What exactly is the plan with veigar?

Vroggoth··31 votes·3,510 views

Equilibrium (Passive) mana regen now increased by 1.5% from 1% for each 1% of mana missing Baleful Strike (Q) cooldown lowered to 5 at all ranks from 7/6.5/6/5.5/5 Baleful Strike (Q) range increased to 950 from 900 [Note: The current Live value is 850] Event Horizon (E) range reverted to 700 from 750 [Note: Range is now back to current live values]

The buffs on the pbe are nice but it feels like they're purposely avoiding his main issue, which is that his W requires more luck than skill to land. Why isn't it being changed/buffed? It's a huge part of his damage and right now it just feels awkward and out of place in his kit.

76 Comments

xXKUR0S4K1Xx16 votes

Yeah the problem in his kit lies in his W. It's nearly impossible to land in the laning phase and even in teamfights you probably won't land it on any squishy.

BeerOfRoot48435 votes

I'm guessing the plan is to make him a generic mage that pokes people, as opposed to seeing play in the LCS ever again.

ThePlasticSpork1 votes

As opposed to a generic mage that stuns then 100-0s, like just about every other burst mage in the game that Veigar was competing with before. He wasn't unique before, he was just another burst mage with some extra stat sticks thrown in that happened to have an ultimate-strength ability on his E.

He was never played in the LCS for any reason other than his stun. He wasn't played because of his mage playstyle, he wasn't played because of his AP stacking mechanics, he wasn't played because of scaling off of the opponents AP scaling. If you would really rather see them completely delete midlane Veigar but leave his stun intact so he can continue to see LCS play, then you're rather delusional about what you want Veigar to be.

GloriousKaiser5 votes

He was never played in the LCS for any reason other than his stun. He wasn't played because of his mage playstyle, he wasn't played because of his AP stacking mechanics, he wasn't played because of scaling off of the opponents AP scaling. If you would really rather see them completely delete midlane Veigar but leave his stun intact so he can continue to see LCS play, then you're rather delusional about what you want Veigar to be.

You could really say this for any champion. Pros could care less about "interesting mechanics".

Ahri Charm picks off stragglers. Who cares about that rotating foxfire? Or that spellvamp? Annie Tibbers Initiation. Who cares about the E? Or Tibbers pet? Orianna Ball transfer Ult Actually, all her abilties are pretty useful for any situation. Xerath Poke Artillery Sniper Ult. He's picked for what his kit revolves around. Lissandra That utility team fight kit. Suppress the ADC with the click of a button? Or initiate with ult for free Zhonyas?

ThePlasticSpork2 votes

Except every single one of each of those champions with the exception of Annie are picked because of their kits as a whole, not one specific thing they do. Veigar was specifically cited as a pro player as being a "stun bot". Annie occupies a similar space, where she's used pretty much entirely for Tibbers stun and the rest of her kit is kind of irrelevant. But at least Annie needs to cast the rest of her abilities to get her stun up. Veigar, as far as the LCS is concerned, basically only has his E. It says a lot about him if he has only one useful ability to professional players but is picked by them anyways.

However, every single one of Ahri's abilities are important to why she's strong. You brought up her least important ability, sure, but Ahri's foxfire is more crucial to her LCS play than Veigar's Q or W was to his. Her passive combined with her good mana costs give her near indefinite laning compared to other mages - remove it, and she would fall off in play. Her Q is the brunt of her upfront burst, forms most of her poke, and gives her good kiting - remove it, she would fall off in play. Her W gives her reliable multi-target damage, but I will concede it is her least important ability and doesn't contribute much to her overall strength. Her E gives her absurd pick potential - remove it, she falls off from play. Her ult gives her absurd kiting, absurd chasing, strong repositioning, and decent damage. Her ult is extremely important to her, whereas LCS stunbot support Veigar doesn't care about his ult nearly as much as he cares about his E.

Orianna's kit as a whole is insanely useful. Unlike Veigar, her power budget is pretty evenly spread among her abilities, whereas 90 percent of Veigar's is contained in his E.

Once again, Xerath's power budget is spread around much better. His passive, Q, W, E, and R are all extremely important to how he's played. His Q forms the brunt of his poke and comprises half of his waveclear patterns - without it, he's useless. His W gives him another good long range damage/waveclear ability, as well as giving him some nice utility. His E is extremely important because it's his only defense mechanism as well as a decent ability for getting picks. His R is good for finishing stragglers as well as just plinking people who are too busy in teamfights to dodge the damage. Once again, compare to LCS stunbot Veigar, who only needs his E to do what he needs to do.

Lissandra is much the same way. Her passive, like Xeraths, contributes to near endless in-lane harass. Her Q comprises the brunt of her waveclear and poke and gives her good utility. Her W is good both offensively and defensively. Her E is her initiate and escape. Her ult is self explantory. Without any of those abilities she would be trash.

You could almost literally have taken Veigars Q or W away and he would still have been played in the LCS. That is not true for any of those champions, even Annie, because she at least needs to charge her stun with spellcasts.

OhOkYea4 votes

Not luck. Timing. Be a team player.

