ARAM and Oracle's Elixir

Kittytravel··2 votes·2,518 views

I'm a pretty avid ARAM player (I left SR a long time ago in favor of a gamemode that I could blame RNG on) and with the recent work from Riot in balancing ARAM I figured I'd go ahead and bring this up here in hopes they see it and possibly try some of the changes.

So I'll start out by saying: this is a constructive point of view on the item and a possible workaround to address the issues it brings and helps with. I'm not raging about Oracles Elixir but it's hard to not acknowledge that the 300 gold 5 minute purchase is a cut above traditional stealth detection and does a little more than just "hurt" a champion at times. I'll go ahead and list out the pro's and cons of the current stealth addressing consumable. Pro's: Takes care of teemo's incredibly high power creep in a singular lane with his heavily damaging ultimate. Deals with AP shaco's high powered W fear and damage tool. Con's: Guts AD Shaco as his Q is no longer providing the invaluable kit completion it usually would. Guts all other Teemo builds (Attack Speed Teemo, AD Teemo, etc) by removing his stealth passive (this will still be relevant after his rework if it hasn't gone live.) Makes it significantly harder for Kha'zix, Rengar, and Talon to function as assassins when they can see you through your ultimate.

So the problem is you'd need to create a solution that addresses both Teemo and Shaco's trap builds without gutting the other 5 possibilities but not making them overtly powerful; so the suggestions would be as follows. Vision Plant from SR: There would be four total on each side of the map, one behind the first tower (theoretically) and a second behind the inhib somewhere. The plant bulbs would regrow every 1 minute and 15 seconds and provide the same vision enhancement they do in SR. At max Teemo build he can have a 11 second restock timer on his shrooms so using the plants effectively you could limit his shrooms-on-map to 6 or 7. This is not my preferred work around as people can easily troll with these and abuse them to force your team to lose and so we come to solution 2.

Add Oracle Lens to ARAM. Yes this is a rocky path because up to five people could theoretically purchase this trinket item so to address that Oracle Lens would need to have a gold cost implemented, likely somewhere around 750-1250 gold to ensure it's only being purchased when necessary and not in excess. The cooldown would have to be a flat 90 seconds I believe because with 5 people on a team using it (and it's mobile 10 second duration) you could have a 50 second up time 40 second downtime in proper coordination.

Lastly, how about just adjust Oracles Elixir to not reveal actual player units and only show red silhouettes as the summoners rift Oracle Lens does currently? Akali, Kha'zix, Rengar, Shaco, Talon, etc are all much less fun to play if even one person on the enemy team knows that buying Oracles Elixir will gimp an entire kit element and they typically inform the other players of this fact. The item is vital to stopping a Teemo/Shaco death trap but it shouldn't cause other champions to be nigh unplayable with it's purchase.

14 Comments

SomeKat2 votes

"I'm not raging about Oracles Elixir" yes you are.

The only champion Exlir drastically effects is Evelyn, that's it. 1 Champion. Invisibility is so disgustingly broken, it would hold winrate even if Oracles was Free for most other Champions.

Teemo has a 57% winrate with 'such a huge disadvantage' in ARAM Btw. Meanwhile, a Teamfight Champion like Katarina, you would assume would do great in ARAM because it's nothing but potential resets and AoE damage, has a 47% winrate. And this is with giving her an artificial 8% bonus damage and resist for nothing.

In case you don't know, Teemo is actually the second highest winrate Champion in ARAM("God" tier). I'm sure you know this though, you're an avid ARAM player- but my point here is that the idea Oracles isn't fair, is a really nooby sentiment when considering how over-powered invisibility is. Your proposed change would mean Teemo is an Auto-Win like S4 Viegar/Ziggs. And it's in the name that these champions are being countered, when they really aren't, and have decent winrates in ARAM. There are 30 champions with worse WR than Akali that don't have Invisibility at all. So why give her and Talon special treatment? Oh wait; we already do:

Talon: -5% damage taken Akali: +18% damage dealt & -8% damage taken Evelynn: +15% damage dealt & -10% damage taken Rengar: +5% damage dealt & -10% damage taken Khazix: +8% damage dealt & -10% damage taken

Kittytravel2 votes
  • "m not raging about Oracles Elixir." yes you are. If I was I'd want it removed; but I don't I'm simply proposing what I think is a healthy change for champions that are greatly hindered by it.

