Please give Evelynn's Ultimate a "Minimum Damage".

39665227_DEL·Mar 29, 2015·121 votes·18,221 views

Heya, I would like to suggest that, as it is with quite a couple of %healthdmg abilities, that a "minimum dmg" functionality would be added to Evelynss Ultimate Ability. Right now it does 15/20/25% (+1%/100AP) magical dmg of CURRENT HEALTH with no minimum damage. Which means that if an enemy is at 100 Health, it cant even be used to execute champions. I know it is supposed to be used as the first Ability to maximize damage, but it still feels odd to me that I cannot kill an enemy with 50 HP that is running away and I cant catch up to, to use Q or E, to finish them off with my ult (unless I have a Luden's Echo).

Let me know what you think.

125 Comments

RiotMeddlerMar 29, 201544 votes

I'll check with a couple of people who've done work on Eve and get back to you about this one.

While I'm at it, since we're talking about Eve anyway, I'll get their thoughts on how the 5.6 changes have gone as well.

ShinjusukeMar 30, 201524 votes

I liked the passive change, but sans red buff shes lost all sticking power without the move speed buff she had. Her W cd is just way to long to make the change to a CD drop rather than a move speed boost at all worthwhile as she either isnt going to survive long enough to Q enough for Ws reset, or she'll kill her target and thus the CD drop doesnt matter.

Also, if you're going to insist she initiate on a large group instead of pick of people (y'know, like assassins do), cant her ultimate give a shield that's actually worthwhile? You've shoved a fighter/tank champions ultimate into an assassin kit and wondered why it's not working for her :/

Riot keeps trying to shove an obvious assassin in a fighter-like direction and then saying "huh, why does suck?". First things first, you have to focus on making her a healthier assassin, and stop making her into a fighter (historically the most problematic champion class-design I might add).

I also want to add that Riot has on a few occasions pointed to her assassin gameplay and said it's the reason she's not allowed to be high-burst, while simultaneously creating and supporting characters with just as little assassin interaction and calling them "just fine". If you need a list of them I can gladly provide it, but I doubt you do. It's not meant to be a combative statement, simply just something to think about seeing as Riot is apparently hesitant to ever let Eve have a good, functional assassin kit for the exact reasons that are apparently fine on more popular champions.

OyddAWqJ5rMar 30, 20152 votes

Cuz they also shoved a Fighter/Tanks champion's build into her and building otherwise is nowhere near as effective.

ShinjusukeMar 30, 20152 votes

I beg to differ on the "nowhere near as effective" bit. I've had a great deal of success with the inclusion of Luden's echo playing her as an AP Assassin utilizing a ton of movement speed to get into a fight, pick off a target, and get back out. She has the raw damage for it, she's just essentially "ult-less".

DantilqMar 30, 20153 votes

I think the issue with making her an assassin, is that her ganks are just too strong, there is too limited ways of dealing with them right now. IF she provides appropriate burst for an assassin when she have managed to sneak up on someone, then she is too strong, because there is too limited ways of dealing with her stealth.

Until there are proper ways of dealing with her stealth, she can't be strong duelist, assassin or much of anything. I think Riot should add some sort of hints that she is somewhat close, even if she is not visible. Like make a much larger "aura". Dimming the light, giving you creepy feelings, hearing her laugh etc. Make it feel like you are watched, and like you are the victim in a horror movie. This way she can't sneak up behind you, with 0 warning, but you still don't know EXACTLY where she is. It would also make her the most creepy champ in the game to play against, enhancing feeling of her. Edit: OR as mentioned, reuse Rengar stealth exclamationmark-warning.

NilokMar 30, 20151 votes

Believe it or not, that already happens, when an invisible champion is near by, you will have an exclamation point over your head. Is it as flavorful as what you said? No, but the mechanic is already implemented.

Edit: Not sure why the down vote, your recommendation mechanically is already in the game. At this point it is simply about numbers and effects.

DestínumMar 30, 201510 votes

That's only for Rengar's ultimate. You're stating it like it's the case with every stealth champion, which is wrong, and thus you're getting downvoted.

