I was just playing solo queue and suprisingly out comunication in champion select was very good. So we had nice team comp: 1.Shyvana 2.Hecarim 3.Yasuo 4.Sivir 5.Karma Karma build mostly AP even she was suport but our teamfights with shyvana tp was amazing just split shyvana and karma coming from behind with ultys and sivir heca in the same time always get instant triple kill.I think maybe other mid laner like oriana would be better but this was nice too. What do u think?
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votestoo many weak spots. sivir is shit weak, yasuo is shit weak and hecarim is good but is he jungle in this composition? why would you do that?
here's my updated version:
darius top shyvana jungle azir mid jinx adc nautilus support
enjoy
LaowPing2 votesThat was so bad. First off, sivir isn't weak. She's good at wave clear and does decent damage. Her biggest strength is her engage potential (which is the entire point of the composition) where as her only weakness is her late game isn't as strong as other ADCs. Yasuo is also a good champ especially when combined with people who can trigger his ult such as Shyvana or Hecarim (again, that was the ENTIRE point of the composition). The scary thing about his comp is that 2 of the them have great initiation and diving potential, 2 others can give team speed boost to help the initiation/diving, and the last one has some of the best follow up to a good engage in the entire game. His team comp is scary, yours is just.... boring.
Edit: And let's not forget that Hecarim scales off the speed boost that Karma and Sivir give.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votessure its a scary teamcomp if you have 5 teemos or so, but just imagine what happens when our comps hit eachother:
azir and jinx can poke you from range while you have absolutely zero ways to poke back effectively, this means you HAVE to charge at us. now we just walk back and throw our traps and soldiers in your face and you take some damage and you cant really lock us down as you have no hard cc. now hecarim kinda HAS to ult in with sivirs ult or there is simply no way to reach us.
then, after he ults in and yasuo jumps on someone, azir ults the rest of your team while darius, shyvana and jinx instagib yasuo who got ulted by nautilus, who then walks forward to slow the rest of your closing in team. you CANT get ontop of us and even if you have CC in your team, like you swap karma for leona, you still cant dive onto stronger champions.
you basically limited yourself to only catching people off guard by picking weak champions. sure this works sometimes vs noobs same as "wombo combo" champs like malph, orianna, amumu, graves, leona can work as long as the enemy team doesnt identify your weaknesses and starts a head on fight with you.
but in theory, if both teams play not retarded, there is no way you can win vs most comps who have strong champions. sivir has terrible laning and karma doesnt help with that, same as yasuo. they are just really so weak and i dont get why you would put hecarim in the jungle instead of shyvana, who is a much stronger jungler. but whatever.
just one thing: explain to me why you ask about opinions about your teamcomp and when you get any, you deny them ; )
LaowPing1 votes"this means you HAVE to charge at us"
.....that's the entire point. The idea behind the comp is to engage.
You have a good point with Azir to stop engages, but not every team comp has an Azir. Also, with all the speed boost it only takes one person being slightly misplaced for them to get jumped on. Poke comps are countered by engage. Jinx has no escapes and is very immobile and with a Yasuo ult she dies easy. Sivir does not have a weak laning phase. She wave clears very easily and can spell shield anything the support does. Yasuo is more match up based since he can wall some mids and can't wall others. Even then, the comp can easily split push due to all the wave clear and movement speed possessed by the team.
As for your last comment, you might wanna check the usernames again bro ;)
Edit, you forgot about Karma's poke btw. AP karma hurts.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votesall right, the usernames. my bad.
if your comp HAS to engage, they allready fucked themselves by that. if a team HAS to do a specific thing in order to win, you can put all your strength into defending from that thing and you automatically win. and since defense in league of legends is much much stronger than offense, you CANNOT win with that mentality ever. its impossible by game design alone.
sivirs laning phase is horrible, ESPECIALLY with someone like karma. lets say they lane vs nautilus and jinx/draven/miss fortune/corki. she will get zoned, she will have to use her mana to waveclear, she cant push out even with her abilities, she will miss CS and she just simply has much less damage in every stage of the game. sure, her power is in her ultimate and if you can use it properly, you will make up for the lack of champ strength. but with THIS team composition, you CANT use your ultimate properly ever. the only thing it does is make your team die faster.