  • "The only champion Exlir drastically effects is Evelyn, that's it. 1 Champion. Invisibility is so disgustingly broken, it would hold winrate even if Oracles was Free for most other Champions." Sorry but... what? How does Oracles affect Evelynn in the slightest?... You do realize her detection radius is wider than the Oracle Elixir correct? Oracle Elixir grants stealth detection for 600 units, Evelynn is 700 units for detection. Which is literally why I did not mention her; I don't think you understand that champions mechanics.

  • "Teemo has a 57% winrate with 'such a huge disadvantage' in ARAM Btw. Meanwhile, a Teamfight Champion like Katarina, you would assume would do great in ARAM because it's nothing but potential resets and AoE damage, has a 47% winrate. And this is with giving her an artificial 8% bonus damage and resist for nothing." First off; Katarina is SUBSTANTIALLY harder to play than Teemo, comparing the two is a brash disregard of skill ceilings on your part. Teemo's 57% winrate, because I'm an avid aram player, is because people don't buy oracles. Since ARAM isn't in divisions we can't do what the rest of the Summoners Rift champion list gets to do which is check by rank. Here's an example: In Bronze the winrate of Teemo Support is currently 54%. Notch that up to Platinum and it goes down to 52% Teemo toplane and teemo support becomes Nonexistant. On top of that the build becomes on-hit not AP shrooms which is common in ARAM. We can't however look at game analytics of ARAM when Teemo is in the game VS when oracles elixir is purchased, and if you'd like to disagree and say "Oh no everyone buys Elixir every single Teemo ARAM game." then I won't argue nor will I concede that point.

  • "In case you don't know, Teemo is actually the second highest winrate Champion in ARAM("God" tier). I'm sure you know this though, you're an avid ARAM player- but my point here is that the idea Oracles isn't fair, is a really nooby sentiment when considering how over-powered invisibility is. Your proposed change would mean Teemo is an Auto-Win like S4 Viegar/Ziggs. And it's in the name that these champions are being countered, when they really aren't, and have decent winrates in ARAM. There are 30 champions with worse WR than Akali that don't have Invisibility at all. So why give her and Talon special treatment? Oh wait; we already do:

Talon: -5% damage taken Akali: +18% damage dealt & -8% damage taken Evelynn: +15% damage dealt & -10% damage taken Rengar: +5% damage dealt & -10% damage taken Khazix: +8% damage dealt & -10% damage taken"

Thanks for pointing these out. I'll return in kind. Talon Winrate: 48% Akali: 46% Evelynn: 44% (Also irrelevant because read above.) Rengar: 47% Kha'zix: 48% I'll also add Shaco: 46%

Please understand these are melee non-safe champions and therefore usually have trouble to begin with in ARAM until mid-to-late builds player dependent. I've seen plenty of good Rengars and Kha'zix's that come in and have 10-3 scores by the 9 minute mark, and I've seen just as many or more that go 0-17 by nine minutes. Once again this is a skill cap that's harder to reach than playing Teemo by a substantial margin; see Summoners Rift Teemo winrates by division for more information if this confuses you. In addition you seem to make the claim that "There are 30 Champions with worse WR than Akali that don't have invisibility." which is a fair point and I counter with: There are 114 Champions with a better winrate than Akali because one ability in their whole kit isn't gutted by 300 gold. The logic of "It's a really nooby sentiment when considering how over powered invisibility is" is a rather odd choice of words on your part, you seem to imply that having invisibility should immediately make a champion substantially stronger. Please continue to explain that, despite how overpowered invis is, the standings of Talon at #86 on ARAM Winrates, Kha'zix at 89, Rengar at 99, Shaco at 109, Akali 115. Despite how "overpowered" invisibility is these champions have really oddly low winrates with that thought process in mind.

I think that counters your points in a fairly concise manner.

SomeKat1 votes

{quoted}

snip

The Akali winrate is post-oracles. You cannot just say that she has a bad winrate, and then also Oracles exists, she maintains a 46% winrate WHILE oracles exists. Even remotely nerfing oracles would drastically boost the winrate of all these champions above 50%(Arguably unhealthy for invisibility assassins in ARAM.) and champions like Teemo, and Twitch would in-fact be auto-wins. Saying no one buys Oracles is a dumb argument, then why nerf it?

