Katarina Counter Play

Coolhandluke21·Dec 19, 2014·6 votes·3,155 views

I'd like to open up a discussion about meaningful counter play.

I've been in a few games recently with Katarina and in these games I've found that her spells have no cast time, allowing her to simply dominate otherwise even duals. On the playing side this feels ok. I want to get to a champion: "boom" now I'm there -> instantly death spin them. Meanwhile on the receiving end there is not time to respond to this action in anyway. Not even one single basic attack.

As I play I tend to feel rage in this moment. I don't feel like I'm playing a person who has skillfully beaten me in a dual but instead that I'm dealing with an unbalanced unfair mechanic.

34 Comments

CerbearusDec 20, 20145 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNuWIZZaysU

Counterplay? Why would you need counterplay against a champion who can literally just smash all his buttons and kills you instantly?

Coolhandluke21Dec 20, 20142 votes

Wow that is great. And awful.

MollDec 20, 20141 votes

Not impressed. He did nothing in the beginning of the fight and when everyone was 15% or less he (W)

TeemoJenkinsDec 19, 20144 votes

Who are you playing against her?

Coolhandluke21Dec 20, 20142 votes

I feel like the conversation isn't who she is playing against. It's how the character is viewed by the opponent. With shun po instantaneously dropping her upon you there isn't an ability to react to this. The only negative thing she suffers is that now she's in an aggressive position with a triggered cool down. No other champ has this ability with out landing some skill shot or using mana. I'm not asking much, but less than a second for our minds to accept that something has physically moved. If it weren't for the sound effect the current ability would seem like a glitch or a moment of lag.

AccountaBilabudyDec 19, 20143 votes

Chogath

Ch0c0lateJesusDec 19, 20143 votes

Shunpo needs to have an actual cast time.

Yes I know it will make it harder for Kat players to get pentas by falling alseep with their face on the keyboard, but then maybe people will stop making fun of them for playing a champ that a chimp would find too easy.

DedriusDec 19, 20142 votes

Katarina counterplay is pretty much any type of CC or escape. Just save your CC for her ult and she is basically shut down until she has it again because her damage is pretty Meh without her ult. Also if you have a dash or escape mechanic, also save that for her ult for the same reason as above. Her laning phase isn't that great compared to other Mid Champions, similar (yet a little better than) Akali , especially after the damage nerf to her ult at lower levels.

She is a team fighting machine there is no real way around that, but if a team has good focus and knows how to save at least one form of CC then she will also be fairly weak there since she relies heavily on resets to try to do damage in teamfights.

Items and abilities that counter her are pretty much anything that makes someone not die when they should. Kayle ult, Zilean Ult, GA, basically anything that stops her from getting a reset is a counter. Without resets she is a very underwhelming mid laner.

If ahead though she will blow you up before you have a very good chance to answer, but that is the nature of all mid lane burst assassins.

Poptart EvelynnDec 19, 20142 votes

As a Kat main I'd hate to tell you that the counter play is very small. There really isn't much options outside of baiting her and saving cc just for her.

The best counter to kat is building BV/GA. Bv to prevent dfg combo and GA to prevent resets. Once you have both these items she is basically useless.

EvilRabbittDec 20, 20141 votes

Its the same with Fizz really. I use Kat a lot, and the biggest counterplay to is to huddle around a CC tank and hope the Kat chickens out. That, or build 50 Magic Resist extra...then she kinda just cries.

Zen FuryDec 19, 20142 votes

A Kat has two options in a fight.

Ult right away and hope no one hits you with a stun/knockup/etc.
Wait for stuns/knockups/etc. to be used, then ult.

In both cases, Kat hopes the enemy team is a bunch of idiots. This is usually a good strategy for lower ranks where she becomes a pubstomper if you have any skill with her at all.

At higher levels, no one is going to blow their hard CC with a Kat around. They're going to wait to catch you. Since you're so squishy and don't really do a whole lot of damage without your ult, you're also hoping your team can keep the enemy team off you so you don't get caught and killed BEFORE you ult. At this level of play, Kat is more like an assassin; she's only really deadly if she sneaks up on you or if she comes in as cleanup on a fight.

Kat is just fine the way she is. And I say that as a non-Kat player.

WheatloafDec 19, 20142 votes

Her counter play is... not good. I don't know when she'll be reworked, or how heavily, but she almost definitely will be. While waiting for that, take mid laners that can either outrange her, outdamage her, or CC her near-instantaneously. She's not broken, she's just not fun to play against.