its not ap karma, its support karma. if the speed-theme is consequently applied, it would be much better if she gets the coin instead of the ap item and she PROBABLY will get glory second. she deals zero damage. also, sure this karma build is good at giving your entire team 200% movementspeed which makes them run into their doom at 1200 movespeed each combined with sivir ult, but she doesnt give you any power. karmas strength in a teamfight is ACTUALLY not in engaging or all-inning, its in kiting back. with this comp, kiting back is no option so your support basically becomes nothing but a speed boost machine. your ADC suffers the same fate, so your botlane does literally nothing but give your teammembers 800 bonus movespeed.
you have hecarim jungle and shyvana top. if you swapped that around, i would at least let this point slide, but since you do it the way it is, its really horrible. shyvana top has huge problems, to the point where it is impossible, to lane against bruisers after 1 item if she builds full damage. so lets say she goes BOTRK first and not thornmail/randuins second but another damage item and she lanes vs jax/riven/darius/garen/master yi/anyone who doesnt suck, she cant lane. she cant touch cs ever. this means, she kinda HAS to build tanky if she lanes. she will go like botrk randuins spiritvisage or similar bullshit. now her damage is incredibly low and she still cannot "win" lane, she can just lane. at least that. so its even here, but in a teamfight where you want to engage hardcore, you need some kind of strong damage so your engage is actually followed up by something.
since shyvana is incredibly weak to being kited and the whole speedup kit has been fired to engage AND YOU STILL HAVE NO LOCKDOWN, her damage output will be incredibly low and even if she gets to attack someone, she has trouble dealing her full damage due to the insane amount of peel my teamcomp and most other teamcomps have. its just easy to peel a shyvana.
hecarim now jungles and he will most likely go cinderhulk into more tanky items because if he goes warriors + trinity, he will get instagibbed by azirs Q alone basically. he will never get to do any damage to anyone. full damage champions are not made to engage or dive onto teams, so he will go cinderhulk frozen heart spirit visage and deal no damage. aside from that, his ganks are really only mediocre and he gets pushed out of his jungle by most bruiser junglers with this build. and even if it goes decently, he farms slow and just falls behind slightly by default.
yasuo mid, the biggest focus of your team and at the same time the biggest liability. yasuos laning is really mediocre vs most champs and he is decently gankable if he tries anything. so lets say he is laning against an azir or victor, the strongest midlaners and champs in the game in my opinion. what will happen? lets say they both go even. both my champs can poke, waveclear, defend and siege incredibly well and are extremely good teamfighters and skirmishers. they are both hard to gank for your and really most comps, so you will at best go even.
now both my midlaners deal ALOT more damage than yasuo, both deal LONG RANGED damage and both of them are good in every single scenario imaginable in league of legends, AND its magic damage too, so you have to itemize against both damage types while basically all your damage is physical. (8. another weakness of your team. only one damage type)
now all this factors into you HAVING to engage, but you cant. you are weaker than my team and not slightly, but by alot. yasuo is 50% of your teams damage potential so he HAS to get onto a squishy and he HAS to be able to not only just ult once but also auto/Q a couple of times. but he cant. yasuo cant dive into the middle of a CC heavy team. you have zero lockdown and even if you get to yasuo-ult a squishy, it wont instagib him unless yasuo is 10:0 but even then he will survive with nautilus face of the mountain and heal+flash+potential barrier. after that, yasuo gets instagibbed by 5 damage-heavy champions which are still not super squishy. what now? will you kill us all with full tank hecarim, shyvana and karma? you have no damage and we have insane damage of which a decent amount is AoE and mixed damage. you will get shredded, and not just because of your COMP, but because of you just being weaker.
its like you put yourself in a position where you HAVE to engage into a SUPER STRONG teamcomp. man even if its just ziggs or cassio or kogmaw mid. no way you can be successfull if all you can do is suicide in.
now if you had hecarim top and shyvana jungle, you could splitpush with shyvana and if you do some really sweet rotations, you might even be able to get a good hyperspeed engage, but then thats requires you to play much better than the enemy team and if you play much better, you can win with anything really.
LaowPing1 votesMan that was an essay.
First point doesn't make much sense. Defense is not stronger than offense in league. Good offense can counter good defense and vice versa. Having to engage is not a bad thing. Team fights are going to happen in league especially with objectives like dragon and baron. Proper flanking can cause engages to come from multiple sides.
