Future of Red Buff?

VincenteIlForte··1 votes·1,083 views

If I recall properly, Riot said that they were uncertain of Red Buff's future. (Please forgive me in advance because I couldn't find the post and could have possibly misread the entire post.) I would want an opinion of this stupid idea that I have brewed in my head in the last thirty minutes, late at night/early morning.

We all know that Red Buff currently gives a slow to AAs then burns a target for a little extra damage, which is nothing compared to a more valuable Blue Buff, which gives 10% CDR, and extra mana regeneration. I was thinking what if Red buff became a "Gold buff"? The buff would give the holder +X gold per second, +Y% attack speed, and Z% slow?

My reasoning for this:

  1. The extra gold generation will help any player catch up if he falls behind. Not to the point where it nullifies the advantage of a player for shutting down his opponent, but to the point where it puts a band-aid over a deep gash. It helps, but you'd want to play more safely for having it, and not risk giving it to your opponent.
  2. The attack speed and Slow would go hand in hand, attack faster and reapply the slow. This would also allow for the possibility of more variety of champions in the jungle.
  3. It will have important strategic value at all points of the game. No one would want their enemy at any point of the game to have extra income, especially if they are ahead, nor would they want the enemy carries with more attack speed and a slow.
  4. It can be valued by all roles. It helps supports get a little extra money outside their gold income items, assists, and kills, not to mention the utility of the slow. ADCs get attack speed and a slow for chasing people down, helping with the laneing phase or late game. You get the idea.

I'm not sure on any numbers yet, I just want to know opinions of other people.

13 Comments

Decrit2 votes

About gold generation i am against it: at the coment buffs are conceptualized as stat boosters and have to remain that way, and it can be very hazardous otherwise. Plus you can' t give a whole bunch of stats, but just a few selected ones. Second, the buff is more for slow attackers, since they are almost always in time to reapply the buff even with the slowest AS possible. Third, at the moment jungle tanks are the most compromised champions, besides assassins and carries that have good clear time and good ganks, so if it had to be a change it must be more in favor of the tanks. And slows and trued dot looks very good on them at the moment, while is not enough and not perfect, so at least better move in that way. Not like i am against the idea of a gold-generating buff, but that does not fit yet there; also, how generating? if passive then it does not add any feature to the game because it' s passive, and maybe players tend to not risk it by ganking, and if on kill then that forces more the ininteractive jungle farming style, so even less ganks. And that is no fun.

Also, if you are thinking about the chance of giving the gold buff to get gold on other champions i remind you for that there is already Dragon.

Lumus Avatar1 votes

What if buffing the amount of gold earned from champion kills and assists, only? No extra gold for jungle mobs. They would still have the as buff to improve clear time if they want to stay in the jungle, but if they want the extra gold, they gotta get out and help the laners?

Decrit1 votes

Better, but still problematic because assassins would be favored again, since they have better items compared to tanks, and since it does not help ganking but only reward successful ones. even with even reward between assists and kills. Still i don' t see place for this on the buffs, but more for 3v3 where ganks are mad and if put at the place of double altar would create a more intresting situation than % increase.

Lumus Avatar1 votes

Just playing devil's advocate. I'm hoping red buff stays as is.

Decrit1 votes

To be honest? me too. I mean is not perfect but allows tanks to do some damage, since they are mostly slow attackers and dot true damage helps them, while carries and assassins can always enjoy the slow + some dot damage more.

I am discussing changes because it' s not perfect, and there is always room for improvement.

Lumus Avatar1 votes

Yeah. I play all my tanks as tanks and leave my damage in the dumpster figuring low damage over a long time (thanks to sustainability) is going to be better than high damage with not enough health to get to the fight, even.

Lneacx1 votes

I think red buff can actually be enjoyed fairly well by all champions - even the most dedicated of casters should end up weaving autoattacks. Also, the speed of your autoattacks has very little impact on the effectiveness of Red: the burn ticks independent of AS, and even the slowest of autoattackers can hit often enough to keep red buff permanently applied.

Red buff's slow can also be enjoyed by all champions, even supports. Ranged supports like Janna can use it for peel or just plain harrass, while melees like Leona really can't refuse an extra permaslow + burn during all-ins.

So why do AD carries end up getting Red most of the time, then, if its performance isn't skewed towards them? I would phrase the question like this: If you could give the power to permaslow to any one player on your team, then who would you give it to? Even though the AD benefits the most for kiting, Janna could apply it just as well - so why give it to the AD? I think it's a matter of the belief that the ADC knows best who should be slowed, not that it's actually that much better in their hands. There's also the misconception that, since Red is an on-hit, it's best on auto-attackers - but everyone should be autoattacking often enough to keep it permanently applied! There's also the fact that the bonus gold and exp from clearing Red goes best on carries such as the AD anyways.

