Oh, again ?

TheVoidBringer··40 votes·1,911 views

Swain main here, and as you may have guessed, i'm here to talk about his incoming nerf.

Swain's current strenght comes from two main things :

  • He makes a very good use of deathfire touch
  • No one realised yet that exucutioner's calling exists The remaining strenghts existed before the preseason, and were canceled out by his clear weaknesses (e.g. low range, low waveclear, no instant burst, no mobility), and deemed balanced since no one touched him for years.

First of all, it would be wise to wait until people build executioner's calling to counter him BEFORE nerfing, but that's not even my point. My point, is that deathfire's touch lenght is going to be increased for the same damage (making multi-procs from dots less abusive). So, since the abuse is dealt with, why do we need to nerf dot champs.

Also when I saw this mastery, I thought it was just a buff to midlaners that only have sustained damages and dots. A buff, that would actualy have been quite welcome, since they lack the tools to deal with the adcs that received quite a nice buff this patch. So really, even though swain's winrate is high (still with a very low popularity, of course), I would say champs with both dots and burst are the real problem.

A last thing : nerfing a champ just because he's unfun to play against is not a solution. If it is the reason of this nerf, just give him the rework you've been mentioning for years. I thought that's what reworks were for, making boring champs interesting.

Oh, and for those who (rightfully) wonder what the title mean... The last time a similar thing happened was when tank jungles were too oppressive because of cindehulk and received nerfs on top on cinderhulk's destruction. But it's not like it made them totally unviable after all, they just utterly disappeared.

P.S. Sorry for posting it in the gameplay section, I can't find the place where we give our feedback on balance anymore.

34 Comments

Abahlam6 votes

I am a main Swain, so i may be not impartial.

First Swain isn't strong at all against long range push/poke/farm ap champ (azir, lux, Viktor ...who were overly present last season) but yeah these guys just got kinda nerfed so Swain is coming back recently on the rift, thanks to ROA buff too. You are cutting one of his strength and you listed his others (sustained damage, drain mage-"tank", with CC), but this guy has serious drawback too :

  • He has no spell/tool to help him last it like a lot of champs now have (DOT aren't the best for that). Moreover he has one of the lowest ad and one of the weirdest AA animation.
  • He has no pushing power at all, unless u empty your mana pool on one single creep wave (at least early). Thus his ability to roam is bad. It also mean a weaker wave clear later to defend against siege.
  • He has no mobility. DOTs can be good but it's countered by heal/shield/regen etc.. contrary to burst (but his DOTs damages aren't stronger to compensate)
  • This guy need to buy too much stats. If you want to use Swain full potential (his sustain and damages from R at a low range) you need : summoner 32 Tankiness (your kit don't give you any) so HP to avoid being burst (otherwise sustain is useless) and Armor/MR to enhance sustain efficiency. This make Swain BAD if behind cause he won't be able to use his play style. summoner 32 Mana pool and/or regen (passive not enough once you have ult) summoner 32 Damages, cuz yeah your an ap carry So HP/Armor/Mr/Mana/AP/Mpen while for instance, current Graves just need damages while fighting at same range as Swain. His E giving him up to 120 Arm/Mr for an adc, and bloodlust mastery giving him sustain.

I don't wanna say that this nerf is not justified or that Swain is overly weak now but he has several drawbacks for a midlaner. He has a lot of strengths and lot of people don't know how to deal with him or underestimate the stacked DOTs damages (RIP E+ignite nerf though) but this is compensated by all these things I listed above. I DO HOPE this nerf won't come without any compensation because his W snare is his only way to engage with his lack of mobility (especially against long range ap who already can outpush him without much counter play), and enemies are still able to hit him while he engages that way. Moreover Deathfire touch might be nerfed too.

Hope these arguments will be taken into account. For Beatrice sake, CAW !

Akenero1 votes

{quoted}

I am a main Swain, so i may be not impartial.

