Why is there such item discrepancy between AD/Armor and AP/MR Items?

Sarthero·Dec 14, 2019·3 votes·1,818 views

Never understood why the game has been around for so long, yet there are so many very useful items with very important stats that are only accessible on one side of the offense/defense spectrum, AD/Armor or AP/MR?

The biggest offender is tenacity. Why is going into MR boots the only way to get extra tenacity in game? Why is there no armor based tenacity boosting item? What if the enemy team is near all AD and I want tenacity?

Why does Quicksilver Sash have MR? Why not just be that item active and that's it, while building into more than one item for different situations?

Why is Zhonyas, an item that just needs removed honestly, only for AP users? Guardian Angel is not the same and not near as good. Zhonyas should just be an AP equivalent of GA.

I would just like to see a little more balanced accessibility to such important stats/passives.

13 Comments

KazekibaDec 14, 20192 votes

QSS is supposed to aid in combating mages, as they're the ones most reliant on long cd CC. Malz, Annie, Veigar, Zoe etc. Zhonyas is less beneficial here because stasis just let's their skills come back up.

An Armor cleanse/Tenacity item would be helpful against Renekton or Pantheon but you already get Tabivand Frozen Heart/Bramble. Would be nice against Warwicks though, but he still does magic damage so QSS saves quite a bit. You also can get Tenacity from runes if you see a CC heavy team that you'll need armor for

SartheroDec 14, 20191 votes

Tenacity from runes stacks with the boots, as it would stack with an armor tenacity item. So you still can't get as much against an all AD team as opposed to an all AP team. Frozen heart and bramble aren't comparable... that's like saying you don't need zhonyas or qss for mages cause you can just build MR and buy adaptive helm. That still doesn't help when you get stunned by one and then focused by entire team.

I mean, most every item in the game has its use... I'm just saying it seems like there are some stats/passives that you can really only itemize for if they have alot of one damage type or the other. Tenacity is very helpful against a very wide selection of champs, however it is stuck on an item meant only to be used against AP and there are no other options.

HideSideDec 15, 20191 votes

Zhonyas is less beneficial here because stasis just let's their skills come back up.

Ask yourself, why is this item seen as the most powerful unhealthy item?

Yes, because of its interaction with certain champions like kennen and swain few another...

Second, its numbers are quite too high and potentially dodge more DMG than with GA which gives you back only 50% (even if you got infinitely big dmg you still get revived with 50% and that means that you still got at least dmg 50% of your max HP) but zhonya on other hand give you stasis during which you can get of your enemy and then get out of situation unscathed ( thats right, even if dmg does infinitely big dmg you can dodge ALL OF IT, not only 50% of your hp) + it has lesser CD.

Summary:

potential to dodge way more dmg
you can get rid of your opponent during invulnerability
gives better stats than GA:

GA - 45 AD, 40 armor, costs 2800, 300sec CD

Zh - 75 AP, 45 armor, costs 2900, 120sec CD and gives 10% CDR

Like what the hell? Even if we put aside the fact that it gives 75 AP cuz ap spells have different scaling and also those 5 armors which are equivalent to 1/3 of cloth armor which 1/3 costs exactly 100, the cost diff between GA and zhonya, but why the hell does it also gives those 10% CDR?

IllabetheDec 15, 20192 votes

Where do you have stats that argue that Zhonya's is seen as the most unhealthy item?
You only get about 4-5 Zhonya uses a game. Good lucky dodging more damage with it.
It's a joke to claim that Zhonya's gets you out unscathed. If anything it makes you a sitting duck, unless those 2 seconds were enough to bring up your skill cooldowns and you somehow skill before you die. (This assumption seems like a low elo assumption)

HideSideDec 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Where do you have stats that argue that Zhonya's is seen as the most unhealthy item?

You only get about 4-5 Zhonya uses a game. Good lucky dodging more damage with it.

It's a joke to claim that Zhonya's gets you out unscathed. If anything it makes you a sitting duck, unless those 2 seconds were enough to bring up your skill cooldowns and you somehow skill before you die. (This assumption seems like a low elo assumption)

You give me proof that its not :D
You sucked these numbers out of your d;ck, I guess. By this logic you get only 2 uses of GA which is still worse than 4 -5...
Its joke that someone even try to deny my nose between my eyes... If anything, during GA you are even less than "sitting duck" unless those 50% bonus HP are enough to beat your opponent/ to get out. (but lol isnt only about you against all enemies)

(This assumption seems like a low elo assumption)

Lol, I would never expect to hear this from hardstuck silver... Your low elo assumptions of how zhonya works in practice doesn't change anything. They are based on experience of low elo player. (Like mine assumption is based on theory bud still on valid one...) And last thing, what a coincidence that you play one of abusers of this item. You totally seem to be impartial... ( especially with such arguments)

IllabetheDec 15, 20191 votes

I'm Diamond II, and at that elo, Zhonyas is almost completely an offensive item. In other words, used to execute combos that otherwise wouldn't complete while situationally also stasising vs some important skill shot to void.

