Kindred JUST Became Viable

GodlyBane·Jul 25, 2018·11 votes·7,228 views

And now you are halfing wolves attack speed, and giving her ult 20 seconds more cd, most people actually agreed when i asked that she is in an ALRIGHT spot right now, but no. The moment Kindred becomes any type of viable, they nerf her to the ground take a look

Kindred W: Wolf attack speed scaling decreased from 50% to 25%

Kindred R: +20 seconds CD for each rank

Like this is bs, she literally finally became playable again for 2 goddamn patches and then they nerf her to the ground. Make up your mind rito, u want kindred to be a champion or not?

59 Comments

woodvsmurphJul 25, 20187 votes

She is more than playable; she's like top 2 jg right now and has more power than required to be viable. She's supposed to win through skill - kinda like lee sin. But right now she can win through sheer force/stats no skill required. If you play a melee top and she ganks you away from your tower, you better have a good escape or you're basically guaranteed dead where you'd have a chance against other junglers. The problem with people is, they can't be happy with something just being viable and taking some skill to win with. They just want broken stuff where they can braindead win with. Well I picked quinn top vs a melee, gg I win. I picked talon mid vs a teemo, gg I win. Or something like that. Rather than... I used my champ's kit better than you did, I win. Or I played the macro game better and outplayed you in teamfight... I win.

Champs are supposed to win off skill moreso than pure out-statting someone. Hence why everyone gets upset with mundo recently. And kindred was overbuffed to much the same situation - pure stupid out-statting; no skill required.

GodlyBaneJul 25, 20182 votes

I can definitely argue about the skill part, she does have a lot of skill expression, her R + E combo and getting it off and escaping properlyby auto cancelling and wall hopping, early game kiting, etc, the wolf mechanics will practically mean NOTHING now because of how bad wolf will be. pretty much any champ ahead takes no skill, any adc, graves 2 shotting you, rengar R + Q one shot, any champ that is ahead will take not that much skill, but i gaurantee you no new player level 40 down will know how to play kindred, that is saying something.

Kindred is basically skill intensive as she has the strangest jungling route, a lot of counterplay, strange mechanics, etc. no hate to you tho, im just showing you that shes in a perfectly balanced spot and riot is removing her from the game yet again

NovalasJul 25, 201810 votes

I would disagree with her being in a "perfectly balanced spot". We buffed her a few patches in a row - the bugfix turned out to be a lot bigger of a buff than we expected so we're handling that accordingly. The R line nerf is directed more towards her pro play presence.

I'm incredibly doubtful that the changelist on PBE will make her unplayable, only move her down from the top.

AirKingNeoJul 25, 20182 votes

Then why nerf the ultimate if the ultimate isn't what makes kindred overpowered?

It's clearly the recent change that gave Kindred healing that pushed them over the edge, so why make changes to their ultimate to have a 3-minute cooldown rank 1? Doesn't make sense.

Beatrice fallsJul 25, 20182 votes

Because they have no idea what they doin lmao

NovalasJul 25, 20185 votes

The R line has two factors involved; one, the R is more powerful in coordinated environments and hits her pro play presence. The other reason is because, it's a nerf to Kindred without heavily impacting the character's satisfaction towards the average player while also theoretically positively impacting all players in the game. Kindred R as a spell is a cool spell - When used frequently, however, it's something I'd more heavily lean into saying is less "fun" for all parties involved.

GinoSoldierJul 25, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Novalas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G6QG1YYW,comment-id=00010000000000000001,timestamp=2018-07-25T20:07:59.775+0000)

The R line has two factors involved; one, the R is more powerful in coordinated environments and hits her pro play presence. The other reason is because, it's a nerf to Kindred without heavily impacting the character's satisfaction towards the average player while also theoretically positively impacting all players in the game. Kindred R as a spell is a cool spell - When used frequently, however, it's something I'd more heavily lean into saying is less "fun" for all parties involved.