The Night GuardDec 20, 20142 votes

I know that Kat's counter in hard CC but that's not enough. When I play a champ that has one form of crowd control that takes multiple seconds to pull off I have no hope of stopping her, especially considering she can do three of her four abilities in .76 seconds, so even if I did have fast CC it'll never be faster than her instantaneous face rolls. I agree her ult is vulnerable to CC but frankly that doesn't matter if she can dispense death in less than a second without it just by clicking three buttons but I can do nothing because there's no counter play to that except maybe an hourglass which will save you for a second but more than half the champs are AD so they have no protection. Dying before I know what hit me takes the fun out of this game and without that there's little reason t keep playing it.

Coolhandluke21Dec 20, 20142 votes

I feel like the main issue if for champions like Irelia Irelia or Twisted Fate TwistedFate where they feel like they have the means to respond to a treat but without the slightest window to see an attack is happening Kat can use her full combo of damage (q,w,e) without risking the time for a responding time of less than a second. This feels like it's over powered.

Brenticus12Dec 20, 20142 votes

I've been playing a lot of Kassadin and alot of my matches were againsf Katarinas. I knew that I could interrupt her ult with my Q but before my cast time has even gone halfway, she manages to take my health down to half of what it was. At that point I can't even bother to retaliate with anything other than an E and then R to get away before she throws another Q at me.

If her Shunpo had a cast time then I could atleast get ready to press Q or atleast press Q .5 seconds before she starts her ult.

HayaishiDec 19, 20141 votes

The window of opportunity is too small to counterplay her.

She needs more nerfs.

It Is I EmotoDec 19, 20141 votes

I think kassadin is a good pick against her. He can cancel her ult, wich means that she's quite easily shut down at that point. As well,, she can't help her jungler for the gank, wich means that you can easily reposition yourself. Also, you can easily just rift out of her ult too, means that you can still beat her. Though, Kassadin pre-6 is weak, and she can easily harrass him with q+e+w. I'd recommend to rush a abyssal cepter against her, wich helps you to sustain her harrass/damage and also pentrating her free mr.

AccountaBilabudyDec 19, 20141 votes

Also Lulu and Malzahar

WaaweeDec 19, 20141 votes

Her e and w have no cast time. Her q has a cast time and stops her movement. Her r is channeled. Her specialty is cleaning up teamfights where her targets are low health which means that the teamfight needs to have already started. Knowing this you should save atleast one form of crowd control for her when she does decide to go in because a cced kat is a dead kat. Also remember, her ult does not hit all 5 people. It only hits 3, therefore if you are clustered she will not be able to kill all of you "instantly". Katarina does not win duels unless you are dueling a support. Katarina's dueling potential is pretty much e dfg ult. During her combo, you can either cc her or dash/flash away. If she can't kill you, congrats you will win the duel since her q and w do not do enough damage alone and her abilities will be on cd.

WooBeeWooDec 19, 20141 votes

e dfg ult? I think they would probably do q dfg e w r..... which would do crazy damage. much more than what you are suggesting

Poptart EvelynnDec 20, 20141 votes

{quoted}

e dfg ult? I think they would probably do q dfg e w r..... which would do crazy damage. much more than what you are suggesting

Dfg > E > Q > W in quick chase catches. Dfg > Q > E > wait .5 seconds for Q to lane(during this time move slightly in front and one AA) > W > Ult for standard use. Dfg > Q > E > W for cases where you want to kill them with the least amount of risk to yourself but you wont proc Q. Typically when you snowball standard. Flash > E > Dfg > Q > W for the fastest method when trying to instagib people due to travel time of dfg and q.

Q stalls you a second which takes you out of range of E and DFG is slightly further than Q. DFG is faster than Q but if you Q before you DFG that will take you out of range to use shunpu. Although most skilled kat players are just aware of this without thinkin and always use the combo within shunpu range and stall .5 seconds for dfg/q to land before combo'ing all the way.

