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Kog'Maw changes on PBE

neaware·Jan 30, 2016·8 votes·1,108 views

1/29 PBE Update

OKAY. LOOK HERE, LELBABBIES.

I don't know what you've been doing to convince Riot that you should be maxing W first, but you're doing it wrong. Before this tentative change, you'd max Q first because it'd give you a good resistance debuff, /free/ attack speed, and damage. With a single point in W and landing your Q correctly, you still had a chance in the game. Your W only provided a range buff as you leveled it, but it was impactful enough at level 1 that it was still an important skill to get.

Now if you put points into Q, the attack speed buff is gone. You can still proc the debuff, but without the attack speed, you can't proc the damage as often. As the attack speed has been shifted to your W, you'd assume that maxing your W first would be great now. Except for the fact that:

Your W being maxed first gives you the attack speed that you need, but other than that it only gives you bonus range and has no effect on your other W stats. Which means that the only real benefit you're gaining from it is from your bonus range, and you should only have been using that in order to actively fight, not to poke (since it now costs mana).

What this leaves us with is now 2 subpar skills rather than 1 good skill and 1 subpar skill. If this change is made live, it will only further kill Kog'Maw, not help him.

If you would like to buff Kog'Maw, why not mess with the %AD that he does once his W is procced? Or change the on-hit %max hp damage to one that has a bas percentage at low levels and then lowers the base damage as you level it while introducing/increasing the AD scaling on it?

For instance: it deals 2.5% base max hp, but has no AD scaling at level 1, and at level 5 it has no base, but has a bonus AD scaling of 1% per every 100AD?

Why not, for easier balancing, introduce skills that have lowering statistics as you rank them up? Skills that have a trade-off as you level them up?

Whatever change you make, moving the attack speed from Q to W is a horrible idea, and I honestly hope Riot doesn't carry through with it. I beg of you, Riot, please don't do this.

Please.

19 Comments

QuephaJan 30, 20162 votes

No one maxes Q first on Kog'maw nowadays.

neawareJan 30, 20161 votes

You should be. As he is live, maxing his Q is vital. 1 point in W is enough for it to do its job.

QuephaJan 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tu Oso Ruso,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GbxoU2GJ,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-01-30T17:10:35.797+0000)

You should be. As he is live, maxing his Q is vital. 1 point in W is enough for it to do its job.

W max has a winrate of about 49%, barely below average which is probably right where a teamcomp dependent champ like Kog'Maw should be. If Q max is even stronger then it's probably over 50% which means Kog'Maw actually deserves a nerf to that playstyle.

neawareJan 30, 20161 votes

A champions should be looked at in more instances than simply winrate (which is also for plat+ if you're using champion.gg, which a majority of the players are not, in case you didn't know).

One must look at the general feel of Kog'maw in these patches. If you'll check on that same site, they also note that he has the second lowest playrate as ADC (second only to Urgot) and that the very low amount of games they have his players recorded as playing are not very indicative of his strength.

That same site indicates that he has a tendency to lose anytime before 30 minutes, and Riot has been trying to push games to end sooner with the updates to towers, timers, buffs like Rift Herald, and more. Additionally, that site also noted that upon reaching 40+ minutes, his win rate once again dips harshly.

Win rates are not a way to measure champion strength. Their average performance in kills, csing, gold earned, deaths, assists, towers destroyed, and other such should be the deciding factors on whether a champion needs to be looked at for changes.

HigeRJan 30, 20161 votes

In this case, numbers can be misleading, since as you said, no one maxes Q first, the sample pool is too small in comparison to say that Q first is not effective enough, also, Kog'maw being a late game champ his win rate will tip one way or the other depending not on how he levels his skills but with game time.

QuephaJan 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

In this case, numbers can be misleading, since as you said, no one maxes Q first, the sample pool is too small in comparison to say that Q first is not effective enough, also, Kog'maw being a late game champ his win rate will tip one way or the other depending not on how he levels his skills but with game time.

I don't have data for maxing Q first, only for W first. W first gives a winrate barely below average, which is where a champion like Kog'maw should be. If Q first is worse, then you shouldn't max Q first. If Q first is better, it would be OP because a Kog'Maw that's much stronger than he is now would be OP.

RebonackJan 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I don't have data for maxing Q first, only for W first. W first gives a winrate barely below average, which is where a champion like Kog'maw should be. If Q first is worse, then you shouldn't max Q first. If Q first is better, it would be OP because a Kog'Maw that's much stronger than he is now would be OP.

OP compared to who?

QuephaJan 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

OP compared to who?

Other adcs. Don't act like Kog'Maw hasn't had stretches where he dominates picks in bot lane.

RebonackJan 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Other adcs. Don't act like Kog'Maw hasn't had stretches where he dominates picks in bot lane.

Happened three times.

Once after Bloodthirster got remade and all early game Marksmen got shafted as a result, though Kog was largely just an issue at the LCS level while Trist dominated Solo. Once in Season 2 at the absolute pinnacle of the metagolem game. And once early Season 1 when his Q increased his total attack speed by 30% and his W doubled his bonus AD (both of which were bugs).