DantilqMar 30, 20151 votes

It would be a working solution for Eve as well though, as people already know what it means. Not AS flavourful as I suggested but still something that would make Eve's invis easier to balance.

DestínumMar 30, 20153 votes

I don't think it's the right solution tbh, since Eve already have a warning mechanic on her passive (with less range, but gives more information).

Yasu0 is dogMar 30, 20152 votes

The Assassin tag actually means "Has 3.5 flashes and passives on each ability"

rinsujoMar 30, 20151 votes

...then why does Eve have it?

Yasu0 is dogMar 30, 20153 votes

AazzlanoMar 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I'll check with a couple of people who've done work on Eve and get back to you about this one.

While I'm at it, since we're talking about Eve anyway, I'll get their thoughts on how the 5.6 changes have gone as well.

Yes! Hopefully the W change will get reverted or something, because I really hate it >.< Hope to hear a response soon :D

DeusVultMar 30, 20159 votes

The passive change is great

but the W changes are counter-intuitive

she needed the passive MS to be able to stick to people and spam Qs. And if she's gonna have a passive CD reduction based on hitting enemies with spells, then she really needs the passive MS stacks.

but instead you gave her the CD reduction and took away the MS stacks. So, instead of being able to use the CD reduction, she lost the MS stacks that gave her the sticking power she needs, and so the CD reduction is there and looks great on paper, but never actually gets used.

KilljoyXMar 30, 20156 votes

{quoted}

I'll check with a couple of people who've done work on Eve and get back to you about this one.

While I'm at it, since we're talking about Eve anyway, I'll get their thoughts on how the 5.6 changes have gone as well.

This is one of the largest nerfs since she coined the term "Eve'd" the part that shocks me the most is the patch notes indicate your balance team believed this gutting to be a buff.

I used to say that you could change everything about her but her W speed and her passive and I'd still play her but I's sooner remove rammus Q than 80MS off her speed.

CommandShockwaveMar 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I'll check with a couple of people who've done work on Eve and get back to you about this one.

While I'm at it, since we're talking about Eve anyway, I'll get their thoughts on how the 5.6 changes have gone as well.

I played a couple games with her post-changes and I gotta say the stealth change felt barely noticeable late-game. In her current state (zero burst damage) she functions best as an initiator by flanking then ulting a large group from behind (followed with hard engage like leona/malph). In that situation I have to be a tanky burn-bruiser with a bork/randuins/etc so I can soak damage while being a general pest that requires peel. The LAST thing I want right now is run in and out of fights disappearing...

ShinjusukeMar 30, 20158 votes

I made a comment somewhere else, but the biggest issue is that Riot has forced some fighter traits (her consistent-dps Q and her honestly kinda super lame ultimate) onto an assassin.

So you have the people playing her like a fighter, and people playing her like an assassin. The stealth change is heavily noticeable by the assassin players, while the fighters think she's "gutted" without the move speed.

Now, I'm all-for people doing whatever playstyle they feel is effective, but her lore, character, passive, and W all heavily beyond a doubt make her an assassin. Unfortunately, Riot doesn't like her whenever she's an assassin, and so the easiest "effective" way to play her is a fighter playstyle.

The problem caused by this is that Riot keeps shoving Fighter traits onto her, but still is acting like they want her to be an Assassin. The passive change was the first thing in a long time supporting an Assassin playstyle that they've made since her last rework. The end result is "fighter Eve" players pretending she's "supposed" to be a fighter and not liking changes in the assassin direction, while "assassin Eve" players not liking the last like 4 changes they did before this that nudged her in a fighter direction.

Frankly, half of Eve's current kit should've gone to a fighter champion ages ago. She's not a fighter, and nothing about the character would imply she is other than some bad kit changes Riot has made to her. Riot needs to stop trying to make a champion with her background into a fighter, and try to make a her a healthier assassin, and then put the fighter traits of Eve (her sustained Q damage and her ultimate) onto a new fighter's kit, and all the problems will be solved.

TheUltimateSpearMar 30, 20153 votes

Yes!

The passive change is really nice. Just another reminder that changes don't have to be big to be relevant.

