Why is Lee Sin allowed to do so much damage?

Blurredface·Nov 23, 2016·109 votes·8,482 views

He is somewhat tankier than your usual non-tanky champions, he is very mobile, has more than 2 way to disengage, has more than 2 ways to engage, he sustains pretty well. So why the damage?

132 Comments

WorksAtAGayBarNov 23, 201653 votes

He's a favorite of Riot, so no matter what, he will ALWAYS be in the meta. It's just an unfortunate truth we all have to accept. plus, his play rate means that all his players will come to defend any nerfs that people have in mind against him. I'd just ban him if you have a ton of trouble with him. Yea, he's super annoying to play against I know, but honestly there are worse offenders of obnoxious mobility, damage, and tankiness. Udyr Cough*

DivewingNov 23, 201638 votes

Both are fucking bullshit. Miracle escapes should be a thing, but those 2 have the tools to do it so regularly it makes you wonder "why the fuck am I bothering playing this super squishy low-mobility champion stressing out over my positioning when I could just play Lee or udyr and not give a shit?"

SintamaNov 23, 20165 votes

Fizz Ekko wut.

DivewingNov 23, 20168 votes

At least those fuckers get bursted

EROTIC RAID BOSSNov 23, 201619 votes

well now they do.

WorksAtAGayBarNov 23, 20162 votes

Yea I have never been more frustrated playing against any champion more than I have udyr.

LovelleNov 23, 201610 votes

Udyr is far easier to deal with than Lee Sin, even as an ADC. He has to run up to you do deal his damage. He gets shutdown by CC and focus late game, just like any other low mobility bruiser.

Irelia would be a far better example. Goes item 3078 into full tank (maybe also item 3153 ) and only a select few champions can actually out-trade her. Is also difficult to focus depending on who is playing her.

VaralessiaNov 23, 201616 votes

Except her only escape is running away from the enemy, once shes in shes in. No speed boost, no dash, no knockback. That's it. She's there.

LovelleNov 23, 20169 votes

Either way, I would rather play against Udyr than Irelia and Lee any day of the week. I mean, who even plays Udyr apart from people that main him? He's not an easy champion to win with. Fully melee with a very predictable playstyle. Sure, there are some rare situations where he can godstomp the enemy, but when he gets countered, he gets countered HARD.

Even a bad Irelia is a threat as long as she builds item 3078 .

LeeSin can kill most of the roster with just boots.

AninLegions777Nov 23, 20161 votes

LooL. Someone hasn't watched trick.

LovelleNov 23, 20164 votes

I've seen Trick and I've played against quite a few decent Udyr players over the years. I know fully well what he's capable of. Udyr is not a champion you can pick into just any team comp. He takes quite a bit of finesse to play well at a high level and is far less forgiving than a champion like Lee Sin when you make mistakes.

EROTIC RAID BOSSNov 23, 20162 votes

lol are you actually implying udyr is harder to play than lee sin

LovelleNov 23, 201613 votes

[{quoted}](name=Monado II,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HG4OgYl6,comment-id=0003000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-23T13:42:10.853+0000)

lol are you actually implying udyr is harder to play than lee sin

Against people that actually know what they're doing yes. He's not more mechanically difficult than Lee, but requires much better decision making because he is far more prone to being kited. Lee Sin is a much more flexible champion and fits in more team comps.

Sraeg2013Nov 23, 20162 votes

his play rate means that all his players will come to defend any nerfs that people have in mind against him

Remember how Riot once wanted to mini-rework him and part of that was making his ult scale with the number of enemies hit instead of doing 600 base damage to every person?

To date that's the only rework that was entirely scrapped and forgotten.

An Undead bratNov 23, 20166 votes

I don't want to sound like a Lee defender, cuz I'm definetely not one, but do you remember Riven's "Edge" secondary bar?

Nameless VoiceNov 23, 201630 votes

Because Lee Sin is a ranged, melee, tanky-DPS-assassin-mage-tank-support-jungler. He excels at everything.

All SkillzzNov 23, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HG4OgYl6,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-11-23T02:15:07.288+0000)

Because Lee Sin is a ranged, melee, tanky-DPS-assassin-mage-tank-support-jungler. He excels at everything.

god i love that spotlight lol

Asayake 5150glowNov 23, 20168 votes

He is difficult.

He has no crowd control besides his ult, which is also his damage.

He is energy reliant (this kinda put a limit on his skill spamming, although I have to say 4 second cd on Q with 20% cdr at rank 5 or something is kinda insane)

His engage relies entirely on getting a perfect combo which then places himself in the middle of the other team.

