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Current Jungle Problems and PLEASE NERF ASSASSINS

Madz··14 votes·5,715 views

^Pretty much everything.

We're now back to Season 1 guys. Hyper aggressive junglers meanwhile farming junglers are useless. All you could do is to wish that your laners don't die if you're not playing a hyper aggressive jungler.

Also, imo, Riot should definitely balance around solo queues, not pro scenes. Gold, plat, or diamond, but not eSport players. Like, Rengar is always a huge problem in solos but you'll never see him in pro plays! And you won't nerf him cause of that, meanwhile, he's about to rape my mom after raping my team.

All these assassin champs are huge since people in solo queues have no ideas of how to play against them. A good assassin can just snowball and apply so much pressure. There's no counterplays against a fed assassin. Look at Katarina, Talon, Akali, they have so much success even in high elo like Master+. Have you seen Talon / Katarina in pro scenes a lot? How about Rengar? How are we supposed to play solo queue when half my team is dead? Oh, hi, ROAR, Caitlyn and Morgana deleted. Is this fair?

18 Comments

NaughtyWord5 votes

I liked some of the suggestions he made and I think he's on the right track especially with camp re-spawn timers and averaging out gold and experience awards across all camps.

I understand that it is difficult to find the middle ground between AFK jungle farming and hyper-ganking but I personally would rather deal with uninteractive junglers than be in a hyper-gank meta and my autofilled jungler not ganking.

Just sayin'

xelaker5 votes

but assassins make dank plays and sell skins....

Madz1 votes

{quoted}

but assassins make dank plays and sell skins....

I can't disagree on that....

The Bad Touch2 votes

This video made me go play a Xin game where I got red then ganked 4 times...

Won....

Lotta fun.

LTK KoRo2 votes

You should definitely balance around solo queue, not pro scene.

anyone who claims that is a clown tbh

Kovorix6 votes

I can't wait for your detialed reasoning.

okamiyasha951 votes

I'm still waiting....lol.

Śhunpo1 votes

"There's no counterplays against a fed assassin", what about CC, health stacking, Zhoyna's, peel abilities, untargetability, ranged harass, objective play, grouping....I could go on if you like.

In low elo though....there's very little counterplay against a fed assassin. But tbh they're usually smurfs so it's not really fair to say they deserve to be nerfed.

The thigh guy4 votes

{quoted}

"There's no counterplays against a fed assassin", what about CC, health stacking, Zhoyna's, peel abilities, untargetability, ranged harass, objective play, grouping....I could go on if you like.

In low elo though....there's very little counterplay against a fed assassin. But tbh they're usually smurfs so it's not really fair to say they deserve to be nerfed.

Cc counters everything. Health stacking does not work Zhonya’s would be an argument if they had cooldowns. But they don’t. Peel? Against an akali’s 4 dashes? Mkay Grouping? Half their shit is aoe. __

koshkyra4 votes

“CC” when almost every hard cc in this game is a skillshot and katarina/akali/zed have 1082 dashes and blinks per second.

“Zhonyas” when its on a 2 minute cooldown vs zed’s 40 second ult cooldown (if he even needs his ult..) and it only actually saves you (not just delaying your death) in niche situations like turret dives. Also just fuck non-mages right?

“Peel abilities” when a janna shield is like less than the damage from duskblade and electrocute/DH alone.

“Health stacking” adcs have no health items and mages have one that gives a very mediocre amount.

“Grouping” people need to realize that “strength in numbers” does not apply to a game where it takes 0.2 seconds to kill someone, not to mention you cant be grouped 100% of the game and grouping only starts towards the end of the game.

Śhunpo2 votes

"CC when almost every hard cc in this game is a skillshot and katarina/akali/zed have 1082 dashes and blinks per second."

That's where prediction comes into play, throw your skillshots at where you think, or if you know exactly how assassins play know they'll be.

It's not 1082 dashes by the way. Akali has 3-4, 2 of which are tied to a 2 MINUTE COOLDOWN ultimate, and the other being ~20 second cooldown E. Katarina has 3-4 blinks, all of which are reliant on her going to her dagger, which you can easily react to because they LAND ON THE GROUND as well as having travel time. If you die to a Kat that's entirely your fault....unless you're talking about Kat post item 3146 , in which case I do agree, the item's dumb.

Btw CC isn't just based around skillshots, point and click CC still bloody exists.