But; why specifically nerf the most iconic part of her, THE spell that has an unique identity across every and all champions, when a 5-20 damage reduction on Q, or a base AD reduction might just put her back in line without breaking anything? Kindred's R is a balanced, fair skill with obvious, clear counterplay; I'd honestly call it one of the best ultimates in the entire game.

I'm gonna be honest and apologize for it in advance, but; In a context where everyone seems to be screaming about how high damage is in the game, feels like the last thing you should be doing is nerfing a champion's unique defensive ability, it just seems like the wrong thing to go for.

The Yetii RiderJul 25, 20181 votes

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but you are making a pretty bold assertion here.

By what metric do you claim that a higher R cooldown doesn't heavily impact the average player's satisfaction? And what is an 'average player'? Are you talking about Plat+ like usual, because that is most certainly not the average player.

SugeMinPikkJul 26, 20182 votes

Even Rioters can't help calling Kindred "her" xd failure of a double-champion

ThePikolJul 27, 20181 votes

These changes are not "balancing", they are nerfs. They don't hit anything that make Kindred too strong (they are not, but you apparently think otherwise). Thay will just result doing nothing and you will nerf Kindred in other places too in next patch, won't you? Maybe go to Kindred mains Reddit and see what their mains think what the issue is as you clearly have no idea

Chromatic EagleJul 25, 20181 votes

"Her"

[sg-ahri-3]

xelakerJul 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Novalas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G6QG1YYW,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-07-25T18:43:48.623+0000) The R line nerf is directed more towards her pro play presence.

Those words are cancer. Catering towards pro play has fked this game hard.

pika pika achuJul 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Novalas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G6QG1YYW,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-07-25T18:43:48.623+0000)

I would disagree with her being in a "perfectly balanced spot". We buffed her a few patches in a row - the bugfix turned out to be a lot bigger of a buff than we expected so we're handling that accordingly. The R line nerf is directed more towards her pro play presence.

I'm incredibly doubtful that the changelist on PBE will make her unplayable, only move her down from the top.

I 100% agree, please nerf.

RiotRiot WherehouseJul 25, 20185 votes

I'm incredibly doubtful that the changelist on PBE will make her unplayable, only move her down from the top.

Kindred is a they~[slayer-jinx-wink]

GodlyBaneJul 25, 20181 votes

[zombie-nunu-bummed]

La BelloJul 25, 20182 votes

If her gameplay was done properly it wouldve been a "they". as stands its Lamb who does literally everything and wolf is a annoying forgettable gnat that OCCASIONALLY might nip at someone for 5 magic damage.

LarrietJul 25, 20181 votes

I always comment it to, but I feel rude. :*

ThePikolJul 27, 20182 votes

If Wolf attack speed will come live it will be "she" again, just when we started to see Wolf doing something

ThePikolJul 27, 20182 votes

Why not reverting attack speed buff on Q you have them? Halving Wolf attack speed will make him insignificant once again. Just when we started to see Wolf doing something other than giving cd on Q

NovalasJul 27, 20182 votes

Firmly believe that the Q atkspd steroid brings a lot more satisfaction towards the Kindred player than Wolf attacks scaling with atkspd. Would rather nerf the abilities that have less gameplay involved.

Chromatic EagleJul 27, 20181 votes

What about the lack of satisfaction in having Wolf be active?

KetiJul 27, 20181 votes

you're not wrong. The extra attackspeed makes them feel much better when stuck with no marks.

I'd argue the heal should have been what should go though, kindred was fine before they gave it back.

Kindred ult though is the defining aspect of the kit and probably has the most gameplay involved, "separating good kindreds from the great" and all that. Longer CD on ult in early/mid can also exacerbate her failure states. Especially in the current solo queue meta with damage everywhere and divers/skirmishers. Meanwhile the heal as a mechanic almost plays out in a win-more fashion, which lets you proc it several times in a winning fight to heal back up, but does basically nothing if you just get booty blasted. I certainly wouldn't miss it.