It isn't used to do one or the other, and not really used because "you can get out scott free after."

P.S. Are you talking about Morgana? I barely EVER buy Zhonyas on her, because I play her differently. I jungle her, sometimes pure tank her, and often on hit her, because ironically, auto based builds accelerate her W tick damage rate so in a role that allows it, it actually makes sense. I only get a Zhonyas if a Zed has gone off the train, or situationally to a really fed Kayn or Mordekaiser.

HideSideDec 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I'm Diamond II, and at that elo, Zhonyas is almost completely an offensive item. In other words, used to execute combos that otherwise wouldn't complete while situationally also stasising vs some important skill shot to void.

It isn't used to do one or the other, and not really used because "you can get out scott free after."

P.S. Are you talking about Morgana? I barely EVER buy Zhonyas on her, because I play her differently. I jungle her, sometimes pure tank her, and often on hit her, because ironically, auto based builds accelerate her W tick damage rate so in a role that allows it, it actually makes sense. I only get a Zhonyas if a Zed has gone off the train, or situationally to a really fed Kayn or Mordekaiser.

All you said here doesnt go against what I said beside that you Are hardstuck silver... If you are smurf then I really dont get why you are still silver on this acc with so much games played ( around 900 ranked games) + how does your body even world when you play at both accs ( when we consider that there are other things in life than lol). Only reasonable answers I can think of are that you are either lying or bought that diamond acc... + U dont use zhonya a lot? After grail, archeangel and tabies, its your mostly used non core item in recent games.

IllabetheDec 15, 20191 votes

3500 games/year. Takes about 77 total days out of 365.

I work 25% to 38.5% of the year (not including commutes, shopping, etc), or on average 91.5 days to 140.525 days

That leaves 148 to 196.5 days. Assuming about 20% of the year (hours after work) are spent mostly exhausted after pulling 12 hour shifts, and 2 hours are spent gaming (already accounted for), takes about another 71.2 days.

That leaves .... 76.8 Days to 125.3 days. After all games. After all work. After all sleep. I spend that time playing with my 4 year Autistic son named August, his appointments, therapies, and working on and expanding a greenhouse, shopping, etc. I'm planning a business around said Greenhouses to create a potential "world" for that 4 year old with Autism, because I want to make sure we have bases covered for him when he grows up, because I know how harsh the real world is for employing a guy with Autism. I'm also talking with a local AAMP chapter to turn this into a project that will eventually employ their kids with disabilities as well, because growing things happens to be an area of expertise where kids with challenges adapt to well.

(Ofc if I fully fledge the idea into a commercial business, I'll be taking a lot of those already existing work hours and using them for another work idea, but I'd be a lot happier...)

Why do you think Morgana ult was modified so she could chase the people she's tethering? Oh right. It's because she's not supposed to be stationary.

There are games where outright having a item 3075 cored build is just far superior to having the added AP and stasis. You changed your playstyle in these games to be a bait and switch, and not expect to outright kill, but they ARE successful.

P.S. Most Morganas are generally better off with Luden's than with a Seraph's. Seraph's interrupts her power spiking if that's the route you're taking. I do Archangel Nami.

I have had a few games where I had to deal with an oppressive Jinx that someone fed, or a 10/1 Zed. It's hard to use her Ult at all without it when you have a feeding team and the other team is going everywhere as a 5 man team, and you try to peel for teammates which leaves you as a target. Doesn't happen as much at higher elo. Happens all the time in low elo.

HideSideDec 15, 20191 votes

Ok then... GL with your business. :-)

IllabetheDec 15, 20191 votes

Because Nautilus, Blitz, Pyke, Leona, Garen, etc..... are all totally mages (including Garen because he's no longer really all that immobile, and if he Silences you, you're pretty much dead).

CurS1VEDec 15, 20192 votes

I didn't read all the replies cause honestly I think ppl just want to disagree with you (or any post)

I actually think you are spot on and frankly I've never really thought about it too much. People have sometimes said things about the items you listed and I'm like "Ya it is kinda weird" but when you brought up the boots with Tenacity I think that made everything clear.

Maybe Riot needs to look at finding ways for players in game to "Enchant" Or to 'Add' a certain Variable onto a Item that isn't traditionally there. (Think jg item enchants but for different items)

Going forward this actually makes more sense in the Evolution of the Game, rather than trying to Make "New Items" that just add to the balancing act it would actually be better to give players the option to Enchant what they need to an item (obv certain items, like boots for example).

Honestly Boots should be more diverse overall imo and I never thought about it till you said what you said. Same thing with the Zhonya's active, I know Stopwatch exists but going forward it seems a bit biased to say "Only Mages can have this powerful effect with no counterplay" I mean there isn't any item in the game that STOPS active items! So essentially once a Mage has Zhonya's they will always have an option that no other class has just because they are a Mage which is a bit narrow and honestly ridiculous going forward in 10 years of League.