As for Zed, he's just broken in general and likely needs a rework to ever be fair. However I will say he only has 2 blinks, with his W having a travel time and his R having a very brief window where he cannot blink back and escape.

"Zhoynas'when its on a 2 minute cooldown vs zed’s 40 second ult cooldown and it only actually saves you (not just delaying your death) in niche situations like turret dives. Also just fuck non-mages right?

That's a Zed problem, not a general assassin problem. As for the other parts, no, it's not niche, you just need your team to respond accordingly, which usually never happens cause omegaLUL soloQ teammates, am I right? Fuck non-mages? GA exists, Tabi exists, Hexdrinker+Maw exist (vs Kat, Akali or Leblanc), Resolve exists.....oh, and you can build Zhoyna's on a lot of other classes, not just mages, so long as you have decent AP scalings.

You also forget one thing STOPWATCH EXISTS.

Peel abilities when a janna shield is like less than the damage from duskblade and electrocute/DH alone.

Honestly, I can't refute this, damage is wack right now. It's not just assassins that this is applicable to though, nor is it purely just Duskblade and Domination keystones.

Health stacking adcs have no health items and mages have one that gives a very mediocre amount.

item 3022 does exist, as does Overgrowth. Although to be quite honest with you if ADCs could stack health relentlessly they'd go back to being the undisputed best class in the game, which they're pretty close to being right now due to their raw damage output when ahead being honestly better than assassins'.

As for mages, I could not disagree more. If you're a mage you can generally hit ~2.7k HP with just Morello+Liandry's, and that's without accounting for a possible Abyssal or Rod of Ages. Moreover, if assassins hit like semi-trailers, mages make it feel like you're being carpet bombed; as you lose most of your health to random skillshots thrown a full lane away. I say this because you're likely going to say "but mages don't build those items, they need item 3285 , item 3135 and item 3089 ", to which I say if they're going to go full glass cannon they better act like full glass cannons.

Again, things aren't entirely balanced here, ADCs have just as much if not more damage than assassins, mages have more range, CC and utility and if your name is Ahri you have mobility as well.

Grouping people need to realize that “strength in numbers” does not apply to a game where it takes 0.2 seconds to kill someone, not to mention you cant be grouped 100% of the game and grouping only starts towards the end of the game.

It's not 0.2 seconds unless they're 20/0 and their name is Zed/Leblanc/Fizz, that and, how did they get to that point?

Grouping doesn't start towards the end of the game, it starts pretty much just after one side's bot lane wins. Atm it's a deathball meta based off of bot lane. I haven't NOT played a game these past 3 seasons where it hasn't turned into a pseudo ARAM game, with everyone mid lane waiting for either an objective to come up, a pick or an opportunity to engage a fight.

Śhunpo1 votes

They do have cooldowns, unless your name is Zed, in which case it doesn't matter.

Health stacking does work.

Peel does work, it's called knockups, knockbacks, mass shielding (item 3190 ), Exhaust etc.

Grouping does work, you just can't muck it up. If you play poorly the assassin wins, and that's that.

Madz2 votes

{quoted}

"There's no counterplays against a fed assassin", what about CC, health stacking, Zhoyna's, peel abilities, untargetability, ranged harass, objective play, grouping....I could go on if you like.

In low elo though....there's very little counterplay against a fed assassin. But tbh they're usually smurfs so it's not really fair to say they deserve to be nerfed.

You're right. But you know, solo queue players don't care.

I just want to throw you a fact that low diamond players still have no ideas how to play against a fed assassin, nor the game. They'd just walk right into something without any backups and die, etc.

I'd use an example from a game of mine:

  • There's a Rengar on the enemy team and we were sieging down mid Nexus turrets, but guess what my support did? My support Morgana did not buy 2 item 2055 but item 3114 item 3801 + 4 other items. (She should have got 5 items + 2 pinks to prevent Rengar's ult)

  • That's a top ap rengar who got fked by me as Tahm Kench. Rengar was like 2-3 levels behind but he still found a way to kill my teammates and got to a point he was 12/12. My Caitlyn got deleted multiple times in a D3-D4 game. I'm really disappointed not because we lost, we won tbh, but because of these diamond players who are supposed to be good at the game. Buy item 2055 against Rengar is pretty basic but why can't a Diamond 4 support be able to pull it out?

Talking about "what one can do in theories against one specific situation" in solo queues is kind of not wise. You can't always tell your team what to do or when to back off. You'd also often get muted as well if you've ever tried that.

