Boards›Gameplay

can we talk about Vlad for a second?

Sir Sneaky Beaky··14 votes·9,101 views

- Diamond + ranked solo stats pulled from U.GG these stats are lower then FLEX and i believe my explanation on why i think his P/B backs this up -

top 31.0% - ban rate 7.3% - pick rate 48.47% win rate

Mid 31.0% ban rate** 5.9% pick rate. 48.87% win rate

Theres a 44.2% chance this dudes banned or picked in diamond +

he has the second highest ban rate in diamond + Top he has the 34th highest win rate in diamond + Top he has the third highest ban rate in diamond + Mid He has the 32nd highest win rate in diamond + Mid

**Why? **

With this context we can see for some reason despite being an extreamly high P/B champion Vladimir is very far from being in a postion for those rates. What makes him such a P/B?

I personally believe its his laning phase. Where other champions can be have more impact map wide from an early point. you know that hes a safe pick. hes in a position where you wont have to worry about ever losing your lane. Worse case senerio you can even allow crashing to occur, maintain farm, and out trade if they go for turret plating.

You're also at a much lower risk for being dove thanks to his general surviability with Pool and a commencing/stop watch.

in turn because of this you end up in a situation where you heavily relay on your team. You are gambling that you trade a stagnant lane on the rest of your team out performing. Where i don't think this play style is a negative to the game. I do believe that it really kills the already struggling top lane meta and damages mid in the sense that because of his large wave control you cant prevent him from maintaining gold. You also cannot roam due to the fact he will counter crash and grab turret plating.

Im by far not a professional game analyst, game designer, or of a high enough ELO/MMR to say exactly what the problem is. however it does feel the champion has a problem that needs to be solved either through some clever redesign or balancing.

Aatrox cringes at the redesign comment Aatrox

39 Comments

WoonStruck13 votes

Wait, did you just suggest vlad has wave control? He sucks at pushing until at least level 12.

One mistimed/over/under charged E ruins an entire wave as far as csing under turret.

He cant freeze mid because everyone can break it safely.

Top lane is a gamble because most of the laners eat you alive if they actually punish your CDs.

And either way you're still at the mercy of your team.

TehNACHO9 votes

Having the spell cast and auto attack range advantage is often good enough to establish lane control, at least in the case of Top Lane Vlad.

But yeah until he has some items under his belt the damage behind his waveclear is pretty bad.

WoonStruck8 votes

Vlad's auto range is very punishable to most top laners. His CDs are as well, before considering that a lot of bruisers actually out-range you as far as abilities. He only has lane control before first back if he doesnt pull out a significant lead.

If you took magical footwear and they buy boots first back, they wont let you touch the wave until it crashes into turret if they're smart.

Part of the reason he grabs protobelt first is how terrible and punishable his waveclear is.

You have to remember he has one of the worst ranges among ranged champs, one of the worst base MS, and utterly lacks utility. If you want to get onto him, you easily can with most champs before he grabs sorc shoes.

His early is extremely punishable. Most top laners respect you way too much when playing Vlad. If his empowered Q isnt up, go ham. Especially if he just used E. Even if he uses phase rush+pool, that gives you 30+ seconds of complete lane control, barring jungle interference.

TehNACHO4 votes

Just to be clear, you're preaching to the choir man.

WoonStruck7 votes

Just saying because hashinshin fans and a lot of the boards seem to think vlad is some untouchable god.

TehNACHO4 votes

Yeah, Top Lane is just full of broken and untouchable champions that take no skill and are absolutely no fun to play against after all.

WoonStruck2 votes

Yeah part of the reason I stopped playing bruisers and started playing vlad was so I didn't have to deal with how bullshit being melee was into most of the MELEE match-ups.

Pre-rework Irelia into pre-rework darius? Literally nothing you could do unless your jungler bailed you out. Irelia, Jax, etc into singed or malphite? Nothing you can do to him.

Then there's the ranged bullies. The ACTUAL ranged bullies; not just ranged top laners. Somebody decided to play quinn or teemo? Hope you have fun not being able to lane for the next 15 minutes.

Śhunpo1 votes

Vlad is toxic in his current state. He should just be reverted.

Minimac20001 votes

{quoted}

Vlad's auto range is very punishable to most top laners. His CDs are as well, before considering that a lot of bruisers actually out-range you as far as abilities. He only has lane control before first back if he doesnt pull out a significant lead.

If you took magical footwear and they buy boots first back, they wont let you touch the wave until it crashes into turret if they're smart.

Part of the reason he grabs protobelt first is how terrible and punishable his waveclear is.

You have to remember he has one of the worst ranges among ranged champs, one of the worst base MS, and utterly lacks utility. If you want to get onto him, you easily can with most champs before he grabs sorc shoes.