Vroggoth21 votes

man you're everywhere. realize what you have is an opinion and that repeating it over and over isn't going to make it a fact.

OhOkYea2 votes

{quoted}

man you're everywhere. realize what you have is an opinion and that repeating it over and over isn't going to make it a fact.

My opinion is correct, though.

DrCyanide13 votes

So, why is it that Veigar's W takes as much teamwork as Yasuo's ultimate to pull off?

OhOkYea1 votes

{quoted}

So, why is it that Veigar's W takes as much teamwork as Yasuo's ultimate to pull off?

It doesn't. It just takes a bit of timing. You can't solo 1v5 anymore, sorry.

People who complain about veiger's changes are the same people that think Yi is OP because of his Q.

Vroggoth19 votes

do you even play veigar? he could never 1v5, he was basically "one shot a carry and then die" in team fights.

BuCkeT SeiZureS5 votes

don't feed the troll

Salzigorimando3 votes

Sir/Madam, I can Assure That I Have Never Owned A Troll, And Even If I Did Find One I Would Have No Idea How Or What To Feed It.

BuCkeT SeiZureS2 votes

Yes. Quite right. ^^

OhOkYea1 votes

{quoted}

do you even play veigar? he could never 1v5, he was basically "one shot a carry and then die" in team fights.

I only started playing veiger after the changes because he finally took some skill to use. Before the changes, he could just 100-0 anyone within range with little to no effort. Too easy means too boring.

Salzigorimando10 votes

I am to understand that you have, in fact, never played him prior to the apparently Dramatic alterations to his long time kit. Which has not received much in the way of criticism over the years I might add. Yet you also put forth the assertion that you are a well informed source as to the capabilities of his previous incarnation, as well as the level of skill necessary to wield that capability. Your statements appear contradictory.

OhOkYea1 votes

{quoted}

I am to understand that you have, in fact, never played him prior to the apparently Dramatic alterations to his long time kit. Which has not received much in the way of criticism over the years I might add. Yet you also put forth the assertion that you are a well informed source as to the capabilities of his previous incarnation, as well as the level of skill necessary to wield that capability. Your statements appear contradictory.

I played him a lot both before and after the changes.

Salzigorimando5 votes

While my compatriot, and indeed I like to consider everyone who plays this game as such, Appears to have allowed his, lets say passion, to get the better of him and diverged a bit from civility, I must point out he has a point.

That aside I would be most interested in your opinion of the changes overall. I would also be interested in what said changes actually are, as, like I said before, I haven't actually caught up to current events yet.

OhOkYea1 votes

{quoted}

While my compatriot, and indeed I like to consider everyone who plays this game as such, Appears to have allowed his, lets say passion, to get the better of him and diverged a bit from civility, I must point out he has a point.

That aside I would be most interested in your opinion of the changes overall. I would also be interested in what said changes actually are, as, like I said before, I haven't actually caught up to current events yet.

Basically people are mad because Veiger is no longer as easy to play as ashe.

Salzigorimando4 votes

Oh? Unfortunately I am unfamiliar with the particulars of Ashe's difficulty curve, (or indeed any of her curves, ha-ha,) as I shy away from straightforward champions such as she appears to be. I do, however, have a working knowledge of Viegar previous abilities and play style. May I ask why you label these as "easy"? I've always found Viegar to be fairly difficult to do well with, what with your gameplay intentions being telegraphed to the enemy just by picking him.

OhOkYea1 votes

{quoted}

Oh? Unfortunately I am unfamiliar with the particulars of Ashe's difficulty curve, (or indeed any of her curves, ha-ha,) as I shy away from straightforward champions such as she appears to be. I do, however, have a working knowledge of Viegar previous abilities and play style. May I ask why you label these as "easy"? I've always found Viegar to be fairly difficult to do well with, what with your gameplay intentions being telegraphed to the enemy just by picking him.

With veiger you just have 4 buttons to push. Q, W, E and R. He's very easy.

Salzigorimando5 votes

That doesn't sound like an individual champion's issue however. In fact, that appears more like a League wide phenomenon. I was hoping for something a bit more Viegar-specific perhaps?

Mr chiral center5 votes

{quoted}

With veiger you just have 4 buttons to push. Q, W, E and R. He's very easy.

Yes, quite right. I must agree with Salzigorimando though, as having 4 abilities is a very common occurrence in league. Maybe you could elucidate what part of Veigars "4 buttons" make him so "easy" to play? While his pattern did not have many branching paths, and was quite strait forward, I think "uncomplicated" might be the word you were searching for, as he was never considered "easy"..

The point Salzigorimando brings up about telegraphed intentions is also quite sound. Veigar was a real challenge to do well with, having the ability to 100-0 an opponent is of questionable use when so vulnerable after the fact.

Crushed lil kid4 votes

let me guess you are a zed/leblanc/katarina player

Crushed lil kid5 votes

never mind you are unranked and only spam team builder

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

At least Yas has a way to use his ult on his own...

Meep Man3 votes

{quoted}

My opinion is correct, though.

Im a little confused. Can you support evidence? Because theres a lot of evidence against you that his W is really weak currently.

