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How I think a Diana rework should look like [crosspost from GD]

Crimson Mutt··3 votes·1,143 views

I made this thread before but i updated it and basically reposting it for more exposure and feedback. Keep your feedback specific so i know where you disagree.

Let's help the moon lady. I'd like to drastically change her kit while making her play-patterns similar to live. I went for a bruiser-like pattern, focusing on sustained damage rather than burst, and giving her strong AoE CC and increasing her mobility in teamfight scenarios. I did that because as an assassin, i don't think she will ever overshadow Akali who does everything Diana does as an assassin, but better. All of Diana's unique aspects are better suited on a bruiser (aoe CC, shield, onhit damage).

Additionally, i want to make more interaction with the Moonlight debuff.

Keep in mind, I specifically kept the rework with as little numbers as possible, because this is about the design aspect, not the balance aspect of her kit.

Without further ado, let's go.

Passive - Moonsilver Blade

Every third attack against the same target, Diana cleaves targets around her, dealing magic damage to all of them. Targets who have been affected by Moonlight receive additional damage based on their (current health/max health/flat damage - i prefer %current hp) and are applied the Moonlight debuff again for 3 seconds. Diana also has additional attack speed.

Now, this is new. This locks some of her power into her Moonlight debuff. You may be thinking that since her QR removes all Moonlight debuffs, she may never have access to it. Read on. If there is more than 3 seconds left on the Moonlight debuff, this won't lower the remaining time

Q - Waxing Strike

Diana launches a projectile that arcs to her right. Enemies struck by Waxing Strike take magic damage and are afflicted with Moonlight, granting sight of them for 3 seconds. In the next 3 seconds, Diana can cast Waning Strike at no cost.

Q - Waning Strike

Diana launches a projectile that arcs to her left. Enemies struck by Waning Strike take magic damage and are afflicted with Moonlight, granting sight of them for 3 seconds.

The combined damage should be slightly higher than live. Like, first cast doing 50% of live values and the second one dealing 75% of it. So moderate damage. This gives Diana more access to Moonlight debuffs, which interact with all her other skills. it's her primary source of moonlight debuffs, aside from her ultimate, which we'll get to later.

W - Pale Cascade

Diana gains a temporary shield and creates three spheres that orbit her, both for to 5 seconds. The spheres detonate on contact with an enemy unit, dealing magic damage to enemies around Diana. If all three spheres detonate, the shield is reapplied and the duration is refreshed. This second shield stacks with the original shield. This second shield's strength is increased by a set percentage for every Orb detonation that damaged an enemy afflicted by Moonlight.

Another interaction with Moonlight. This is gonna be a thing, y'know. This gives her more strength when going balls deep and less strength at general shielding from poke. What it essentially does is make it a battle shield, making it the most powerful when you play aggressive. I may change it to "every champion or big monster" from "enemy" so you don't get the bigger shield while just generally faffing about in the middle of a minion wave that you recently Q'd.

Additionally, makes the explosions centered on Diana, not on the sphere Should deal low to moderate damage.

E - Lunar Rush

Diana becomes the living embodiment of the vengeful moon, rushing at an enemy afflicted by Moonligh, applying a stack of Moonsilver Blade and dealing magic damage to it. This removes every Moonlight debuff. Diana cannot use Lunar Rush on targets she used Lunar Rush or Moonsilver Blade on in the last 3 seconds.

And now we have the tie-in with the passive. Basically, you can only dash to targets who have Moonlight on them, but you haven't dashed to or triggered your passive on in the last 3 seconds

This means that if you just QE'd someone and start bashing away at them, you don't lose your damage from Passive if Moonlight just happens to run out (because it prolongs it), but they are still able to disengage without you immediately being able to E them to make their retreat moot.

E has no cooldown, since it can only be used on Moonlit targets, it's just roundabout to give it a reset.

Should deal low to moderate damage.

R - Eclipse

Diana stabs her blade in the ground, drawing in all nearby enemies to her location, damaging and slowing them for 2 seconds afterwards. Each enemy champion pulled that has the Moonlight debuff on them grants Diana a small amount of resistances (or %damage resistance, either or) for a few seconds. For the next 10 seconds, Lunar Rush does not remove Moonlight debuffs. Enemy champions hit get the Moonlight debuff applied to them for 10 seconds.

The Moonlight and making E not remove the debuff makes it so she can dash indiscriminately among targets for 10 seconds, assuming she didn't dash to them in the last 3 seconds or triggered her passive on them. Basically gives her a huge boost in mobility for 10 seconds that's locked in a way by the E's limiting mechanic. This gives Diana a second way to use Lunar Rush and serves to be a short surge of power without being only a stat increase.

The extra resists on ult or damage resistance should be so that Zhonya rush can be avoided and so she doesn't get immediately focused and destroyed after engaging. It should last for 2-3 seconds.

Damage should be moderate to high. It's basically her only real burst.

EDIT#1: changed the wording so i don't have to have 3 different debuffs for no reason.