Sivir's laning phase is not bad in the slightest. Karma will do all in the poke in the lane for off using her q to stop Jinx from csing. Her damage output is higher than Jinx in lane. Nautilus's Q and basic attack can stop her from attacking but Karma's shield and root can stop nautilus from going anywhere and sivir can simply spell shield Naut's cc. She's also great at pushing lanes under tower and jinx isn't the best at csing under turret.
Why the hell is Karma buying coin or rightous glory? Her ult w is the only speed boost she needs. Spell thief into damage items easily. She keeps pressing q over and over to harass like a mofo. Naut get's poked down and when he tries to go in on sivir or karma, jinx does lackluster damage and sivir spell shields the cc.
You..... do you play Shyvana? Shyvana top works quite first. First off, she always goes bortk into tank items. That's all she needs. She does hybrid damage, tanky passive, and percentage based damage. Her damage doesn't come from items, her natural abilities will give it to her. After that she goes full tank and becomes almost impossible to kill while still doing damage. Shyvana's been known for being able to lane against Riven and even win. Now, against Darius she would have a hard time in lane since Darius is all early game, and in that case she just farms under turret (which she's quite good at) and scale into late game (which she's also really good at).
A proper Shyvana build makes her really hard to kite. bortk and ult to close in and furor boots to stay on her target. I can speak from experience how hard it is to keep Shyvana off you with this.
Hecarim (much like shyvana) doesn't need "full damage" in order to do damage. With sivir ult and karma speed boost he can half health an opponent with one go. He can even go smite/teleport so that he can homegaurd in and delete squishies.
This may sound familiar but..... do you play Yasuo? Yasuo does a LOT of damage. One q is a third of a squishies health mid game. Since Hecarim's blinding speed gives him the damage to half health azir and jinx and Yasuo ult also does about half, hat's a deletion. CC is nice but when this comp is played properly once good hecarim initiation displaces your carries enound and does enough damage for yasuo to easily finish them off.
"you have no duelist on your team" ..........do you play hecarim or yasuo or shyvana? Sure, hecarim relies on a speed boost but shyvana is one for the best duelist in the game. Yasuo is high damage and deletes people late game. Azir is really the only thing that can stop this comp and that's because his ult is damn near made to stop engages. If hecarim gets a good speed boost flank (which is what he is meant to do) hecarim + yasuo kill him. Jinx then dies easily without disengage and your only source of damage is Darius who falls of after the laning phase where the engage comp shines.
Also, about the split pushing, shyvana is a great split pushing, especially with TP. Yasuo with static shiv (which is core on him) cuts through minion waves like nothing and takes towers quickly and sivir has some of the best wave clear in the game. The comp can easily run a 1-3-1 and have hecarim and shyvana teleport in when they're needed.
I feel like you don't play some of these champions much since our perception on what they're going to do or how much damage they do differs.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votesdefense is stronger. its not a point of our opinions or anything, it just is stronger. fact.
sivir karma cant lane vs naut + any strong adc. this is also not opinion based. they just cant. their damage is too low and their ability to pevent damage is basically non existant, even with shields, roots and spellshield.
because that teamcomp has only one power and if you want to fully utilize that power, you have to be consequent. cant fuck around too much, if you go for speed, go for speed. support-karmas damage is zero no matter what items, especially now that her empowered W doesnt do bonus damage.
yes, i main her and i can tell you 100% what i said is true. if you build 2 items of damage, she cant lane against anyone and if you dont, she becomes ignorable in teamfights at least for the duration of yasuos short life.
thats in a 1on1 or 2on2 scenario. in teamfights its pretty easy especially with that much peel.
sure he doesnt need full damage, but since hes jungling he probably has zero damage. and even if he does some, his tankyness will suffer and he cant dive into a high damage team.
if enemy team has no vision and no idea whats coming and zero reaction speed, you might even be right. is that our scenario? i thought both teams were somewhat knowing how to play. but maybe i just missunderstood.
jungle hecarim is no duelist. tanky shyvana is no duelist. full damage yasuo is no duelist. they cant even take 20% hp off of a strong duelist
splitpushing requires a somewhat decent duelist or you will simply get pushed back.
seems like you didnt play this teamcomp nor any of those champions much since you seem to have no idea where your powers and limits are. if you want, get a 5 man team and use this shit comp against me ; )
LaowPing1 votesSo much disagreement.
So I'll make this my last reply since this is clearly going no where.
Don't state this as a fact if you have nothing that backs it up. And it's not a fact, it's your opinion. Look up the word "fact" in the dictionary if you don't believe me.