His early is extremely punishable. Most top laners respect you way too much when playing Vlad. If his empowered Q isnt up, go ham. Especially if he just used E. Even if he uses phase rush+pool, that gives you 30+ seconds of complete lane control, barring jungle interference.

Not every top laner is capable of going ham every time his empowered q is dow n. Not everyone plays champs with no cds like riven and kennen. And most of the time vlads will not use empowered q and e at the same time. So the melee champ attempts to engage after vlad uses q, if he reaches vlad vlad pools and kites unpools releases e boom vlad lost 20% current hp (from pool) enemy melee lost 25% max hp. Even if the vlad player really fucks up and has pool on cd as well they still kite and hit the melee with e and slow and auto them while walking away so even if the melee took 25% hp for a 50% hp trade on vlad it isn't worth it bc vlad has infinite sustain so trading actually is counterproductive and doesn't help unless you can instantly kill him

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

Not every top laner is capable of going ham every time his empowered q is dow n. Not everyone plays champs with no cds like riven and kennen. And most of the time vlads will not use empowered q and e at the same time. So the melee champ attempts to engage after vlad uses q, if he reaches vlad vlad pools and kites unpools releases e boom vlad lost 20% current hp (from pool) enemy melee lost 25% max hp. Even if the vlad player really fucks up and has pool on cd as well they still kite and hit the melee with e and slow and auto them while walking away so even if the melee took 25% hp for a 50% hp trade on vlad it isn't worth it bc vlad has infinite sustain so trading actually is counterproductive and doesn't help unless you can instantly kill him

Wait, you think vlad deals good damage with E during laning? Please go play him and tell me how helpless you feel, expecting it to do good damage before sorc shoes and 1 completed item.

Also, Vlad's sustain is horrible basically any point before level 9. Almost any champ can poke for more than he heals and more often mid, or trade more frequently and for more than he heals.

Minimac20001 votes

{quoted}

Wait, you think vlad deals good damage with E during laning? Please go play him and tell me how helpless you feel, expecting it to do good damage before sorc shoes and 1 completed item.

Also, Vlad's sustain is horrible basically any point before level 9. Almost any champ can poke for more than he heals and more often mid, or trade more frequently and for more than he heals.

I've played him and against him. He's basically just worse kayle with more safety and his damage isn't as negligible as you think and it adds up unlike damage on vlad which disappears the next time he empowered qs

Sir Sneaky Beaky3 votes

A lot of interesting discussion.

I see alot of people bringing up hashinshin

I didnt really take his opinions into consideration. Where hes mechanically good. He lacks a lot of awareness and tends to snowball on his own frustrations with the game.

I was mainly looking at the raw data. In ranked flex you see an almost 50% P/B rate despite Vladimir having a negitive win rate.

Personally i feel vlad needs a reboot. His current kit and mechanics are from an era of the game being much simplier.

How to reboot him im not sure.

Though there could be an interesting play on his design to make him a much more interesting champion with a place. Instead of a P/B safety pick.

Hopefully in the direction of a morde postive rework and not an aatrox rework that has seen difficult time finding where riot wants him.

As for the wave clear I have always found sorc shoes protobelt rush has always been more then enough to gurentee an even lane phase.

WoonStruck1 votes

If Riot rebooted vlad he'd be even more frustrating to face than he currently is. Look at their track record. They'd double down on his late game scaling.

Also how does 3700g guarantee an even laning phase? 4600 if you include codex first. Thats 50% of the gold you'll be spending the entire match in a lot of cases. You're already winning or losing hard by that point.

Sir Sneaky Beaky1 votes

2500 gold on proto makes it an extreamly good item on vlad due to his passive giving AP for HP.

If you top out at 7200gold a match you match for 3600 being 50% you may need to relook at how you play.

Average for vladimir is around 11,000 per match with average tops ending around 13,000

WoonStruck1 votes

I said 4600 for the codex you WILL be purchasing before you finish protobelt. Plus sorc shoes.

Most matches are effectively decided or over by the time you hit 4600, let alone 10k gold.

Point is that finishing protobelt equates to mid-game. Laning phase is over by that time, and has been for a while unless you're absurdly fed.

Also, if you're getting your numbers from champion.gg, that site's statistics are no longer reliable. At all. There's a reason people stopped using it.

Even league of graphs says ~10600g average. 4600g is just 700 shy of being 50% of his average gold. That's not even 2 basic components or a tier 2 component of any kind for him.

macspam3 votes

Vlad is really scaling reliant. He loses early and mid against most ranged champs and melees with mobility. If you are playing an immobile toplaner against him you lost the rock paper scissors and needing Vlad isn't going to fix that. Have fun playing against ryze, Quinn, or teemo instead.