Basically, I think Red buff's power and balance right now is better than what you're suggesting. Adding AS will only skew it further in ADC's favor, and gold gen isn't a very appreciable or unique source of power.

12tales2 votes

The ADC is the highest priority target in teamfights for most comps. Thus, the champions that your team wants CCed are generally those approaching or next to your ADC. If the ADC has red buff, then the champs you want slowed are necessarily in range of the person doing the slowing - if Leona has red buff and EQs the enemy's backline, the tanks running down your Tristana will be unmolested. Which is bad.

Also, because ADCs have much higher attack speed than other roles, the 'cast time' of the slow is much lower for them than it is for other roles. Janna is gonna have to park her ass for a solid quarter second if she wants to apply red buff, while Tristana barely has to stop moving. This allows ADCs to gain more ground relative to the person they're kiting, and thus output consistent damage for a longer period of time before they have to bail.

Also, even tho some champions like Orianna might theoretically benefit from auto attacking, the risk of standing within 550 units of the enemy doesn't necessarily justify the very marginal increase in damage from standing 800 units away and Q-Wing fools.

Lneacx1 votes

Range and 'cast' time influencing how early the slow gets out ... that sounds like a compelling reason for AD carries to hold Red over other roles, good catch.

Do you think putting Red on a non-ADC is simply weaker or entirely useless?

12tales2 votes

Probably weaker. Someone like Udyr can definitely make solid use of Red Buff in teamfights, and giving red buff to a splitpusher like Nidalee or Irelia is a valid strategy. In most comps, tho, ADCs will be able to make the best use of it.

cshakes2 votes

Typically, the ADC is the champion with the highest range, so they have the easiest time applying it. Janna's range is a measly 475, whereas lategame, ADCs achieve ranges of 500 (Sivir) to 850 (Twitch ult). Apart from Annie (625), Zilean (600), Anivia (600) and Zyra (575) all mages and supports are 550 or less.

The average maximum range of ADCs is around 604 (Twitch counts as 850, Tristana counts as 703, Jinx counts as 700). The average minimum range of ADCs is 548 (Twitch & Tristana count as 550, Jinx counts as 525). The average maximum range of all ranged champions is 547. (Twitch counts as 850, Gnar counts as 485.) The average minimum range of all ranged champions is 511. (Twitch counts as 550, Gnar counts as 400.)

Knight Devout1 votes

I'm all in, except for the gold generation. Killing a jungler with the red buff would then grant 300+X where X is the amount of gold generated by the buff. It would help to offset the gap when behind, but what would happen if the team who already holds the advantage would steal it? Make the gap even bigger. Sure, stealing red involves risks, but if one team is ahead, they could use their lead to secure jungle buffs and deny the enemy team even more gold while giving that to their carry.

The extra Attack Speed is neat, tho. It ends up being useful even for tank junglers (AS is always a good stat for clearing camps faster). Sure, it works better with AD junglers than AP junglers, but it's also true that blue buff is better for AP junglers than AD junglers.

VincenteIlForte1 votes

@ Lneacx I agree that Red buff can be enjoyed by every role currently, heavily favors the ADC/Marksman roles, and may not be as undervalued as i seemed to make it. I just want to suggest how to make red buff more flexible in it's use, rather than seeing an ADC with it 24/7. I also had the idea of trying to make it a priority for players. For an example: As seen in competitive/high level play, the second blue is near mandatory on the Mid lane, so why not have a more flexible option for Mid?

   [Mid-Laner]: "I think I'm behind in Lane, do I go with the offensive pick with 2nd Blue? Or do I go more defensively with a 2nd Red, and know that I can stay safe and keep up in lane." 

Granted that won't be everyone's mindset but the point is made. I want to try to make Red worth stealing and controlling, just like blue buff currently is.


@ Anyone against the Gold Generation aspect I was thinking having the buff be something like (just throwing numbers for sake of an example):

  • Early game - +7 gold / sec; +15% attack speed; 10% slow on AA
  • Mid Game - +5 gold / sec; +15% attack Speed; 15% slow on AA
  • Late Game - +3 Gold / sec; +15% attack Speed; 20% slow on AA

Making the Gold income more valuable early with deprecating value later you go into the game, making kills and minions more valuable later. And I'm also for making the Gold generation part of the buff die quicker than the rest of the buff, if it makes it more balanced. I do not wish to replace the value of Dragon by any means. This Red would only affect a single champion, and the gold gained from Red would be nothing compared to Dragon's global gold and EXP.

I'm thinking of possibly adding the slow onto Spells/Abilities? Have it at a (for a random number based on the above fake numbers) 5% slow instead of the buffs 20% AA slow?

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