They have a shit ton of ability to prevent damage. You listed 3 of them just now. Shields, roots, and spellshield all prevent damage. And don't list this as your arguement when you use nothing to back it up. Saying "they just can't" is not an arguement. It's a baseless statement.
Sivir ult plus karma speed boost is an insane amount of speed for hecarim. That alone gives him more damage than 2 damage items. On top of that, this team splits very well and is very good at picks. Also....do you play karma? Her q is her source of damage. Going support does not mean you suddenly don't do damage. It simply delays it until after you've gotten your sightstone. And even without item, simply maxing q and shooting it at people does a lot of damage.
You main her yet you don't seem to know how she works. She only needs one damage item; bortk. That's it. Her kit gives her the rest of her damage, especially since they buffed her w. Full tank after that and no one can duel her. Give her a speed boost and furor and no one can stop her. Shyvana's job is to either duel, split, or jump on the enemy carry and chomp them down with her hybrid damage and attack speed.
If you're using more than 2 people to peel shyvana you're leaving alone the hecarim with 3 different sources of speed boost and the yasuo who is going to come in and clean up.
That's a very weird assumption. He could easily get one offensive item or simply use the speed boost I've mentioned about ten times now to give himself damage. High damage team means nothing if he can jump on them before they can react, which multiple speed boost gives him.
Our scenario is where the engage comp gets a one speed boost and one person (probably shyvana) to flank. It only tanks on flank which is pretty easy since the split pushing can seperate the team.
My mind is struggling to figure out how you can main shyvana yet not understand she is one of the strongest duelist in this game. And yasuo has always been a strong duelist. With his high ass damage output and how quickly he can get his tornado up, plus his mobility with his e, he duels very well. He deletes many duelist actually.
Refer to point 8
And with that I bid you good day sir.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votesif A and B have the same power level, the one who moves towards the other one first uses a certain amount of power for that, mostly in the form of time, either by the time you invest to walk forward or even by cooldowns. sometimes even in the form of health, for example if the enemy has longer range and unavoidable damage like azir. this means, if you are not stronger, you can not walk forward because once you reach, you will have allready used up some of your power and even if its just a little bit, you were at equal strength first, and if you use even 1% of that power, you are now weaker and will die.
factoring minions, towers, spell ranges, cc and the ability of the defending team to just walk backwards (kiting), there is almost no chance for you to straight up "engage" on an enemy team if you are weaker. this is almost no matter of champions but a matter of game design. sure some specific teamcomps can engage on some specific others if the defensive capabilities of the latter are extremely weak, but that is a very unlikely scenario and not given in ours.
as you can see, this is not my opinion, its a simple fact. defense in league is stronger than offense.
now if you go and check the numbers on nautilus and karmas stats and abilities, you will see that karma can simply not stop nautilus. she is much weaker and her root doesnt stop neither him nor the ADC from doing their thing because the ADC is ranged and doesnt care and nautilus Q ignores roots while all of his other abilities are unaffected by them too. this means, as long as you are WEAKER, the root actually is not part of the calculation. it might stop them from killing you, but it doesnt give you the power to lane.
this is also not a matter of opinion as you can see. it is how the game is designed.
hecarims impact might deal some damage, but his bonus damage disappears after that and as i said, if you cant instagib, which you cant, he will deal no damage afterwards and be useless. "no damage" is ofcourse an exaggeration when comparing him to what he is facing. in this scenario, he is facing a full damage darius, a full damage azir, a full damage strong marksman, a high damage shyvana build and a nautilus lockdown. the damage he deals against this can be considered none. and if he SHOULD build damage items, he will die so quickly from diving right into that team that the damage he dealt will still be about none. also, yes, i mained karma for a while as top mid jungle and support, but mainly support. i know how low her damage is, especially early and if you dont build for it. i know how high nautilus early damage is and i know that no matter what karma builds, she will never be able to poke, let alone outpoke a real poke champion like azir. this is because karma is somewhat of a bruiser. she is a very good, strong champion but she is very weak in the composition and role you put her in.
i will make this easy for myself so i dont have to explain this in a mathematical way, but lets just compare our shyvana games (i got about 130 while you got 3) and conclude that im pretty aware of the damage she can deal at any point with any itemization and how she gets to deal that damage. and i can promise you, its not by jumping into a high damage high cc enemy team to "chomp" anyone. if you build her botrk full tank, she will literally be even more useless than this full tank jungle hecarim who desperately charges in to proc yasuos ult.