6 Comments

D1rtFarmer1 votes

its so easy to make her feel fun again.. just put her back from the drastic nerfs. akali doesnt even have to land skill shots.. shes a point n clicker.

Crimson Mutt1 votes

{quoted}

its so easy to make her feel fun again.. just put her back from the drastic nerfs. akali doesnt even have to land skill shots.. shes a point n clicker.

Hence why Diana will always be a worse Akali (as an assassin) Diana currently can either be oppressively strong or underpowered. Same as Akali, although Diana can actually be in a semi-UP place as opposed to Akali's "broken or irrelevant".

Gank in Progress1 votes

nice argument. "akali is broken, so why not make diana broken again" no thanks, one noobchamp is enough. diana is a onetrick pony like akali, and no one wants that stuff do be viable.

Crimson Mutt1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quality PIayer,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HWapI9EF,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-19T16:33:15.052+0000)

nice argument. "akali is broken, so why not make diana broken again" no thanks, one noobchamp is enough. diana is a onetrick pony like akali, and no one wants that stuff do be viable.

Uh no. That's the point of this rework. To buff and rework Diana into viability in a way that won't make her broken and overbearing, just like every other rework in the game.

What are you even on about?

Kiharon1 votes

I agree with moving Diana to a fighter. The flavor of the current kit already suggests that to me (passive requiring time for 3 attacks and a skill that gives a shield).

My biggest complaint with the proposal is having 3 different buffs that sound the same but do different things (Moonlight, Moonfire, and Moonstruck). I think there are better ways to keep the dashing in check than Moonstruck, and I don't see what Moonfire does, since Moonlight isn't actually removed (from champions) by anything.

Passive: Did you mean to change it from every 3 attacks to only 3 on the same target? If the debuff is only 3 seconds, it will be hard to get the bonus, especially early when attack speeds are lower.

It will also affect her wave management. It will help when she wants to freeze and hurt when she wants to push.

To clarify, the passive will refresh, but not apply, Moonlight?

I think applying a "you can't dash to the target you just attacked 3 times" debuff would be bad. If I didn't have to use my dash to get to the enemy, I should still be able to use it after I've been hitting them. (See E section for more how I would avoid Moonstruck altogether.)

Also, I think the attack speed "increase" from the passive should go away and her base should be increased keep her at or near the same starting attack speed. There aren't so many attack speed items that she will want to build that she needs the reduced scaling potential.

Q - Waxing/Waning Strike Nice thematics and gives the enemy a little more time to react to the burst, but I don't think it is an overall improvement. You now have to keep track of which way the skill will travel (both as and against Diana) and have to hit an already somewhat difficult skillshot twice for the same value.

W - Pale Cascade No big changes from live, more Moonlight interaction, more reward for fighting, while still having some retreat usefulness; looks good to me.

Making the bonus only count hits to champions and large monsters would probably be a shift of power from laning (especially mid where ranged opponents are more common) to jungling (or perhaps top lane). Not sure if that's a bad thing, if the rest of the changes make her a better jungler than she is now.

Maybe this could have a defensive scaling instead of an AP scaling?

E - Lunar Rush I'm not sure how I feel about switching the current E and R around. It would probably help with early ganks (see jungling comment above).

I do know, however, that I don't like that style of mobility. I would rather see it have a moderate cooldown (probably similar to the current ult) and be given a reduced cooldown if she hits a target currently marked with Moonlight (but still not remove Moonlight). This would prevent the current Q-R-R burst pattern, while still allowing her similar sustained mobility.

Applying a stack of her passive could be good, but all on-hits would probably be too much assassin potential (see Fizz).

R - Eclipse My biggest disappointment with moving the E to the R would be that it will probably end up with a much higher cooldown. Right now, the area pull is available often enough to be a great channel interrupter.

If E has a cooldown, this can just apply a longer instance of Moonlight. % resists would be best if you want to require her to build defense instead of getting too much free defense. Flat resists or % damage reduction work relatively as well or better when she builds more damage than survival.

Overall I agree with the overall damage distributions. I think lower ratios than live would go a long way towards moving from assassin to fighter. I'd also like to avoid the trend towards filling the screen with a single skill tooltip. If possible, having a single type of target debuff would be better.

Crimson Mutt1 votes

{quoted}

I agree with moving Diana to a fighter. The flavor of the current kit already suggests that to me (passive requiring time for 3 attacks and a skill that gives a shield).

My biggest complaint with the proposal is having 3 different buffs that sound the same but do different things (Moonlight, Moonfire, and Moonstruck). I think there are better ways to keep the dashing in check than Moonstruck, and I don't see what Moonfire does, since Moonlight isn't actually removed (from champions) by anything.

Passive: Did you mean to change it from every 3 attacks to only 3 on the same target? If the debuff is only 3 seconds, it will be hard to get the bonus, especially early when attack speeds are lower.

It will also affect her wave management. It will help when she wants to freeze and hurt when she wants to push.

To clarify, the passive will refresh, but not apply, Moonlight?