I don't know, but for me and others it seems that the W passive change was a nerf rather than a buff, as the passive movement speed really helped Eve to stick despite having minimal CC. Which she should be able to considering she's a gank-heavy rather than a farm-heavy jungler. The base W cooldown is really too long to make the hit and run playstyle work at the moment.

And yes, please give Eve's ult minimum damage. It doesn't have to be ginormous, but it feels so bad that you can't use it to finish someone off. Her ultimate is her only ranged spell, and the only one that can potentially exceed detection range. It would really help her out without going too crazy.

Evelynn

Thunder DreamssMar 30, 20152 votes

Hi, I consider myself an Evelynn main. She's been one of my most played champions virtually since I joined League.

The change to her passive feels nice but it doesn't add much power. Late game it is very rare for a fight to last long enough that you can afford to drop out for 3 seconds to restealth and then get back in to reinitiate.

Her W change is problematic. In principle trading the passive MS boost for cooldown on W gives a similar strength. There are two problems with this. First, that passive MS is what let Eve be sticky enough to actually deal damage as a melee champion.

Second, there are very few cases where the new on-spell cooldown will actually come into play. Lets look at the possible outcomes of Eve running into someone: She kills them - W is reset without need for the new on-spell. They run - she has no extra MS and is therefore unlikely to get the spell hits needed to reset W. She runs - she has no extra MS but if the enemy can keep up with her she will get spell hits to reset W. In terms of speed this is kinda a wash but W resets her stealth timer so she can't turn invisible to get away as easily. She gets killed - no difference in this scenario. Basically if she is killed or kills her target theres no difference between her play before and now. If she's chasing someone she's less likely to be able to catch them. If she's running she's less likely to get away. That's overall a nerf where her interaction with single targets is concerned.

The one case I've found the change to W to sometimes help is in teamfights when the fight goes on long enough to get a full reset from the cooldowns and I need to reposition without finishing my first target off. Often tho the old MS would have been just as good here but there are a few cases (fucking Ashe slows) where the W active being up more often is better.

In theory Eve with 40% cdr can have W up more than half the time now but with all the nerfs Eve has suffered over time it's really hard to afford that 40% in your build when you need items like BoRK to deal any damage and Randuins to survive fights.

RiotMeddlerMar 30, 201514 votes

So, looks like the team's a little split on the ult's damage paradigm, with whether or not Eve should be able to get a kill outside of her Q range the focus of the discussion. Will get back to you folks if we come to a consensus that'll result in any changes to the ult.

As far as the 5.6 changes go those have been less powerful than expected. Current thinking is that we'll put the stacking movement speed back on.

Skia AsteriMar 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

As far as the 5.6 changes go those have been less powerful than expected. Current thinking is that we'll put the stacking movement speed back on.

Excellent. I see the revert is on PBE now.

So, looks like the team's a little split on the ult's damage paradigm, with whether or not Eve should be able to get a kill outside of her Q range the focus of the discussion. Will get back to you folks if we come to a consensus that'll result in any changes to the ult.

item 3285 With this the argument becomes moot since she can.

But making it better for safely going in for assassinations rather than being a damage tool would be more useful.

Support EvelynnMar 30, 20153 votes

{quoted}

As far as the 5.6 changes go those have been less powerful than expected. Current thinking is that we'll put the stacking movement speed back on.

THANK THE FUCKING LORD.

AbyssphereMar 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

So, looks like the team's a little split on the ult's damage paradigm, with whether or not Eve should be able to get a kill outside of her Q range the focus of the discussion. Will get back to you folks if we come to a consensus that'll result in any changes to the ult.

As far as the 5.6 changes go those have been less powerful than expected. Current thinking is that we'll put the stacking movement speed back on.

I understand not wanting her to be able to say, take someone from 30% HP to 0 with her ult because she's barely became visible by the time she uses it, but why do the team want it to be literally impossible for her to kill someone from outside her Q range? That seems weirdly restrictive.

I don't know about anyone else but I don't want a bit base damage on it. 50 / 75 / 100 would satisfy me, just so it's not actually the only damaging ability in the game that cannot kill a target.

Nameless VoiceMar 30, 20154 votes

Any chance of changing her E back to dealing magic damage, now that DFG is out of the picture?

