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Losing AP From Building Athene's Holy Grail

ActuallyAFkinRat··58 votes·16,081 views

I was playing support Sona, and noticed when building items that you actually lose AP from building Athene's Holy Grail. So in patch 8.9, Fiendish Codex item 3108 was updated from 30 AP -> 35 AP, but Athene's Holy Grail item 3174 still has 30 AP. So without its passive that grants you AP from base mana regen, you're essentially losing AP if you buy Fiendish Codex then build it into Athene's Holy Grail. I know that the item changes were targeted towards mages (item 3157 and item 3102 give 5 more AP) and it's not that big of a deal since item 3174 is a support item and most AP supports build mana regen items anyway (so you don't actually lose AP because of the passive), but I just wanted to point out the base AP that Athene's Holy Grail gives is actually lower than an item it is built from. With that note, enjoy your support games ^.^ (item 3174 is still a great item). Note: I am not a support name, I was playing Sona because I have a DJ Sona skin from hextech crafting 2 years ago lol, haven't had any ultimate skins from chests since :c

48 Comments

Jaspers28 votes

There was a thread on this exact thing not long ago, I think it's because you get 20 AP from it's passive just from buying the item. An odd thing really, they've nerfed the completed item because of the passive giving extra stats.

As a Nami main, I buy it first item on her, with Ardent and Redemption after. Without Athene's Ardent and Redemption don't give you enough.

Xilixer17 votes

back in my day it was a mage item!

AlienPrimate1 votes

{quoted}

back in my day it was a Galio item!

ftfy

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Actually back before the rework almost every mage rushed it since it was in the same boat as morellonomicon was last year. It gave everything a mage wanted (AP, CDR, an absurd amount of mana), but unlike Morello you lost out on a bit of AP but instead got 30(?) MR which combined with the fact the enemy midlaner was also building it first item MOST of the time (there were exceptions), it caused mid lane to become a ResidentSleeper farmfest since both mid laners had like 70 MR and only like 50 AP and thus couldn't kill each other.

AlienPrimate1 votes

That's why I said it was a Galio item. Galio would have 70 MR and 90 AP with just Athene's.

Xilixer1 votes

this. it used to be my first buy when playing as vel'koz or malzahar when laning against fizz or ahri.

Gamer Gallade11 votes

What doesn't make any sense is that item 3098 gives 50% mana regen while item 3092 gives 25% mana regen.

It makes Athene's worse to build and has no reason to build it with that kind of change.

Rito pls. Buff both item 3174 AP and item 3092 Mana Regen to be on par with Frost Fang item 3098 (or better)

Trias0001 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gamer Gallade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GPV30Kgh,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-05-11T18:51:24.421+0000)

What doesn't make any sense is that item 3098 gives 50% mana regen while item 3092 gives 25% mana regen.

They both give 50% regen, it's just a wrong tooltip.

Gamer Gallade1 votes

last time i checked it was different. Maybe its a bug or something off. Might ask rito on that.

I checked the items list and it is saying the same thing as i said...

[slayer-jinx-unamused] Rito pls

Trias0001 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gamer Gallade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GPV30Kgh,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-05-11T22:26:37.440+0000)

I checked the items list and it is saying the same thing as i said...

Like I said, the tooltip is wrong.

Salron10 votes

The passive gives more AP than you lose

Done254 votes

Tbh I don't like that it's an item that forcibly relies on three/four other specific items to access it's full stats. Why not just give it base 60~80 AP for an extra bit of gold?

remakoro2 votes

{quoted}

Tbh I don't like that it's an item that forcibly relies on three/four other specific items to access it's full stats. Why not just give it base 60~80 AP for an extra bit of gold?

Good idea. Lets do the same with item 3031 and item 3089 Sooo how hard you want it? Double the price or triple it? Cuz benefits from those items really depend on what you gonna build.

Done251 votes

Deathcap will work with any AP item, while Unholy Grail only works with four specific items. IE is similar, but that's more an issue with Riot only leaving us four crit items.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Deathcap will work with any AP item, while Unholy Grail only works with four specific items. IE is similar, but that's more an issue with Riot only leaving us four crit items.

Unholy Grail works with item 1004 item 3114 item 3028 item 3107 item 3504 item 3222 as well as itself item 3174 .and worked with item 1056 before they changed it.

It works with any source that gives your %BaseManaRegen.

i don't see how that is any different than item 3089 item 3031 item 3193 or even item 3147 .

Hell, Duskblade is worse because the only Lethality items are item 3134 item 3142 item 3814 and itself item 3147.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

It works with any source that gives your %BaseManaRegen.

i don't see how that is any different than item 3089 item 3031 item 3193 or even item 3147 .

Hell, Duskblade is worse because the only Lethality items are item 3134 item 3142 item 3814 and itself item 3147.

Try items item 3107 item 3504 item 3222 and the AP support gen item. Obvs it works with itself. You know what it also does? It disables the passive healing from Mikael's, so that's not even all that big of a gain.

And I don't like lethality items and how they work as a whole. That's another thing Riot needs to redo.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Try items item 3107 item 3504 item 3222 and the AP support gen item. Obvs it works with itself.

it works with all the items i listed. each individual Faerie charm gives you BaseManaRegen and counts towards it, as did Dorans before it got changed recently.

You know what it also does? It disables the passive healing from Mikael's, so that's not even all that big of a gain.

Yes, unique passives tend to cancel eachother out. The naming might make it confusing but that's largely for thematic. The Harmony and Discord Passives effectively act as Unique Passives where Discord always trumps the other.

Both give u something for Base ManaRegen.

