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-01-13T03:37:49.794+0000)

My idea is for Sylas to have to receive ult attack for him to be able to use it, say that if his ult is off cooldown, he takes % less affect from enemy ultimates but can recast them himself.

This guy downvotes stuff! Warning!

KFCeytron1 votes

Sylas players will feel a sense of pride and accomplishment from stealing a good spell.

Memes aside, Sylas's ult is already orders of magnitude too flexible, and it'll make him unbalanceable.

Arx771 votes

Again I don't really think that will be the case. If you look at the average strength of all the 20 spells in a match that he'd be able to copy you can draw a pretty good meridian across most, if not all possible champion combinations. Balancing Sylas' numbers around that should be pretty doable (After all that's what the PBE is for.)

Such a concept has been done before. Not only that but it has been a hugely successful balancing act. I can't help but think that restricting him to ultimates will make it actually harder to balance him. After all there will be games where he is just gross while there will be games where he can't do too much at all. If he could copy anything then this discrepancy would be much less noticeable

KFCeytron1 votes

{quoted}

Again I don't really think that will be the case. If you look at the average strength of all the 20 spells in a match that he'd be able to copy you can draw a pretty good meridian across most, if not all possible champion combinations. Balancing Sylas' numbers around that should be pretty doable (After all that's what the PBE is for.)

Such a concept has been done before. Not only that but it has been a hugely successful balancing act. I can't help but think that restricting him to ultimates will make it actually harder to balance him. After all there will be games where he is just gross while there will be games where he can't do too much at all. If he could copy anything then this discrepancy would be much less noticeable

No, the PBE is for bug testing and skin feedback. Balance is not one of the purposes of the PBE (Riot says the PBE population is too small for that).

LoL has had a concept of stealing some kind of spells - specifically, Summoner Spells, with Zoe, and that champion is a trainwreck that Riot released specifically because she makes hate the game and this somehow makes them more addicted to it. Stealing ults at will is going to be literally impossible to balance. Can you imagine if Ez's ult was 200 units wide one match, and then 500 units wide the next? Inconsistent; unreliable. Sylas takes that to 11. LoL is not DotA, and Sylas is a terrible idea, but he'll be released anyway, just like Zoe, the Akali rework, original Aatrox, and every other loony idea Riot comes up with.

Arx771 votes

The point of my idea is partially to bring consistency into inconsistency, by giving so many options that the average outcome is still consistent. Let me explain using your example.

I agree, if Ez's ult had a random with between 200 and 500 each game then it would make for a quite inconsistent hero. That's the way Sylas operates now (more or less at least). By increasing the possible pool of spells and making it more interactive you influence the randomness. If we take your example it would mean that Ez had a random with on his ult every cast instead of every game, still making it inconsistent but taken all casts throughout one game into consideration you'd have a very similar experience each game. If you add to that the fact that extremely good spells (In your example the maximum and minimum widths respectively) are extremely rare you'd have an even more consistent experience. That's the idea behind my suggestion.

I hope you could follow my slightly complicated explanation.

ps. I would love to talk about Zoey or other champions, but I believe that it doesn't belong here. And sorry for my misunderstanding of the PBE. I didn't consider the population.

KFCeytron1 votes

{quoted}

The point of my idea is partially to bring consistency into inconsistency, by giving so many options that the average outcome is still consistent. Let me explain using your example.

I agree, if Ez's ult had a random with between 200 and 500 each game then it would make for a quite inconsistent hero. That's the way Sylas operates now (more or less at least). By increasing the possible pool of spells and making it more interactive you influence the randomness. If we take your example it would mean that Ez had a random with on his ult every cast instead of every game, still making it inconsistent but taken all casts throughout one game into consideration you'd have a very similar experience each game. If you add to that the fact that extremely good spells (In your example the maximum and minimum widths respectively) are extremely rare you'd have an even more consistent experience. That's the idea behind my suggestion.

I hope you could follow my slightly complicated explanation.

ps. I would love to talk about Zoey or other champions, but I believe that it doesn't belong here. And sorry for my misunderstanding of the PBE. I didn't consider the population.

He would be less likely to steal powerful spells if he just stole whatever was last used, like Rubick does, but it would still introduce a ton of variables, and I still don't think it's remotely healthy for the game (this idea in particular or Sylas in general).

Arx771 votes

Okay. I see your point and I can't argue with it since we just have different opinions on a basic question (Should a hero like Sylas exist in the first place.) I don't think the problem would be all that huge. But again, no point I could make would be convincing enough and there's no reason to do so either. I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

KFCeytron1 votes

{quoted}

Okay. I see your point and I can't argue with it since we just have different opinions on a basic question (Should a hero like Sylas exist in the first place.) I don't think the problem would be all that huge. But again, no point I could make would be convincing enough and there's no reason to do so either. I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

I guess so. We'll see how Sylas turns out in real play in the coming weeks/months.

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

that just seems like a hassle to deal with.

Arx771 votes

More of a hassle than him always getting your ult without you having any control over it?

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

if you can't even deal with your own ult then you probably can't play your champ anyway.

anyway this would have the same problems, more stuff for sylas to keep in mind and more stuff for the people playing vs sylas to keep in mind.

the way it works now i can't make him get let's say something like blitz knockup instead of ult, but i also don't need to keep my hook incase he goes for the steal.

Arx771 votes

But would it really be such a bad thing to have to keep in mind things like that? I mean yes it would be more complicated but I don't see it as a bad thing really.

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