Why would the majority (97.5%) be able to understand how to play around a fed assassin even when a Diamond 4 (Top 2.5%) support doesn't? (I could use many more examples from my games)

Go take a look at the S tier champ list in high elo (Pulling one from Mobalytics in 9.15) Top: Akali Riven Kled (1.5 Assassins) (I count RIven as .5) Jungle: Rengar Nidalee Elise Nunu (2.5 Assassins) (Elise hiding in a bush counted as .5) Mid: Katarina Akali Talon AurelionSol Ahri (3 out of 5) Ever had fun playing against these assassin smurfs in gold? (Don't forget about the Twitch jungle smurfs in low elo)

Śhunpo1 votes

From what I've gathered from this response it can be pretty much be summarised as "players are not good enough to understand how to play against assassins properly", to which I say, why should assassins be nerfed just because players refuse to implement counterplay strategies in their general gameplan?

Sorry, but this just is not fair reasoning enough to nerf them, besides Zed, Rengar and Talon; who are very well due for some nerfs.

Akali might need a nerf or two, and Kat just needs either a revert or for item 3146 to be removed while she gets some compensation buffs.

PurpleKingCrazy1 votes

Ahri is part assassin.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Fear the Kayn1 votes

I would argue they should nerf the assassin items and not the assassins themselves, and actually buff assassin's numbers to compensate. That way every champion can't build flat lethality and magically become an assassin (Riven Gangplank Graves etc... I'm looking at you). Sorry but I don't agree with anyone who says any squishy champion should ever be able to 1v1 an equally fed assassin. The specific role of an assassin is to pop that squishy like a mosquito. If they can't do that there's no point in them existing.

PurpleKingCrazy1 votes

i think some of it I do actually agree with even though it would be an apparent counterargument. The problem isn't with the assassins themselves shaping up to a gank heavy meta. It's rather that the gold-heavy spots are favored toward AD champs (hence taking the red buff) vs mana-heavy or AP champs (who prefer Blue buff) and so itemization can actually become easier towards those junglers and are rewarded more for building straight AD and lethality and less rewarding when you play a champion that can jungle but do bad because of the itemization for that kind of playstyle.

Diana technically is an example of an assassin that actually could jungle and has AP scaling and prefers blue buff over red buff. So it's not about the assassin but what it basically rewards in the jungle in general.

I did talk about switching the raptors and wolves so that the gold efficiency can be conquered on either side without the use of vertical jungling. Also I do like the sound of giving conditional buffs from season 5-6 as it pertains to unique gameplay in order to increase diversity as well. But yea, jungle is kinda really not my thing but I can give it a try.

Taliyah

okamiyasha951 votes

Nah the number one problem with assassins is they have too much damage. At all stages of the game. It's already easy to snowball with them. Look at Talon. As soon as he hits level 2, he can all in you and kill you. An assassin can go 0/5, barely have an item finished, and still all in you. They can have no kills a decent amount of cs and still all in your fed mid laner or ADC.

The second problem is how much free reign they have over the map and in their kit. Everything in their kit allows them to get in and get out with little to no worry. They all have refreshes on some ability which allows them to spam attacks/escapes making them all the more difficult to manage. How can you beat champs that can get over walls in the blink of an eye and you can't? You can't counter something you can't target or see and their abilities allow them to not be targetted or seen. Some assassins have a built in item 3814 and then they can just build it making it impossible to stop them from killing you. Then they have abilities that either make them faster or slow you. Jungle makes it worse by far since Jungle has THE most free reign over the map. You could build Zhonya's to counter their ult, but as an ADC, that's not that good of a buy.

Lastly, assassins rely too much on early game and early leads. The reason you won't see them in pro play is because those players know not to overextend in lane. Also, great junglers can counter jungle assassins well. Assassins are really squishy early so invading their jungle is a great way to stop them. An assassin can't really do anything when the whole enemy team is warded out and playing it safe. It's harder to have successful ganks. In solo Q, no one is communicating, players play recklessly, they don't ward, and they overextend. It makes it easier for assassins to dive or gank. Also, the solo Q junglers don't really jungle against assassins correctly.

Not taking away from the fact that jungle rewards still help, but I can spend a majority of the game ganking a lane getting kills off players and taxing lanes. The smite items and the extra XP it gives is more of an issue. It doesn't matter what buff you start. If you take it, you're level 2 and you can cheese the hell out of any lane.

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