I don't get your point about the last part.

And I don't like lethality items and how they work as a whole. That's another thing Riot needs to redo.

You haven't explained why at all yet, let aloen why Dcap and Crit are exmpt for some reason.

FakeGravity5 votes

a mana regen item that have high base ap scream "mage" instead of support, which is why they nerf so many items in the past just to force mages to buy mana instead of mana regen

Gamer Gallade2 votes

I feel like making it give 40 AP makes it good for Supports but bad for Full damage Support mages that needs more AP to make good use out of it.

Just a nice compromise.

Done252 votes

What makes it bad for full damage "support" mages is the fact that it's near impossible for them to use the passive. :P

VoraciousX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gamer Gallade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GPV30Kgh,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2018-05-11T18:53:51.767+0000)

I feel like making it give 40 AP makes it good for Supports but bad for Full damage Support mages that needs more AP to make good use out of it.

Just a nice compromise.

I think you need no AP on the item because you took it from mid laners personally and you have heal and shield power which give shields more umph without having to build squishy.

Snowman Arc1 votes

I can already see the horrors of an Orianna building it.

Done253 votes

And this is different from Lux/Morgana building it...how?

Snowman Arc1 votes

Not very different with Lux, but Morgana doesn't usually build a lot of AP to charge it up as fast.

Done252 votes

That's more of a build than a champ thing.

Snowman Arc1 votes

But Orianna and Lux are played more as carry mid laners, while Morgana is a support mostly. Mid laners will naturally build a lot of AP, so the healing will be better.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GPV30Kgh,comment-id=00010001000100000000,timestamp=2018-05-12T11:00:11.234+0000)

Not very different with Lux, but Morgana doesn't usually build a lot of AP to charge it up as fast.

it works off of pre mitigated damage. you don't strictly need AP. Bases usually work decently enough, especially with Morgs higher bases and % dmg.

Snowman Arc1 votes

An Ori Q-W will stack it up to full if you have a lot of AP. Morg's Q-W without AP won't fill it enough.

Espy Psyche2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GPV30Kgh,comment-id=000100010001,timestamp=2018-05-11T20:52:34.917+0000)

I can already see the horrors of an Orianna building it.

When playing Orianna as a support, she does build it already

Snowman Arc1 votes

Is Orianna played as a support? I don't think it's really good, honestly.

Done252 votes

Except this item was made for mage type supports. Lux, Morgana, Karma, etc. Champs who can both do damage and support their team. Besides, what is Brand going to do with the healing passive anyways? Proc it once every three min or so with his Heal?

Daddy Ants2 votes

The fact it builds out of a 35 AP Component and we get 30 AP in return is a bit bs imo.

Bhagswag3 votes

You get more total AP because the passive gives AP based on mana regen, and the item gives mana regen

Steelflame3 votes

I really feel like a lot of people don't understand that it buffs itself. Its at least a 50 AP item at all times, it just potentially goes up to 90 or so with a full build.

Ifneth2 votes

Yeah, it should give at least as much AP as the items. It’s just a feels-bad thing to ‘lose’ AP for completing the item.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Sit on a codex+chalice. Check your AP. Upgrade to Grail. Check your AP again. Go ahead and post screenshots of you losing AP. I'll be waiting right here for the pictures that will never show up.

Ifneth1 votes

It’s not the actual stats you ultimately get—just the perception.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

And perception can be wrong. This argument is pointless. Athene's could be "buffed" next patch to have 50 AP and not benefit from its own passive. It would do nothing to the item, but instead make it "look better" and cause a placebo effect.

Ifneth1 votes

It’s not at all pointless. Unless you understand that the passive is worth a lot of AP, it looks like the item gives less AP for upgrading it. Just give it 5 AP.

Probs feeding2 votes

I made a lost about Athenes gettings indirectly nerfed too awhile ago. With all the mana regen nerfs, you lose a lot of value from Athenes.

ChaddyFantome4 votes

[{quoted}](name=k gr8,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GPV30Kgh,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-05-11T21:58:14.771+0000)

I made a lost about Athenes gettings indirectly nerfed too awhile ago. With all the mana regen nerfs, you lose a lot of value from Athenes.

You actually don't. Athenes only scales with the "%Base Mana regen" stat specifically, not your overall mana regen stat.

Riot changing the bases of every champion doesn't affect the stat because their base is still their base.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Congrats on the free DJ Sona skin! [slayer-jinx-catface]

Z3Sleeper2 votes

But if you gain AP from the passive that will ALWAYS give more than the -5 AP then it's not actually a net AP loss.

No need to buff an item that is performing fine.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Be careful 7.10 spirit visage you only gained more hp 25 hp from building item 3211 and item 3067 into it so players complained and riot gave them 25 hp and took away 5 magic resist and 100% base health regeneration. Thats a how dare you question our balance decision hammer if ive ever seen one. It it could only happen to the 2 more complacant groups of players in the game bruisers mains who dont say anything and let riot take them in any position they please and tank mains who dont exist anymore just people who play tanks when tanks are strong enough to peel for an adc mage back line and let an adc mage back line carry them.

Dewott6101 votes

also I think the spelltheifs item loses mana regen when upgrading from level 2 to 3

ChaddyFantome1 votes

item 3070 loses Mana regen upon being bought despite building out of item 1027 + item 1004 ! Been bothering me for years now.

Sad Tyrant2 votes

It gains it back with the 10% mana refund.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sad Tyrant,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GPV30Kgh,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2018-05-12T17:20:52.943+0000)

It gains it back with the 10% mana refund.

largely missing the point there.

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