Sir Sneaky Beaky1 votes

teemo typically has 0 anti all in unless the champion highly relies on auto attacks.

we dont utter the Q name around top lane. no thing scares me, but that thing. that thing is a nightmare.

Ryze typically tends to fall short since they changed him snare mechanic around. hes still a monster but at least a monster that can be handled.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

there is nothing to talk about

he's also getting nerfed thanks to preseason changes, like the doran's shield buff on melees

FSRER1 votes

A wise unstoppable man once said "Just make him to heal reduced hp from minions" A nerf that will make him punishable at early game without making him useless late game (That or remove his ability to heal when he is in Zhonyas)

Sir Sneaky Beaky1 votes

He already has 35% reduction on minons. He however could use some risk for his reward in trades with others.

It shouldnt be a press empowered Q "oh theyre engaging on me?" Press w and scurry away while having a net 0 and winning trade.

RacoonHunter1 votes

I agree. Although he has some flaws, the reason he's p/b the most is because of how much of a monster he becomes mid/late game. His q can heal him up to full almost, is point and click (like honestly most of his spells) and the way he builds, if he builds defensive, he will still do damage. His saftey is also up there.

The W combined with Hourglass means he's about the fizz level of annoyance in terms of survivability on a much lower cd than fizz e (oh and allows him to do damage while healing himself)

Healing reduction needs a rework. I have seen vlads with and without spirit visages tank entire teams (ala mundo) because the q gets to be on like a 1-2 second cd. Sure healing reduction works in the early game, but that's only because I believe it's designed for the early game and not mid/late when most if not all tanks or people with self heals get Spirit visage. I personally think this is because Damage is WAY to friggen high right now which also means it's less effective. especially when a vlad is healing for 500-600 per q even after reduction because of how much AP he has..

Riot wonders why champions are almost perma banned.. yet, refuses to even look at the main reasons why claiming skill of the champion is 100% the reason why...

Sir Sneaky Beaky1 votes

I think part of the issue is his empowered q and passive synergy as tank.

296(+111%ap) dmg With his heal being max hp as well. He then gets ap for bonus hp.

Spirit visage, proto, and rylias. Theyre all extreamly synergy items for him

WoonStruck1 votes

Spirit visage gimps his damage heavily and will almost never be built unless he really needs MR.

Rylai's is one of his most situational items. Even moreso than Liandry's.

Spellbinder does the same thing for him while offering him 1v9 potential from flanking, avoiding CC, and avoiding being kited by the ADC. Then the active doubling down on it and granting a massive MS+AP bonus.

Sir Sneaky Beaky2 votes

Woon im not trying to be rude. But you are a gold 1 Vladimir one trick. I feel like youre on the extream bias side of "dont change my champion".

If he really didnt have any problems he would not average a top 2 - 3 pick ban average for over 5 seasons.

The issue is nerfing him would remove the only reason (all be it a few people who enjoy playing him) to play him.

He fundamentally needs brought up to current standards with a rework. He probably on a list somewhere after the vollie and fiddlesticks rework if i was a betting man.

The highest win rate in diamond + of 58.94% over 1400 matches is proto rush (not even T1 boots), into straight sorce shoes.

That is the essential must to play Vladimir.

Followed by rabs into either zhons if they are heavy ad or spirit if theyre AP / mixed damage.

Sir Sneaky Beaky1 votes

If you dig into his counters. Just based on raw diamond + statisics of who wins vs him.

He has 3 counters top lane Nasus, trndymere, irelia 1 counter mid Zoe 1 adc counter Draven 4 jungle counters Shaco, graves, olad, karth

Nasus has the ability of infinitely scaling and never leaving top. No matter what a good nasus player maintains stacking rates. Its why the champion has almost an 80% win rate in games longer then 40 minutes.

Trndymere has the advantage of just raw damage and a do not die button which allow s extream abuse of vlad only weakness which is sustained all in

Irelia Well theres even a song about nerfing irelia. Shes insane when played mechanically well.

Zoe Is a monster. Multiple damage passives and one of the hardest bursts in the game without ever getting into a trade if played well.

Draven Benefits from stacking BT and sustain runes with his q damage. This allows him to turn after the burst and be back up to full before the second burst.

Jungles i feel like are just the most played currently and play off the fact they can force 2v1s consistently in top lane in todays meta.

WoonStruck1 votes

You're missing loads of counters btw.

Anivia, ryze, ori, malz, etc are well known counters.

Aatrox, heimer, jayce, kayle, kass, kled, yorick, riven, renekton, rumble, etc all do VERY well into him.

Seriously, yorick, aniv, and ori are some of his hardest counters.

You just going off winrates for counters doesn't really have merit. Just because a champ wins more doesn't mean they counter you. It means they're more reliable than you.