His teamfighting is rather weak unless he combo'd perfectly and is now at the back line - even then, he will have more trouble than your average assassin will taking them out.

^Not sure how much of this is actually true, was mostly theory :/

GULAG 4 UNov 23, 201640 votes

Being difficult isn't a reason. skillfloor is no weakness, getting gud at the champ invalidates it.

ChaoticPineconeNov 23, 20163 votes

Why isnt it? A champion like Pantheon, who also falls off, has a point and click execute nuke and a point and click stun.

Do you want Pantheon to be as strong as Lee lategame, because "skillfloor is no weakness"?

LuigreinNov 23, 201626 votes

Put simply...yes. To expand upon the point a bit.

In a single player game having a more difficult character be more powerful is fine, it's a good reward for the extra effort that goes in to playing them. In a multiplayer game with a vast roster of characters, the water gets much murkier. If more difficult characters are going to be categorically better than easier characters, then what is the point of the easier to play characters? You could argue that they are their for learning the game, but once you get past the broad basics of gameplay would not your time be better spent learning the specifics of one of the most difficult characters? You're going to have to eventually if you want to be competitive, the easier characters become trap choices as you learn the game. Do we really want to declare large swathes of the roster as "tutorial use only" champions?

A common complaint I see on the board is "these 20 champs dominate the picks" but if difficulty means power is embraced as a design philosophy there is no getting away from it, those 20 champs will always be the 20 most difficult to play. I'm not saying difficulty to play should mean nothing, there's obviously more facets to champion design than just how hard they are to play effectively, but rather that difficulty should not directly translate into more power. To use your point and click vs skill shot example, yes point and click abilities are easier to land then skill shots. But being a skillshot does come with the advantage of being able to hit an enemy that you cannot see. We've all seen plays where an enemy flashes over a wall and an accurate skillshot prediction means you still hit them with an ability. That is something point and click abilities flat out cannot do without vision. Losing reliability for flexibility is in my opinion a fairly healthy trade off, and one that doesn't necessarily come at the cost of raw power. Extremes in either direction are a problem of course, but within the range of balance it's a good axis to move along.

As a final note, difficulty is relatively subjective. While I am sure that we can all agree that having to hit Q 3 times in a rhythm is more difficult than hitting Q once. Whether is is easier or harder than hitting QEWEQ as fast as possible is going to be an answer that changes from player to player.

Jaygo41Nov 23, 20161 votes

This is all very true. Honestly it SCREAMS Camille to me, especially because they literally mention skill cap and floor as a weakness for Camille.

But the same principle kind of applies to Lee... he is a bit too strong right now. He does a lot of damage and he sustains too well. I DON'T think he's unhealthy because his damage falloff is in the late game. He really is hard to use late in the game, similar to an assassin.

AtanchanNov 24, 20161 votes

To be fair, Camille seems difficult in both micro and marco ways, and the micro difficulty isn't "press a lot of buttons really fast but not too fast" but actually stuff like properly zoning a pretty delayed skill.

In this context, it makes sense to have more power, because the difficulty actually makes that power unreliable. A classic example of this is Ashe ult - it has a pretty incredible 3.5 stun on a single enemy and an equal low, strong slow in an AoE around it, but only at very far range, which is incredible unreliable. Use it up close where it's a pretty reliable skillshot, and that's brought down to 1 second - certainly useful, but not as flat-out powerful as the miracle snipes.

The closest thing Lee has to that is having to get the angle right on his kick. Everything else is incredibly reliable.

Tribbles FoxfolkNov 23, 20163 votes

{quoted}

He is difficult.

Yeah...Until you learn to flash-kick and use your passive properly. Then he's not hard at all.

Even if he weren't "difficult", dealing outrageous damage while having so much mobility, a hard CC that knocks back and scales insanely well, a slow, a dash-shield, AND a forgiving execution Q.

MagikarpIsBossNov 23, 20163 votes

So basically you are saying lee sin is hard, but he is easy once you learn him? This argument is so incredibly stupid and is useless because that logic can be applied to anything.

Everything is easy once you understand how to do it. Even the hardest things and concepts in the world are like that. I don't understand how someone can come up with an argument that stupid.

Umbra IoniaNov 23, 20162 votes

1 Skillshot and be tanky is hard? Such wow.

MontethePythonNov 24, 20162 votes

Learning to play lee at a high level and managing the macro-game, especially early is hard, yes. However once you learn to use him he brings a little too much to the table, ya know, by being good at everything in the game, you need a splitpusher? Lee sin. Engage/Picks for the team? Lee Sin. Good Waveclear? Lee sin. Team oriented tank/bruiser jungler? Lee sin. One-hit Assassin jungler? Lee sin. And so on.