The main thing though is why buff invisibility and these champions? Why do they matter more than Katarina, who literally only exists for teamfighting, and has a negative winrate in ARAM? Invisibility Assassins having a higher winrate than Katarina is already stupid, but what about the countless AoE mages? I really fail to see logical argument to buff these champs outside of it being your OP. Why does Zed deserve a lower winrate than Khazix, just now as it is? Buffing Khazix makes no sense considering he already does better than Zed. Your opinion that 48% winrates are trash or something when those are extremely reasonable winrates for their kits and also, just in general. Yes there are 114 champions above Akali, but only 30 have a negative winrate. She's directly in the middle of the bottom half of Champions, 30 better, 30 worse. Not the bottom-bottom. Not even close. The lowest winrate in Diamond is Tamh Kench, why not buff him? Because he cannot turn invisible?

PS, the 18% damage bonus on Akali is the equivalent damage boost of almost 220AP. And it stacks multiplicative, with AP. Her R2 literally never-doesn't kill the thing it hits, I know because I will always trade into Akali for free aram wins. It's a great pocket pick.

Kittytravel1 votes
  • The Akali winrate is post-oracles. You cannot just say that she has a bad winrate, and then also Oracles exists, she maintains a 46% winrate WHILE oracles exists.

The Akali rework took place after Oracles Elixir was added to Howling Abyss by almost two years. So this statement makes literally no sense. If you mean her winrate didn't change after she became affected by Oracles then please phrase that correctly and supply actual data instead of making unsupported claims.

  • Even remotely nerfing oracles would drastically boost the winrate of all these champions above 50%(Arguably unhealthy for invisibility assassins in ARAM.) and champions like Teemo, and Twitch would in-fact be auto-wins. Saying no one buys Oracles is a dumb argument, then why nerf it?

Saying the nerf would drastically change the winrate of all of the champions and Teemo and Twitch would be auto-wins without any data is a dumb argument, so why bother?

  • The main thing though is why buff invisibility and these champions? Why do they matter more than Katarina, who literally only exists for teamfighting, and has a negative winrate in ARAM? Invisibility Assassins having a higher winrate than Katarina is already stupid, but what about the countless AoE mages? I really fail to see logical argument to buff these champs outside of it being your OP. Why does Zed deserve a lower winrate than Khazix, just now as it is? Buffing Khazix makes no sense considering he already does better than Zed.

No where, not one time, did I say any of this mattered more than other champions. You seem to be under the pretense that just because I want stealth champion vision only nerfs to Oracles Elixir that I don't want any other champions to be buffed as well? Wherever your logic comes from it isn't founded very well, you pulled Zed out of the air so I'll counter again: Why does every champion above Kha'zix deserve to have a higher winrate? The answer is I don't care about those champions, this is exclusively a thread about Oracles Elixir and Stealth Champions that it affects. Go spout your roundabout garbage in some other thread.

  • PS, the 18% damage bonus on Akali is the equivalent damage boost of almost 220AP. And it stacks multiplicative, with AP. Her R2 literally never-doesn't kill the thing it hits, I know because I will always trade into Akali for free aram wins. It's a great pocket pick.

I... can't even start with how actually dumb you sound here; I'm not even trying to be mean but what? 18% Damage bonus on Akali is indeed a large damage boost, but percentages don't stack multiplicative, that's literally not how that math works. Each time a percentage is added the total value gained isn't that same as multiplication. Allow me to quickly demonstrate fifth grade level math. Let's assume we give Akali a base AP of 500 and a max level Ultimate. In one equation we will use the percentage, in the other we will use the AP. For the purposes of this we will be using the second dash minimum magic damage only and then the second dash full missing health buff respectively. First one. Akali AP: 500 and 220 from your claim so 720 total VS Akali 500 AP and 18% Damage buff. 215 + 30% AP so 431 Minimum Damage. 215 + 150 = 365 + 18% of 365 = 430. Second round assuming low health target. First equation doesn't change so x2 = 862 Damage. Second equation is theoretical because no one knows how damage values actually calculate so. First possibility: 365 x 2 = 730 + 18% = 861 Second Possibility: 430 x 2 = 860. As you can see though in all cases it is only equivalent to 220 AP and does not multiply at any point. The 18% damage bonus calculates exactly as if she had 220 AP and literally nothing more. It seems like you googled around real quick, grabbed a 220 AP fact and then spouted some nonsense on the end of someones hard done math. Also here since I know you'll try this I'll just do it now. 1000 Base AP. 220 from Claim. 1220 AP. 215+30% AP = 581 Min Damage. 1162 On 30% HP Target. 1000 Base AP. 215 + 30% AP = 515 + 18% = 607. So at 1000 AP (Unrealistic in ARAM especially with Akali standard builds) that 18% finally turns into an additional 26 minimum damage and +52 with 30% HP targets.