First Swain isn't strong at all against long range push/poke/farm ap champ (azir, lux, Viktor ...who were overly present last season) but yeah this guys just got kinda nerfed so Swain is coming back recently on the rift, thanks to ROA buff too. You are cutting one of his strength and you listed his others (sustained damage, drain mage-"tank", with CC), but this guy has serious drawback too :

  • He has no spell/tool to help him last it like a lot of champs now have (DOT aren't the best for that).
  • He has no pushing power at all, unless u empty your mana pool on one single creep wave (at least early). Thus his ability to roam he's bad. It also mean a weaker wave clear later to defend against siege.
  • He has no mobility. DOTs can be good but it's countered by heal/shield/regen etc.. contrary to burst (but his DOTs damages aren't stronger to compensate)
  • This guy need to buy too much stats. If you want to use Swain full potential (his sustain and damages from R at a low range) you need : summoner 32 Tankiness (your kit don't give you any) so HP to avoid being burst (otherwise sustain is useless) and Armor/MR to enhance sustain efficiency. This make Swain BAD if behind cause he won't be able to use his play style. summoner 32 Mana pool and/or regen (passive not enough once you have ult) summoner 32 Damages, cuz yeah your an ap carry So HP/Armor/Mr/Mana/AP/Mpen while for instance, current Graves just need damages while fighting at same range as Swain. His E giving him up to 120 Arm/Mr for an adc, and bloodlust mastery giving him sustain.

I don't wanna say that this nerf his not justified or that Swain is overly weak now but he has several drawbacks for a midlaner. He has a lot of strengths and lot of people don't know how to deal with him or underestimate the stacked DOTs damages (RIP E+ignite nerf though) but this is compensated by all these things I listed above. I DO HOPE this nerf won't come without any compensation because his W snare is his only way to engage with his lack of mobility (especially against long range ap who already can outpush him without much counter play), and enemies are still able to hit him while he engages that way. Moreover Deathfire touch might be nerfed too.

Hope these arguments will be taken into account. For Beatrice sake, CAW !

As a tryndamere player, swain was annoying as hell when i first fought one, but i learned mobility counters him heavily, as well as executioners calling( last time i fought swain top with trynd was when original EC was around)

GundayMonday6 votes

Sorry man. I know the feels when your main gets Sejuani 'd. :'(

Silents4291 votes

It's 1 second early game..

ayNigerianPrince1 votes

Early game? On an ability that is usually maxed last? Not to mention 1 second is a hell of a lot for a champion that wasn't extremely overbearing in the first place.

Silents4291 votes

Curious, in that 1 second knocked off, what is going to happen that couldn't happen before?

It closes some distance, it allows him escape still, it has it's bursty like damage, it holds them just long enough to throw the rest of his abilities onto his target.

What's 1 second off actually doing?

ayNigerianPrince2 votes

It has a defensive strength as well. Can save you from enemy ganks, your jungler might come in to gank, you might need that 1 second to get one more tick of damage off with ult turned on before they flash, etc.

Silents4291 votes

1 Second can still save you from enemy ganks and help with ally ganks.

The scenarios where 1 second makes any difference are very few, 1 second is enough time to run to safety or past the minion wave with your ult, or to hold a target in place for the junglers followup CC

ayNigerianPrince2 votes

The point is Riot took power from a champ that wasn't overbearing, while we've got other champs that are way too oppressive roaming freely.

Silents4291 votes

He is overbearing, he just isn't popular.

ayNigerianPrince1 votes

The game is balanced around plat level play, not bronze.

Silents4291 votes

The game is balanced around all levels while ignoring low elo stupidity.

ayNigerianPrince1 votes

The fuck? No. It is not balanced around all levels. Riot has stated that they balance around plat and above.

Silents4291 votes

My bad http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/data-and-champion-balance-part-1

Remember a comment from a Q&A that went further in depth, but they don't strictly look at high elo.

Penns5 votes

Swain was freelo before preseason already tho lol.

XxmagezeroxX3 votes

his nerfs were long overdue. the way to beat was to stay and get a gank, because if unlucky enough to get rooted, your life was over

TheVoidBringer16 votes

Oh not quite true, though he indeed does fear ganks.

I can hardly give a complete list of the ways to beat him, but let me try.

  • Control push (very easy given his waveclear) to either shove the lane just before your tower to get ganks, or push him under his to get a comfortable farm advantage.
  • Bully him pre 6
  • Use long ranged abilities to poke him down
  • Use mobility to dodge his w (or even without mobility, it's quite easy to dodge actualy) or all in him while his ult is down
  • Push then roam (Swain can't do anything against fed adcs, the dots are countered by lifesteal)
  • Well, lifesteal while i am at it, though not many midlaners can take it
  • Cleansing items (Mikael, mercurial) cancel not only his snare, but also his slow, suppressing quite a nice part of his burst
  • In tfs, have your support be ready to unload shields and heals on his target, it is very easy to save someone from him as his burst leaves enough time to do so (you should see what a soraka can do against swain, that's actually pretty funny)

Can't think of others, I may add some if I remember.