ThePikolJul 29, 20181 votes

I don't know, I would rather have W heal removed, then see how it goes and if Kindred would still be too good nerf Q attack speed a little. Halving Wolf attack speed while also adding 20s to R seems like a big nerf. There are others champions that are overpowered for way longed than Kindred was now and I don't really see such hard nerfs to them

GodlyBaneJul 31, 20181 votes

her heal is the only thing keeping her viable dude..

ThePikolJul 31, 20181 votes

Nah, it's so miniscule that you don't even see it. If you can kite camps you don't need it

Dr DogJul 25, 20181 votes

none of that is an excuse to completely gut her while pretty much every other champ would get a tiny slap on the wrist, completely halving a ability is 100% no the way to go

SEKAIJul 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

She's supposed to win through skill - kinda like lee sin. But right now she can win through sheer force/stats no skill required. [...]

The problem is that their entire kit is based around stat-checking their opponents. The only element of skill is the "zone" placement, which can be tactical but it really doesn't matter either way until like MLG level, and that's it.

This is to say, her stat-checking as you are referring to, is there since their inception and not something that just happened to have occurred recently.

woodvsmurphJul 26, 20181 votes

No, her entire kit is around using mobility to stay out of your range and deal damage. And to negate any engage/burst you manage to get off that would otherwise kill her or one of her teammates via her ult. She plays the "you can't catch me" game like vayne does - using mobility and disengage/kite to make up for being shorter ranged. If she were meant to be pure stat check, then she'd stand still while dueling a melee opponent and let them walk right up to her and fight back while she turreted them down. But that's not how she plays.

SEKAIJul 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

No, her entire kit is around using mobility to stay out of your range and deal damage. And to negate any engage/burst you manage to get off that would otherwise kill her or one of her teammates via her ult. She plays the "you can't catch me" game like vayne does - using mobility and disengage/kite to make up for being shorter ranged. If she were meant to be pure stat check, then she'd stand still while dueling a melee opponent and let them walk right up to her and fight back while she turreted them down. But that's not how she plays.

As I was saying, while they certainly can play with kites and all, but their kit doesn't really require that fundamentally given outside of their Q, the rest of their kit including passive directly encourages stat-checking, with arguably the largest culprit being ulti. Kindred's kit basically is just about setting up a choke point and overwhelm the opponents with superior stats within it, or chasing the opponent down with hops and destroy them with their AA boosted from farming marks and whatnot.

If they have any gameplay problem, it's at the design in my eyes, rather than a balance problem.

woodvsmurphJul 27, 20181 votes

You have dashes and a giant aoe slow that exists for a decent duration. Combined with redbuff slow that is a ton of cc and mobility advantage vs almost anyone early on. This is why she's so damn scary and effective in early fights. I'm not talking anything about how she scales into the game; which isn't too shabby. I'm looking primarily at her early ability to duel, counter-jungle, and gank lanes. She's insanely strong at these.... probably a bit too good at punishing melee toplaners especially due to the tandem slow of redbuff and wolf. Combined with her low cd hop and her ability to STAY at range while doing all her damage makes it far easier to gank with her than many other junglers while removing real counterplay that others such as elise or lee offer. Sure they can match her initial dmg and/or cc and mobility, but then they either have to commit and enter melee range and be punishable or they have to back off and be happy with the dmg and cc they got off and leave. Kindred is non-commital continued harass/dps... much like a jungler version of zoe. Other champs also tend to pay for this a bit more than kindred by not scaling as well as she does.

So either she needs to be less punishing early to play against or she needs to scale less well into the game. Riot kinda took a swing at both. Not a fatal one... not by a long shot. She should now be in a spot where GOOD kindred players can still use her KIT and win both early and later in the game, but bad kindred players who use her kit poorly or not at all FAIL rather than win despite the other person(s) playing better than them. In essence, it's no different than the changes to ahri which reduced her damage if she fails to land charm, but buffed it if she does land it. They are making it so GOOD players win because they play the champ well and UNSKILLED players can't win simply by pure stat-check. You don't have to like it... but you can't honestly say it's unfair or going to make her unplayable.