BuCkeT SeiZureS3 votes

don't feed the troll

Keevalroy4 votes

They're purposefully ignoring it because they want to see mobility have one less counter. It's not that entertaining for the spectators when flashy plays are shut down by a button press. After all, the spectators are the core of any Esports program and should definitely be placed at a much higher value than the game's actual players right Riot?

We just saw cinderhulk released with a few tank buffs, but I'm considering making a countdown for when one or the other (or both) will be nerfed. This season has caused too much anger and confusion for me to let my guard down even a little.

UPfreely3 votes

stashu style buffs

Curling Veigar3 votes

Well, the passive buff is nice.

Just give it more time, there's another week of PBE updates coming.

Crushed lil kid3 votes

the real problem with veigar is that with a e that will never land and a w that will never land without landing e the champions has 2 moves and no mobility, survivability, nor cc.

DEN TEL0S1 votes

This sums everything up.

Yoella2 votes

Veigar lost 20% on his R ratio, but he gained a different version of Q that can (potentially) gain him more AP and quicker too. Add to that the proc on item 3285 the new Luden's Echo and his R ratio is almost back to where it was, if not better, but only at certain times rather than it being constantly powerful.

The reason they don't want to touch W much is because it's exceptionally powerful. It's an AoE with a 100% ratio. Now, as an avid Veigar player (well maybe not since 5.4) I know all too well how long the delay is, and how difficult it is to land without the stun landing first. But if they lowered the delay they'd probably have to nerf either the damage or AoE to compensate, because it truly is an immensely powerful ability.

I think they're trying to make the stun more reliable while still giving it counterplay (albeit it had counterplay before all this). The issue is that I don't think they can do this without changing the fundamental part of the stun being that it only stuns on the edges and everywhere else is completely safe. They're going to have to make the stun area larger.

3141592ab4 votes

What about a gragas q like mechanic? like where you could recast early to detonate prematurely for reduced damage?

Yoella1 votes

I think that could definitely do the trick. Great thinking!

Rrett1 votes

Overall his whole damage is nerfed and his W and E are unreliable, as in that you can't plan to actually him them.

Hellioning1 votes

I think they want him to be a poke mage.

Stacona4 votes

a reason to why veigar (solo lane) didn't get played was because his range was too short for a burst mage, even when fighting against tank he will just get destroyed- veigar is meant to be a mid range mage, not a short range or long range poke mage

Stacona1 votes

his w requires skill and teamwork to land, similar to malzahar's Null Zone where there is a lot more teamwork for the spell's effectiveness against non-minions/monsters rather than within the champion's actual kit, it is a nice touch - but i do land his w quite a pick just on movement predictions, and where else will they go, closer to me and my team to die that way? and 5.4 event horizon i was landing his trap's stun portion as often as i was pre-changes- just use his trap to force your opponent into two bad decisions of either moving closer or getting stunned either decision most likely grants your team the kill with your trap (and not i say trap and not stun, the trap is longer CC than a max ranked stun)

Reazale1 votes

Malz can land his w be himself.... using us ult.

Stacona1 votes

Malzahar and Veigar can land their W's without their team, but their team can greatly aid in that depending on the comp so there is much teamwork here- you can use it as another zoning tool as well because who goes 'oh look a massive nuke is coming down, better keeping walking because it wont do anything at all' because even if they avoid the dark matter by walking back they still walked back to allow your team to catch up and kill them

Kuroi861 votes

The buffs on the pbe are nice but it feels like they're purposely avoiding his main issue, which is that his W requires more luck than skill to land. Why isn't it being changed/buffed? It's a huge part of his damage and right now it just feels awkward and out of place in his kit.

From what I've seen and heard, Riot is throwing around ideas for what to do with W, but currently are not sure what to do. I personally am a fan of the idea of Dark Matter consuming Even Horizon upon impact in order for it's AoE to be spread all throughout the inner area.

Phil Fly1 votes

I'll be honest here, I kinda like how Veigar's W is really hard to land. In my opinion, it should do more damage, be really strong.

It should be as hard to hit as a nidalee spear, and with respect to the skill/luck needed, do a shitload of damage.

Just my opinion, though. Move on.

Lord OwlBear1 votes

It truly does seem like riot is ignoring the one thing that will bring him back from death, W speed up. Although im not going to knock extra mana regen.

Hupsis1 votes

Because landing his W has to be hard or otherwise Riot would have to nerf its damage. 1:1 AP ratio means that the spell has to have a lot of counter play. You can still land it if the enemy walks into his E or you get help from someone from your team.

Landing E became harder but it doesn't mean people won't ever get stunned by it.

Chaotic Reks1 votes

he's not a long range poke nasus. i don't know why riot is taking the "step close and disappear" concept to "i will hurt you from over here"

we already have good enough poke mages in the game already Xerath Ziggs Lux Syndra

Thumpin1 votes

It seems like Riot doesn't want Veigars to have an easy time getting a stun, so they're working on improving the rest of his kit.

Lord Malice1 votes

They really just need to fix his E, If they are gonna make it so hard to land the least they could do is cut its mana costs and CD.

Rrett1 votes

Forget about him till they full rework him in 2 years.

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