Lastly...

  • I know because I will always trade into Akali for free aram wins. It's a great pocket pick.

Is that why you've played one Akali ARAM game in the last two years on 10/16/2017 and never again? Is that why you've done done a measly ten ARAMs in eight months? You play about as much ARAM as I do Summoners Rift so to come into a thread like this and to tout yourself as if you play it regularly is laughable at best and it really shows. This isn't a discussion about "Hey only stealth champs need buffs and no other champs". It's a discussion of whether or not the current Oracles Elixir is a healthy solution for the Teemo and Shaco trap pest problem; you've clearly missed the mark.

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

"I'm not raging about Oracles Elixir" yes you are.

The only champion Exlir drastically effects is Evelyn, that's it. 1 Champion. Invisibility is so disgustingly broken, it would hold winrate even if Oracles was Free for most other Champions.

Teemo has a 57% winrate with 'such a huge disadvantage' in ARAM Btw. Meanwhile, a Teamfight Champion like Katarina, you would assume would do great in ARAM because it's nothing but potential resets and AoE damage, has a 47% winrate. And this is with giving her an artificial 8% bonus damage and resist for nothing.

In case you don't know, Teemo is actually the second highest winrate Champion in ARAM("God" tier). I'm sure you know this though, you're an avid ARAM player- but my point here is that the idea Oracles isn't fair, is a really nooby sentiment when considering how over-powered invisibility is. Your proposed change would mean Teemo is an Auto-Win like S4 Viegar/Ziggs. And it's in the name that these champions are being countered, when they really aren't, and have decent winrates in ARAM. There are 30 champions with worse WR than Akali that don't have Invisibility at all. So why give her and Talon special treatment? Oh wait; we already do:

Talon: -5% damage taken Akali: +18% damage dealt & -8% damage taken Evelynn: +15% damage dealt & -10% damage taken Rengar: +5% damage dealt & -10% damage taken Khazix: +8% damage dealt & -10% damage taken

Twitch Vayne Kaisa the funny thing is their all adcs with stealth that despite having oracle's elixir are still disgusting to deal with Plus oracles elixir isn't as good as a item 2055 or item 3364 because with the first i could clear teemo shrooms out of bushes without stepping into a bush to do so, and the second has a larger radius at the price of being timed

SomeKat1 votes

{quoted}

Twitch Vayne Kaisa the funny thing is their all adcs with stealth that despite having oracle's elixir are still disgusting to deal with Plus oracles elixir isn't as good as a item 2055 or item 3364 because with the first i could clear teemo shrooms out of bushes without stepping into a bush to do so, and the second has a larger radius at the price of being timed

sweeper is absolutely not better than exlir, but I would also prefer wards. Do I think ARAM should have wards? no. but I would prefer them.

If ARAM adds wards, we might aswell delete the bushes then too. the excessive wards in SR is lazy game design tbh.

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

sweeper is absolutely not better than exlir, but I would also prefer wards. Do I think ARAM should have wards? no. but I would prefer them.

If ARAM adds wards, we might aswell delete the bushes then too. the excessive wards in SR is lazy game design tbh.

I feel like control wards would be funny, so many people would fight to get money by killing the ward, Honestly if they made something likeitem 3147 for other roles just in aram if would be a nice solution to trap spamming champions but at the same time would be obnoxious Honestly have no idea how they could make it better in aram

7thHeaven1 votes

Fun fact: You dont need item 2047 to see Twitch

SomeKat1 votes

{quoted}

Fun fact: You dont need item 2047 to see Twitch

100 bonus units is a lot for a champion that has 550 base range and is auto based, but I could see why you think that way and I agree with parts of it. The thing about it, is it really only protects the Oracles user slightly better, not the team. And then he also has R.

7thHeaven1 votes

He will go in to detect range when he gonna to penta your team [slayer-jinx-catface] Else, he will never let you see with item 2013

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

Fun fact: You dont need item 2047 to see Twitch

still really helpful against him and people who hide in bushes

7thHeaven1 votes

50 detect range is not worth for 300 gold

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

50 detect range is not worth for 300 gold

i mean +50 range buff would be great buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

item 2055

Ah yes everyone feed around the control ward to get that sweet sweet Gold and vision denial XD

Or they could just give the item 3348 trinket that you could pick up instead of the biscuit if you felt like it

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