3TWarrior1 votes

actually, ADcarries are swain's favorite snack because they tend to not favor resistances unless they build a guardian angel

one spell rotation early game is enough to bring an adc to 30% and late game it will be a full kill

champions that swain does not do well against are tanks who can withstand his damage over time and with their damage, undo his pseudo sustain

TheVoidBringer3 votes

The delayed burst usually allows them to save themselves through lifesteal when they take some (especially with the BT shield). While swain can be said to be effective against them as he still wins fight against them most of the times, he is less efficient against them than other midlaners. Since they are balanced to deal damages relative to how easy other mages and assassins can kill them, I do consider them as one of swain's harshest weakness.

Also, those who benefit the most from low resistances are the ones who have no sustain damages. Which is not really swain's case.

lofi n chillhop5 votes

"luck" is rng. everything else is skill

Sirsir3 votes

Someone doesn't know how to deal with Swain, how sweet.

BadmoonBC3 votes

I can't believe they are nerfing swain. Seriously, he's not a popular champ, he's far from OP, and just because bronze noobs can't figure him out and get countered by him they nerf him? It's total crap. I mained swain for my first few months of this game, and I stopped playing him because he was too weak against certain champs. It's just apparently low low elos don't have any idea about this. Hint: there's a reason swain is never played in lcs or for that matter high elos in general. If anything he needs a buff. GG rito.

Crowe Stalker2 votes

If Riot needs to nerf anything about Swain (and they don't, we all know Deathfire Touch is the problem here) it's Torment they need to look at. Ahri had her charm reworked to not amplify damage and got buffed to 'Compensate' yet Swain's not even touched despite having a damage amplifier on a basic effect, even being a point-and-click spell!

I've given up on trying to hope they'll ever rework him at this rate. It's been six years and he's outclassed in every category, but let's pretend he's not a problem and not formally announce a rework date or even at least put him on the Schedule so we have general idea...

Earl Eulrich2 votes

you know, i really love playing Swain myself - and i can understand why one would nerf him. He is really strong. On the direction however i heavily disagree...his w is fairly well communicated and most of the fun when playing Swain is to maneveur your opponent in a way that he chooses willingly to step into the w-trap. It´s what really makes him fun and also what connects his playstyle and his Character - so getting rid of the reward for outwitting your opponent really shouldnßt be the way to go i feel.

I´d rather see some dmg taken away from his e, as it´s his dominant harass-tool with very low counterplay. And if the hit proves to big one can easily just buff the dmg-bonus of e a tad, so Swain has to take action to make it worth instead of just getting his opponent low by spamming e.

7ha7guy7771 votes

I don't think i understand the DFT changes. They seem like a buff to DoTs to me. 2 more base damage done over 2/3 of the amount of time. 8 base damage vs 6, over 1 second vs 1.5

TheVoidBringer2 votes

Having the damages divided on a longer span makes each tick worth less damages. Since dots increase the amounts of ticks more than other spells, that change nerfs the use dots make of DFT while buffing it for regular mages.

A very fair change, I actually thought they would do that at some point, I just wish they wouldn't nerf the champs that abused it, now that it is balanced.

7ha7guy7771 votes

The damage is currently over 1.5 seconds. The PBE changes are having DoTs do damage over 1 second. If they do the same damage over 2/3 the amount of time then wouldn't each 4 second DoT do more?

6 + (10%/1.5 for 5.5) vs 8 + (10%/1 for 5) which is 11 + 36% ap vs 20 + 50% ap I'm not positive i did the math for the flat values correctly, but the ap scaling should be accurate.

Edit: nvm it's 2 flat + 5% ap per second (10+ 25% for a 4 second DoT) so it is a nerf

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

Nobody buys EC because the item isn't worth it for getting the GW. It's such a terrible item that it's not worth the buy

RisenDarkKnight3 votes

450 gold for reducing swain's ult by 40%? That doesn't seem that bad (it's 800 gold , 350 of which is a long sword so 800- 350 = 450 for greivous wounds)

SaltyKracka1 votes

Top lane swain is cancer, tho.

TheVoidBringer1 votes

So true.

Well, toplaners do tend to take executioner's calling when against swain in lane, so his stats are bad here (they even were before the preseason), but swain top is kind of bitchy.

Diggy Hole Dwarf1 votes

love it =)

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

This is the right place. I also main Swain, and while I'm hardly excited about this nerf, it is probably fine. He's real strong right now, and they'll revert if the changes to DFT bring him real low.

TheVoidBringer1 votes

I wish i did believe it.

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