That last one is the only time Kog has ever been a priority pick/ban in Solo. In the other two cases he was picked commonly as opposed to never. So in other words, the only times Kog has ever been great is when Riot somehow fucked up the game's pacing, class balance, or had issues with their code.

Now please, remind me, how long have League's golden girl hyper-carries been sitting at the top of the pick list?

Why is every other Marksmen who fails to fall off late game allowed to be decent while Kog is left to rot in the never-picked hole with Yorick and Urgot?

QuephaJan 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Happened three times.

Once after Bloodthirster got remade and all early game Marksmen got shafted as a result, though Kog was largely just an issue at the LCS level while Trist dominated Solo. Once in Season 2 at the absolute pinnacle of the metagolem game. And once early Season 1 when his Q increased his total attack speed by 30% and his W doubled his bonus AD (both of which were bugs).

That last one is the only time Kog has ever been a priority pick/ban in Solo. In the other two cases he was picked commonly as opposed to never. So in other words, the only times Kog has ever been great is when Riot somehow fucked up the game's pacing, class balance, or had issues with their code.

Now please, remind me, how long have League's golden girl hyper-carries been sitting at the top of the pick list?

Why is every other Marksmen who fails to fall off late game allowed to be decent while Kog is left to rot in the never-picked hole with Yorick and Urgot?

So you're saying live Kog'Maw should max Q?

RebonackJan 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So you're saying live Kog'Maw should max Q?

...no?

I'm saying the only way to make Kog a pick/ban is to make him grossly over-powered because all he brings to the table is late-game damage in a game that heavily favors early game dominance. Two seconds of additional uptime on his W would not make him grossly over-powered, it would allow him to function.

As for Q, it's situational.

If you're up against a lane that you can't trade with (eg, most lanes Kog will face right now) then maxing Q first and using it to poke isn't a terrible idea.

QuephaJan 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

...no?

Then you should follow this thread a little closer. I wasn't saying that Kog'maw was really strong, I was saying that most players max W for a good reason.

Elric VonslapJan 31, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tu Oso Ruso,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GbxoU2GJ,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-01-30T17:10:35.797+0000)

You should be. As he is live, maxing his Q is vital. 1 point in W is enough for it to do its job.

I always max Q first. W (if the game runs long enough) will get maxed, but last.. Moving the AS to W is horrible, they need to leave him alone.

GockCobbler3001Jan 30, 20161 votes

Upboated :DDD

AlyzarJan 30, 20161 votes

yes i agree

neawareJan 30, 20161 votes

Essentially, as it is live, you can put points in/max your Q (and a single point in W is sufficient) and then you'll have some form of reliable trade against an enemy (as Kog ADC).

It gives him some sort of chance against enemy ADCs

If this change goes through, as Kog'Maw ADC you'll have to max BOTH your Q and your W before you can deal any sort of meaningful damage, which means he'll be DEMOLISHED against any enemy ADC.

Champions like Lucian and Caitlyn and Ezreal and Miss Fortune have some sort of reliable long range poke that they can use against you, as well as more early damage and health and mobility than Kog'Maw as it is.

It is incredibly difficult to reach your full potential, and this change would only make it harder for Kog. Even other late game ADCs like Vayne have it much easier than Kog'Maw (she has her own peel, a hard cc, and mobility + invisibility) while being just as good, if not better, at killing tanks.

This change to an already squishy kog'maw with VERY little early game strength means that anyone with any amount of....anything, really, be it armor, magic resist, hp, damage, ANYTHING, would be able to destroy Kog throughout the game.

I understand that a late game scaling hypercarry needs to have a weak early game, but he already has that. He has a weak early game with games ending earlier and also has a limited, skilled playerbase. Why would you further nerf him if he's already where he should be?

ElysMustacheJan 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tu Oso Ruso,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GbxoU2GJ,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-01-30T15:59:32.776+0000)

... the only real benefit you're gaining from it is from your bonus range

It also lowers the cooldown on W.

neawareJan 30, 20161 votes

With the damage nerf (55%), you're only going to be using your W situationally as it is. One of his core items is Guinsoo's Rageblade, and without the stacks, you won't be outputting much damage at all. Reduced cooldown would make you assume that you're able to use it more often, but if you're not using it during those "windows of opportunity(tm)!", then you'll be effectively wasting it. Using it during your regular attack speed build more or less roots you in place as you attack, and this both leaves you vulnerable and makes it difficult to execute.

All of this in consideration, lowered cooldown on W isn't a big deal at all.

Shadowteen20Feb 2, 20161 votes

THANK YOU. I Have been posting this everywhere and people keep disagreeing! http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/EQdvhMOb-kogmaw-changes?comment=00000000 https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/43evxp/possible_kogmaw_change/

Now I find someone like me! Thank you for bringing a bigger view to this problem. There is quite literally NO reason for the w to get the q passive. This will make Kog'maw broken (in the sense that he will not be fixed with just raw numbers).

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