The DeckownerNov 23, 20166 votes

bwcause he is the most populr champion and maoes flashy big plays, which gets Rito money.

FioraWillCarryNov 23, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HG4OgYl6,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-11-23T04:52:32.632+0000)

bwcause he is the most populr champion and maoes flashy big plays, which gets Rito money.

Camille might just take that spot now. Just watched a video on Utube of her and holy shit, more mobile than Lee-Sin. Very flashy champion.

The DeckownerNov 23, 20162 votes

yah but she does garbage damage, she can't just point and click RQQ oneshot you early game.

TwinkieProNov 23, 20163 votes

"garbage damage" Crits you for 2200 true damage. "garbage damage"

AstôlfoNov 23, 20163 votes

And then you realize that the crit interaction is removed. And for her to hit you with true damage, she needs to Q first and then wait a fucking eternity before she can hit you with the second Q.

Glory ln DeathNov 23, 20162 votes

When did "eternity" become 1.5 seconds? All she has to do is Q a minion, hookshot to you, stun you, AA, and her second Q is immediately ready.

AstôlfoNov 23, 20163 votes

Uh. 1.5s is an eternity. Even more so in an incredibly fast-paced game like League.

TwinkieProNov 24, 20161 votes

It wasn't at the time of posting. Obviously even Riot thought that it wasn't actually garbage and removed it.

RedagaNov 23, 20161 votes

but she does garbage damage

her Q 2nd cast means her AA damage get 50-61% as true damage. even after a critic strike

AstôlfoNov 23, 20161 votes

And she can't use the true damage Q version without waiting fucking forever after her first Q.

RedagaNov 24, 20161 votes

1.5 seconds is forever only if you are dumb enough to duel an Assassin

AstôlfoNov 24, 20161 votes

?? Yes, exactly. You should not be dueling her for that long by yourself if you're a squishy vulnerable to her.

KarakotNov 23, 20166 votes

oh boy, I guess lees name was drawn out of the "who to complain about on the boards this week" hat

MontethePythonNov 24, 20162 votes

Ha true, but on the bright side he's a better draw from the complaining hat than some of the more recent draws.

EschetonNov 23, 20164 votes

Because he falls off late (theoretically)?

xelakerNov 23, 201611 votes

{quoted}

Because he falls off late (theoretically)?

if his entire team fails to provide is the theory lol

GULAG 4 UNov 23, 20162 votes

it happens in bronze : ^)

DivewingNov 23, 20164 votes

Because his damage falls off unless he builds for it. A pretty shitty excuse in my opinion really because he is still more useful than 90% of the other champions who ACTUALLY fall off

There's definitely some form of favouritism or bias at work, because he doesn't need much work for it to be justified, he just needs to either get cemented as an early game jungler that DOES fall off (so his utility needs to be hit), or as a jack-of-all-trades (and his damage needs to be toned down slightly). Unfortunately because he's not completely busted nothing ever happens, and until he is, nothing ever will.

Done25Nov 23, 20164 votes

Riot did try to nerf/rework him before. Once. The player base went absolutely BERSERK with nerd rage and Riot decided to never touch him again.

BakedLotionNov 23, 20163 votes

He can solo rift herald with lvl 2 W at lvl 9 LMFAOO There is literally no other champion that can do that.

AstôlfoNov 23, 20167 votes

If you let him fight Rift Herald for that long without trying to stop him, you deserve to lose it. It takes fucking forever.

BakedLotionNov 23, 20164 votes

{quoted}

If you let him fight Rift Herald for that long without trying to stop him, you deserve to lose it. It takes fucking forever.

it takes a minute or two at most wat maybe it takes forever for you, but not anyone above bronze lul

And what the fuck do you mean "without trying to stop him?" To stop him, you'll need wards, which he can clear. To have wards on herald, you have to give up lane safety. Herald is almost never warded until it's almost gone from the map. And you can't just leave lane whenever you want to stop him. His team mates can shove you to your tower or keep you at bay.

AstôlfoNov 23, 20165 votes

Uh. 1-2 minutes is a a fucking eternity.

Your fault for having no wards or map awareness.

And if you go after Lee, he'll have to fight both you and Rift Herald and possibly your jungler and maybe even your mid. Hence, their top and/or mid will have to come help unless they just want to let Lee potentially die and give up a free Herald.

And sure he can clear Herald, but even with his sustain, he'll lose a lot. AKA, if anyone catches him, he's an easy kill. AKA, he'll almost be absolutely forced to run away if someone comes after him.

Nice try at the rank card when you're even worse. :)