I think applying a "you can't dash to the target you just attacked 3 times" debuff would be bad. If I didn't have to use my dash to get to the enemy, I should still be able to use it after I've been hitting them. (See E section for more how I would avoid Moonstruck altogether.)

Also, I think the attack speed "increase" from the passive should go away and her base should be increased keep her at or near the same starting attack speed. There aren't so many attack speed items that she will want to build that she needs the reduced scaling potential.

Forgot to remove the "except on enemy champions". E should remove all Moonlight instances, like on live. The Moonstruck mechanic is basically there so you can actually disengage from her since E has no cooldown and her passive extends Moonlight so as to keep the extra damage up if you used Q again for another application. I think this is important since she is generally a relentless chaser.

Besides, even if you start a fight in melee, you'll want to use Q for the extra passive damage and then you may as well E immediately and Q again for extra damage. I don't think there's ever be a situation where you're in melee where you'd not want to use her QEQ to open, unless you want to be able to retreat off of minions or jungle creeps off on the side.

Making it per-target is to make her passive lanepush controllable (i hate uncontrolable lanepush like Diana or Trist have) and to make her fights less bursty.

Q - Waxing/Waning Strike Nice thematics and gives the enemy a little more time to react to the burst, but I don't think it is an overall improvement. You now have to keep track of which way the skill will travel (both as and against Diana) and have to hit an already somewhat difficult skillshot twice for the same value.

Twice for a bigger value, and i kinda moved that damage to her passive. My whole paradigm with this is "less burst more damage over time".

W - Pale Cascade No big changes from live, more Moonlight interaction, more reward for fighting, while still having some retreat usefulness; looks good to me.

Making the bonus only count hits to champions and large monsters would probably be a shift of power from laning (especially mid where ranged opponents are more common) to jungling (or perhaps top lane). Not sure if that's a bad thing, if the rest of the changes make her a better jungler than she is now.

Maybe this could have a defensive scaling instead of an AP scaling?

Well I didnt talk about scaling because these things are fluid.

The increase on champ/monster hit is, like i said, to not get a bigger shield just off of faffing about among enemy minions and to help her jungle clear a bit since i lowered her W damage. As for ranged opponents, it just means she has to go aggro to get a bigger shield.

E - Lunar Rush I'm not sure how I feel about switching the current E and R around. It would probably help with early ganks (see jungling comment above).

I do know, however, that I don't like that style of mobility. I would rather see it have a moderate cooldown (probably similar to the current ult) and be given a reduced cooldown if she hits a target currently marked with Moonlight (but still not remove Moonlight). This would prevent the current Q-R-R burst pattern, while still allowing her similar sustained mobility.

Applying a stack of her passive could be good, but all on-hits would probably be too much assassin potential (see Fizz).

It'll help her in lane as well. Her E is essentially pointless without her R unless she can walk up to her target which most of the time she can't.

I made it specifically so she can indiscriminately dash between targets struck by Moonlight or Moonfire, with limited chasing against a single target with Moonstruck so you can actually break away from her. I don't want to kill the QRR completely in the sense that you can now QR>QR(out) for a bit of harass in lane.

You said Moonstruck was a superfluous buff and that may be the case but it's essentially what yasuo has on his E or Naut on his passive.

Applying a stack of her passive is a nice idea, I agree that all onhits are a bit much.

R - Eclipse My biggest disappointment with moving the E to the R would be that it will probably end up with a much higher cooldown. Right now, the area pull is available often enough to be a great channel interrupter.

If E has a cooldown, this can just apply a longer instance of Moonlight. % resists would be best if you want to require her to build defense instead of getting too much free defense. Flat resists or % damage reduction work relatively as well or better when she builds more damage than survival.

Again, because of the mistake with her E, Moonfire seemed irrelevant but basically E should remove ALL Moonlight debuffs, so Moonfire will be basically the same except not removed and lasting longer. Functionally it's the same as Moonlight, though.

Or i could just say that for 10 seconds E doesn't remove Moonlight debuffs and targets get a long-ass 10s Moonlight debuff which would probably be less confusing. I suck at wording things clearly and conveying ideas, but you get the idea, i guess. I'll change the wording now.

As for resists, they shouldn't really rely on items since it's basically a "survive until your team follows up so you dont blow up instantly" kind of deal, assuming you built yourself right. I like %damage reduction the best since it basically scales off of effective HP, increasing it by a percentage, and that scales directly off of all your defensive stats. So basically you'd not be forced to build more HP than resists for the scaling to put you at optimal effective HP per gold, but can just build normal and gain a flat boost in survivability that basically just extends the time you survive under fire by a percentage.

Overall I agree with the overall damage distributions. I think lower ratios than live would go a long way towards moving from assassin to fighter. I'd also like to avoid the trend towards filling the screen with a single skill tooltip. If possible, having a single type of target debuff would be better.

Well, Moonstruck is basically a roundabout way of saying "You can't use Lunar Rush on targets you've triggered Moonsilver Blade or Lunar Rush on in the last 3 seconds". I'll clean up the wording.

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