Daddy AntsJul 25, 20185 votes

She isn't close to balanced.

These nerfs are deserved.

SwiftKitten88Jul 25, 20184 votes

yeah, idk wtf riot is doing.. i LOVE seeing Kindred in my games, she has so much counter-play to work around. she isn't "inherently broken" but can become so if u don't play the map correctly. she is a champions that take game knowledge to beat rather than just mechanical skill. and i LOVE that. and i wish i could see her even more often.

i also wish i could PLAY her, but as a markmans type jungler who needs to kite, i will never be able to so with my shitty mechanics. thats why i love simple champions like Nidalee that rely on game knowledge and predicting the enemy rather than mechanical skill.

Summonah12369Jul 25, 20183 votes

{quoted}

yeah, idk wtf riot is doing.. i LOVE seeing in my games, she has so much counter-play to work around. she isn't "inherently broken" but can become so if u don't play the map correctly. she is a champions that take game knowledge to beat rather than just mechanical skill. and i LOVE that. and i wish i could see her even more often.

i also wish i could PLAY her, but as a markmans type jungler who needs to kite, i will never be able to so with my shitty mechanics. thats why i love simple champions like that rely on game knowledge and predicting the enemy rather than mechanical skill.

Who the fuck said Nidalee is simple.

SwiftKitten88Jul 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Who the fuck said Nidalee is simple.

i do? i am rank 230 worldwide in nidalee matery, and top 50 NA her actual mechanics are brain dead simple, the hard part about her is watching your opponents, knowing when u can go in.. she has no "get out of jail free" card, like most assassins.. u make once bad pounce in.. your dead.. she is all decision making and prediction.. and takes a great deal of game knowledge, but her actual MECHANICS are VERY simple.

Summonah12369Jul 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

i do? i am rank 230 worldwide in nidalee matery, and top 50 NA her actual mechanics are brain dead simple, the hard part about her is watching your opponents, knowing when u can go in.. she has no "get out of jail free" card, like most assassins.. u make once bad pounce in.. your dead.. she is all decision making and prediction.. and takes a great deal of game knowledge, but her actual MECHANICS are VERY simple.

Yeah I main her, she's gonna feel easier once you master or learn her combos n'shit. And for a beginner, learning all her little tricks and combos can take forever (coming from experience). I main her myself, she can be hard at times. She's not that braindead like Master Yi jfc.

SwiftKitten88Jul 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Yeah I main her, she's gonna feel easier once you master or learn her combos n'shit. And for a beginner, learning all her little tricks and combos can take forever (coming from experience). I main her myself, she can be hard at times. She's not that braindead like Master Yi jfc.

little tricks? like what

u land a spear, you go to kitty form, pounce in swipe and takedown.. or just takedown..

its the same combo every time.

i mean sure there are high level things u can do like swapping to human form mid pounce to get in AA range for a item 3100 proc kill. on extremely low targets

or if an enemy is low enough to kill without an empowered takedown, you can land a spear on the person protecting them pounce on them and them flash pounce to the low hp target.. but how often do u honestly get to USE those?

its all game knowledge... there is only 1 combo on her land a spear.. and choose whether or not to go in. the hard part is game knowledge, knowing when u CAN go in safely. her MECHANICS are simple.

Summonah12369Jul 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

little tricks? like what

u land a spear, you go to kitty form, pounce in swipe and takedown.. or just takedown..

its the same combo every time.

i mean sure there are high level things u can do like swapping to human form mid pounce to get in AA range for a proc kill. on extremely low targets

or if an enemy is low enough to kill without an empowered takedown, you can land a spear on the person protecting them pounce on them and them flash pounce to the low hp target.. but how often do u honestly get to USE those?

its all game knowledge... there is only 1 combo on her land a spear.. and choose whether or not to go in. the hard part is game knowledge, knowing when u CAN go in safely. her MECHANICS are simple.