VermonsterMar 31, 20152 votes

I have been commenting asking for her E to be changed back to magic damage and her ult to be changed back to % maximum health since DFG's removal was announced. But Riot has yet to respond to a single comment from me or others on the subject.

Jesus is SaviorMar 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

As far as the 5.6 changes go those have been less powerful than expected. Current thinking is that we'll put the stacking movement speed back on.

Riot is actually reverting a change that didn't work out as intended? Please revert it ASAP (hotfix before next patch if possible), and never mess with her W again, ty.

I might actually be able to play ranked again this season!

And I might actually be able to get gold again next season!

EDIT: I see on the PBE that you are leaving the spellhit cooldown reduction on it too. If you EVER tweak (nerf) it again because "the new W is too powerful", remove or nerf the "spellhit cooldown reduction", and leave the flat movespeed alone. Never touch the flat movespeed again. Flat movespeed is hard to come by (only boots and triforce grant it, really), and you guys already messed up once, so lets not mess up my main champ again, k?

And seriously, thank you. I'm literally not good enough to get to gold with anyone else. I am happy you are fixing her.

EDIT 2: this goes without saying, but, please never remove the kill/assist reset either. lmao

EDIT 3: Just thought I should mention as a final note, you have restored my faith in the balance team, which was lost months ago, even before these Eve changes. Thank you again.

KingsgraveMar 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

So, looks like the team's a little split on the ult's damage paradigm, with whether or not Eve should be able to get a kill outside of her Q range the focus of the discussion. Will get back to you folks if we come to a consensus that'll result in any changes to the ult.

As far as the 5.6 changes go those have been less powerful than expected. Current thinking is that we'll put the stacking movement speed back on.

Change E back to Magic Damage Make her Q faster or instant Increase her base stats

Tentacle LoveApr 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So, looks like the team's a little split on the ult's damage paradigm, with whether or not Eve should be able to get a kill outside of her Q range the focus of the discussion. Will get back to you folks if we come to a consensus that'll result in any changes to the ult.

As far as the 5.6 changes go those have been less powerful than expected. Current thinking is that we'll put the stacking movement speed back on.

http://www.newsoflegends.com/index.php/category/2-pbe-news/

And it looks like after only a day, the revert is gone. What's the deal? It only takes a day of barely any testing to justify nerfing her but you have to be extremely slow with de-nerfing her? After the majority of the team apparently reached a consensus that she needed it?

Tentacle LoveMar 29, 20155 votes

Why use the 50/100 HP metric? It can't kill someone if they only have 2 hp.

I don't even know if it rounds up. I doubt anyone could get up to 2500 ability power though to find out.

Rock RockburghMar 30, 20152 votes

It is not possible. I might be missing something, but what I've worked out is a maximum AP for Eve of 1307.76285. Formula: 480 (Deathcaps) + 180 (Mejai's) + 60 (Seraph) + 60.93 (Seraph passive) + 40 (Elixir of Sorcery) + 16 (Mental Force) + 6 (Arcane Mastery) + 1.818 (Marks+Seals) + 3.069 (Glyphs) + 7.74*3 (Quints) + 40 (Hand of Baron) * 1.3 (Deathcap passive) * 1.05 (Archmage)

All runes are Scaling Ability Power and values are taken at level 18.

Feel free to check my math, but note that this will kill a target with up to 26 hit points, assuming that the ult itself has a minimum damage of 1. (25 true damage from Sorcery buff.)

Tannhäuser GateMar 30, 20151 votes

the ~120 ap from the seraph's will be less than a 5th mejais best to have 5 mejais and a dcap

WheatloafMar 30, 20155 votes

Except mejai's passive is unique :|

Captain AishiMar 29, 20154 votes

riot stated that they didn't want eve to use her ult to execute people when they changed it from max hp to current hp back in season 3

so they'd have to have changed their view on that if they are to do a change like the one you're suggesting

39665227_DELMar 29, 201513 votes

I can see that this would be a problem in the sense of max hp to current hp, since then the dmg value could be very high. But this in my mind is another thing with just leaving it at %currenthealth but giving it a for example 100/150/200 minimum dmg.