NarasimhaDec 19, 20141 votes

A stiff breeze. Ok, seriously though, her weakness is that her entire strength comes from her death spin. She teleports right next to her target and has to channel to get all her damage off. If your opponent panics, then it works. If they remain calm and have some cc, then you'll be the one hurting,

FadedpfDec 19, 20141 votes

Udyr Bear stance to run up and stun her then phoenix stance to burst her down. Uydr is a monster against Kat, he justs needs a mr item

Squeaky DreemurrDec 19, 20141 votes

Look... Make Kat unable to be instantaneously interrupted by more than 3/4 of the champions in this game, and then you can add more counterplay. ATM, her instant casts on E and W are crucial for her engages, resets, and disengages. Her recent Ult cooldown and base damage nerf was quite significant.

That said, I personally hate playing against her too. A good Kat will typically punish your mistakes with instant death. D:

Coolhandluke21Dec 20, 20142 votes

I think I'd like it more if her teleport had short in air mechanic where she takes significantly reduced damage and was immune to cc, this would however allow you to see her coming. Less skilled plays may blow their cc now trying to stop her. Then when she lands still possessing the reduced damage but now able to be cc'ed . The visual shared of her actually moving between champion kill to champion kill would be more pleasing to watch and easier to comprehend in action.

And maybe this "in air time" could function like a counter. I just feel like some transparency with where she is going is desperately needed to help the champion feel whole and not like a glitch that survived from the games early stages.

The Night GuardDec 20, 20141 votes

I feel like I she wasn't doing 300 damage with just her movement ability then it would be a bit more fair, but instead a third of your health comes from that one unavoidable move. Even that in air solution would alow the player to actually understand the death coming for them and act while the Kat is still able to do her thing

Knight SoIaire Dec 20, 20141 votes

but even if youu stop her fast its not that meaningfull (riot changed the way her ult deals damage so she gets most of it at the start, this reduced the effectiveness of cc hard)

OrdersDec 20, 20141 votes

I play against her quite a bit (when I do play PvP). I found that Maokai is really good at stopping her ult.

Just play champs that have a lot of CC in their kit.

MrSlowDieDec 20, 20141 votes

people still QQ'ing about kat?

AFK PushDec 20, 20141 votes

I think that she has the same counterplay that Akali has. They can both in the blink of an eye make any trade attempt useless, and until that escape is on cooldown can you use your cc to kill them.

I would use somebody that can make all in attempts go completely wrong such as Lissandra Malzahar Syndra or Orianna .

JlesaistuDec 20, 20141 votes

Kassadin, Kassadin, Kassadin!!!!!

no seriously...kassadin get everythings in his kit to bully katarina in lane and the whole game!

passive magic resist cut down her damage by a lot....especially if you build ROA you can win trade and bully her pretty badly.

Q harass her good, help migrate damage she coudl do if she try to trade with you...and eventually can be used to interup her ult lategame.

W actually hurt pretty bad....tha make katarina unable to shumpo you to harass early...is she ever try, W her and as ti si a attack reset you can win those kind of trade very hard. She just cannot manfight you. whener she try to harass, Q-W and hit her with AA and she will be force back.

E get good damage and decent slow as well...and as karatina have a spam nature, you basically get those chage very fast on lane...

R allow you to both walk away from ult ot to go in with Q to cancel her and fuck her up...cooldown is very low, much lower than shumpo...you can hase and kill her pretty easy.

really..get kassadin, a couple potion and a flask...and spam her Q and WE everytime she DARE to get near you or try to cs...totla shut down.

Linna ExcelDec 20, 20141 votes

Silence or a stun is her counterplay. You used to be able to grab a support soraka and not have to worry because your silence had a low CD if you maxed CDR. Can't do that anymore. And Katarina can walk out of your silence before the snare goes off.

So now I guess make sure your support is either taric or leona and hope they can CC her in a teamfight.

Dar RaksadaDec 21, 20141 votes

While I hate Katarina with a passion as she manages to combine two of the things that annoy me most in this game (excessive mobility, especially blinks, and stuff that resets on champion kill. her mobility is excessive because it resets on kill and instantly hops over any skillshots unlike, say, Lucian's dash) I have to admit she has counterplay and is not overpowered, she's just incredibly annoying. counterplay against het is early ranged harass like Lux's e as well as strong pushers for laning. Though you can't kill a good Katarina in lane cause of wardhops. Later on it boils down to a few things

A) Keep wards up so that you know where she is to prevent being ambushed mid-fight

B) Save some cc for when she goes in, make sure to burst her once she is cc'ed

C) Proper (personal) disengaging when you're low on health so as to prevent het getting her resets from you