I guess that's one good point, but still for beginners it can take some time to learn her combo. And yea then comes the much harder part... learning WHEN to do her combo, I learned that the hard way. Only knowing her combo and not knowing the limits. That's something that's important to learn about her cus she can't just jump in 1v5 with her combo, atleast, if she's not super fed.

SwiftKitten88Jul 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I guess that's one good point, but still for beginners it can take some time to learn her combo. And yea then comes the much harder part... learning WHEN to do her combo, I learned that the hard way. Only knowing her combo and not knowing the limits. That's something that's important to learn about her cus she can't just jump in 1v5 with her combo, atleast, if she's not super fed.

lol she cant even do that IF she is super fed.. but again.. that's game knowledge NOT mechanics. she DOES tahe a grat deal of game knowledge... knowing when u can go in for a kill and when u cant, THAT takes practice.. but that is game knowledge.. its not.. click accuracy and perfect stutter stepping and kiting between autos like kindrid and other ADC's take

Summonah12369Jul 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

lol she cant even do that IF she is super fed.. but again.. that's game knowledge NOT mechanics. she DOES tahe a grat deal of game knowledge... knowing when u can go in for a kill and when u cant, THAT takes practice.. but that is game knowledge.. its not.. click accuracy and perfect stutter stepping and kiting between autos like kindrid and other ADC's take

Why did that reply have so many spelling mistakes? Your other replies and comments seemed to be better worded.

SwiftKitten88Jul 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Why did that reply have so many spelling mistakes? Your other replies and comments seemed to be better worded. i normally go back and edit them out.

DuskDaUmbreonJul 25, 20184 votes

Kindred is just too strong right now, and everyone knows it.

This nerf isn't too immense, either. The W nerf is just a partial revert on the most recent buffs.

Honestly, the biggest issue was the W heal return. Remove that, and Kindred is as fixed as they can be.

GaliöJul 25, 20183 votes

She got 2 small buffs, 2 HUGE buffs, and some bug fixes and QoL changes..she isnt balanced she is absolutely the strongest jungler atm. Not even competition with other junglers cause of how much higher she is.

What are u smoking?

Summonah12369Jul 25, 20182 votes

Kindred item 3070

º Kindred ºJul 25, 20182 votes

but hey lets keep quinn unchanged after being in 3 positions top pick and almost every single assasin op for an entire season :>

HaIlMonitorJul 25, 20182 votes

This bitch needs nerfed hard until they rework her ult.

Daddy AntsJul 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

This bitch needs nerfed hard until they rework her ult.

Spoken like a true Assassin player.

Did Kindred deny you too many 1 shots or something?

HaIlMonitorJul 26, 20181 votes

Its an ult that should be on Janna/Taric style champ, not on an ADC. (or frankly not be around). It allows Kindred to be a bad player and benifit from it by denying stuff whether its kills, Dragons, or Barons because she randomly showed up and bought her team time. Its pathetic.

Pokemonred200Jul 27, 20181 votes

Kindred ult keeps anyone on either team from dying. A bad Kindred player will use it selfishly, and often times get their entire team killed because they saved a key person on the enemy team from dying long enough for them to get their cooldowns up, while the rest of the team evened out the playing field by whittling down health bars. It's a screaming death trap.

To be quite frank though? For a champion that's all about death, the 'nobody dies' circle doesn't fit too well thematically anyway.

HaIlMonitorJul 27, 20181 votes

To be quite frank though? For a champion that's all about death, the 'nobody dies' circle doesn't fit too well thematically anyway.

That is basically what I mean. Kit/play-style first and for most it doesn't fit, and thematically it doesn't. In my personal opinion it was more of a slapped on ult then a well designed one. Like swap her ult with Ivern and I wouldn't even question them.