Captain AishiMar 29, 20152 votes

yeah, i think with numbers similar to xin's ult it could be reasonable, unlike in S3 when it did 15 to 25% max hp

AbyssphereMar 29, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captain Aishi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EllJfAGO,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-29T15:05:46.123+0000)

riot stated that they didn't want eve to use her ult to execute people when they changed it from max hp to current hp back in season 3

so they'd have to have changed their view on that if they are to do a change like the one you're suggesting

You don't understand what they were thinking. They didn't want Eve to just run in and find anyone with less than 30% health and murder them instantly with just R. That does not mean they thought "It being at all possible for Evelynn's R to kill someone is inherently toxic".

LeeDarkMar 29, 201512 votes

Giving it a minimum damage doesn't make it an execute. You'd have to be bad to use it that way. But NO DAMAGING ULT IN THE GAME should be INCAPABLE of killing someone who has only 100 health left.

GhostOfShrimpmasMar 29, 20154 votes

Are there any other abilities in the game that deal damage but can't kill someone?

SpecterVonBarenMar 29, 20151 votes

Elise's human Q.

AbyssphereMar 29, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Elise's human Q.

Elise's human Q has a base damage.

I'm pretty sure Eve has the only damaging ability in the game without a base damage.

SaiannaMar 29, 20152 votes

Riot dislikes idea of Evelynn, the hurtful assassin.

They prefer keeping her mild-tank

rikelolMar 29, 20151 votes

Actuallty, they removed great part of her chasing potencial from W in patch 5.6, so she does not sustain speed to be a successful tank anymore. ;/

SaiannaMar 29, 20156 votes

Looks like they want to make her into minion.....

Colours match already Damage too

EvilRabbittMar 29, 20151 votes

Play Evelynn into Garen (top lane). Buy Rylai's via rush. Profit from Garen being unable to touch you. Rush Liandry's then Ludens. Watch Garen cry.

LeeDarkMar 29, 201510 votes

Yeah, because a MELEE champion's RIGHT strategy against ONE champion is to kite and never actually be in melee range. AND that strategy requires an expensive item and playing the champion in a non-standard lane against someone who isn't popular. BRILLIANT.

I can't believe that you think that makes her okay.

doiminat0r3600Mar 29, 20152 votes

Theyre planning on a rework for eve and its supposed to be almost as big as the sion rework. Im just hoping that they keep the gurilla warfare as a good part of evelynns kit.

Tentacle LoveMar 29, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Theyre planning on a rework for eve and its supposed to be almost as big as the sion rework. Im just hoping that they keep the gurilla warfare as a good part of evelynns kit.

They said they were planning on a rework 4 years ago. It's never going to happen.

AnidanMar 29, 20156 votes

the current iteration WAS her rework planned 4 years ago.

They're reworking her again. Basically: She appears to be a trainwreck if they keep her Riki-esque stealth.

And to the person you replied to (Doiminator3600): There's only one person who actually has guerilla warfare as part of their actual kit and design intention, and that's Teemo. Evelynn doesn't need to keep the guerilla warfare part of her kit, because it's not there in the first place.

doiminat0r3600Mar 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

the current iteration WAS her rework planned 4 years ago.

They're reworking her again. Basically: She appears to be a trainwreck if they keep her Riki-esque stealth.

And to the person you replied to (Doiminator3600): There's only one person who actually has guerilla warfare as part of their actual kit and design intention, and that's Teemo. Evelynn doesn't need to keep the guerilla warfare part of her kit, because it's not there in the first place.

It was there actually. She was ment to be up in your face before you even knew she was there And have the monibility to run away quickly. That and her ganking. What they did was nerf her. Not necessarily rework her like they did sion. And they said they were going to rework her a few months ago when they released a list of champions that are on the rework schedule for this season.

InvisaBishhMar 30, 20155 votes

{quoted}

It was there actually. She was ment to be up in your face before you even knew she was there And have the monibility to run away quickly. That and her ganking. What they did was nerf her. Not necessarily rework her like they did sion. And they said they were going to rework her a few months ago when they released a list of champions that are on the rework schedule for this season.

The schedule was said she was due for a Visual Overhaul, not a gameplay rework.