the reason shyvana is so strong in jungle right now is because she synergizes 100% perfectly with devourer and devourer by itself synergizes again with botrk. the combination of those two items is what makes shyvana deal damage, not botrk alone, which is actually pretty weak. also, aside from some bonus resistances, she actually has nothing that makes her a tank or even lets her consider jumping into anything that will defend itself.
yasuo cant "clean up" as there are no scattered low hp champs. the moment yasuo ults, and if it isnt on at least 3 people, he will get INSTAGIBBED by darius, shyvana or victor/azir whoever it is. literally INSTANT death before his ultimate even ends. that is how much damage they deal. nobody will peel a hecarim without damage items and nobody will peel a shyvana with only botrk before instagibbing yasuo. they will simply eat a part of the big AoE damage and CC from this team or any well-composed team which will slow down their damage enough to turn on them and kill them too, because everything that is following up their engage is a sivir and a karma. not very scary. not at all. there is simply too much damage and too much CC for any champion to dive into. again, a matter of game design. if you cant disable the enemys damage, you can actually not take it no matter how many tank items you build. damage simply is stronger and scales better than tankyness.
nobody can jump on anyone before they can react in this game, except if you flash over a wall from the fog of war, but that isnt the scenario here because that would mean that you allready outplayed the enemy team beforehand and let them make mistakes. in our scenario tho, both teams are playing to their possibilities which means, my team is simply grouped, warded up and defends your attempt to engage. this does not have to be under tower, it can be at around baron or dragon. the speed boosts dont give him any sustained damage, just a small burst of maybe +300 damage total on a squishy target. also, the assumption he has no damage items from jungle is simple. if you dont buy cinderhulk as hecarim, you are extremely squishy. trinity from lane at least gives some hp and movementspeed to boost positioning, but warriors doesnt give him anything, not even that much damage. his damage from jungling comes from cinderhulk burn and frozen heart CDR to have more sustained damage. he MIGHT get trinity/gauntlet third, which would be recommended, but we are talking 2-3 items here, not full build, as that is an entirely unrealistic scenario. tho if its 3 items and he has trinity third against a hydra trinity BT darius who stands back and peels, hecarims damage is still too low to have kill potential while every not-so-tanky member of your team will INSTANTLY die.
why does she flank? flanking allready means she somewhat has the upper hand in positioning, so the scenario is allready not even. but lets say we have exactly those teams and its your lane-shyvana vs my jungle shyvana, my shyvana can kill yours without losing more than 50% hp, or if you dont even have smite but flash/tp, it will be no more than 20% hp. this means, there is almost no chance you can flank, because the splitpushing game goes in our favor aswell since we have the stronger splitpushers and duelists, as two members of our team can safely duel all your members easily. none of your champs can go up against darius or jungle damage shyvana. this means, she is most likely not flanking but grouped with her team, charging at us as 5 people without flanks.
shyvana is THE strongest duelist in the game and the only champion who can beat her, even tho being a bit weaker in dueling overall, is nocturne. her main dueling power also doesnt come from how strong she is, but how fast she gets strong as her power spikes are very early and last for quite some time. also, she just jungles so fast, she gets more gold than others naturally.
BUT if you build botrk + tank, her dueling power is not maxed out and she loses to some other very strong duelists like for example herself build on damage, yasuo, master yi, fiora, jax, irelia and even gnar.
yasuo on the other hand isnt a duelist at all. he can kill some champions if he can wall and juke their power, so he could maybe duel victor if he jukes his ray and walls his Q but victor wouldnt go and duel him. shyvana kills him almost without losing hp and he is no match for darius either. the only option he has to duel other mediocre duelists is if he builds randuins third, so either shiv botrk randuins or shiv ie randuins, but in this scenario he would still not be able to duel my champs and his instagibbing-potential would be nullified, effectively removing your entire gameplan.
the only option here would be to go for a 1-3-1 splitpush and the moment we show up to counter, you would instantly pull your champions back and try to out-rotate us so that you have 2-3 seconds where you outnumber our defenses and get to engage the way you want. but then again, that would rely on outplaying first and still not be the stronger composition/strategy.
now, also a good day to you
MLDzXnRRR1 votesIt's not good team comp at all, sorry; you are hard engage and have no hard CC... Poke comp and Disengage comp can destroy you, if they have the right champions...