You're going to argue that ryze and aatrox dont counter him because "muh winrate" when both have horrible winrates in solo queue?...and lately so does vlad. Yet they both trash him in lane.

Sir Sneaky Beaky1 votes

he generally walks over both. because you have issues with them doesn't mean they are "Counters".

WoonStruck1 votes

He doesn't generally walk over both lmao.

Aatrox has a massive 600 exp lead over him at 15 minutes, and 750 gold over him. And averages a kill in the majority of games before 15 minutes vs him.

Ryze out-ranges him and out-damages him from level 1 to 18. He heals more than Vlad does with the help of Ravenous Hunter and catalyst FFS.

If you think he walks over both of them, you've clearly never played Vlad enough to have a valid opinion of him.

WoonStruck1 votes

Show me where you got your info, because I'm extremely sure you are reading something incorrectly. Vlad hasn't had a high banrate with the exception of now outside of relevancy in proplay.

Everyone knows 1700g is the optimal first back for kindlegem+codex. The only reason you dont get T1 boots is because you take magical footwear most of the time.

Also, not sure what my rank has to do with anything.

Sir Sneaky Beaky1 votes

Data is hard

https://imgur.com/a/AsSbsrL

WoonStruck1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Sneaky Beaky,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EVuATbtO,comment-id=000300000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-11-16T21:42:21.663+0000)

Data is hard

https://imgur.com/a/AsSbsrL

I'm talking about this line

If he really didnt have any problems he would not average a top 2 - 3 pick ban average for over 5 seasons.

He hasn't been top 2-3 pin OR ban for over 5 seasons by any stretch of the imagination. Hell, he's not top 2-3 pick ban average right now, even.

Also, stop cherry picking your stats from diamond+ top lane. In masters+ his ban rate is only 21%, and in plat+ its only 25%. Trying to use diamond top lane stats only just because the numbers suit your argument doesn't look good for you.

You wanna know his ban rate in challenger? 9.4%. But you probably don't want to talk about that because it doesn't suit your argument, right?

WoonStruck1 votes

Did you really just say Vlad's 28-16 second CD W has a lower CD than fizz's 16-10 second CD E? Lmao. What are you smoking? His W's damage is lackluster, and the healing even moreso. Vlad also doesn't have mobility on his W, unlike Fizz E. Fizz ALSO doesn't have delays that get him killed after coming out of E/zhonya's.

Vlad is also NEVER healing 500-600 per Q after reduction. Empowered Q, maybe if he's almost dead. Every Q? Go into practice tool and check if you can even hit 600 per Q WITHOUT reduction without stacking RoAs.

Modl Ryden l1 votes

No talk about Vlad! Pyke and Senna discussions rantz only!

jk.

But for sure facing him in lane is a total pain the ass. He's one of those champions that stay in lane almost indefinitely after a certain level or after purchasing a certain item. Then once Vlad gets cozy, you're having to play catchup and keep away after buying an Executioner's Calling.

To me, he's one of those champs that fall under the radar despite having a really strong kit. If the other team can't consistently reduce heals on Vlad OR if Vlad's team is loaded with some extra heals then Vlad becomes a champion that becomes very difficult to deal with in later stages of the game.

Sir Sneaky Beaky1 votes

hears pykes w sound

Adcs : " REEEEEEE"

I feel like senna will blow over. Shes strong but after the ceremonial post release nerf she will find her spot.

Pyke, he either goes so hard hes 1v9 or ints so hard hes a 6th memeber of the other team lol.

Grevious wounds could use a buff. Maybe a passive that it reduces healing 30% (down from its current 40%) Also causes champions to bleed for 30% of healing during its duration. (Up 20%)

It wouldnt make it impactful as a burst option on champions such as zoe and nidalee.

It would however make it much more effective for longer trades on kled for example.

5050BS1 votes

He is like Yasuo and Akali, Lots of people play him and play him BADLY while those that learn him can stomp without any real counter play.

So his win rates are bad and his p/b are like that.

Sir Sneaky Beaky1 votes

The issue is you look at diamond + at that level almost anyone can play a champion with no mechanics with a low skill ceiling at the same level a professional would.

Differing factor for a champion as vlad becomes map awareness, objective playing, and focus.

Like i dont expect rando to play akali or swain like hes on G2. I however expect that of rando on vlad.

WoonStruck1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Sneaky Beaky,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EVuATbtO,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-11-16T12:56:02.115+0000)

The issue is you look at diamond + at that level almost anyone can play a champion with no mechanics with a low skill ceiling at the same level a professional would.

Differing factor for a champion as vlad becomes map awareness, objective playing, and focus.

Like i dont expect rando to play akali or swain like hes on G2. I however expect that of rando on vlad.

Vlad actually does take skill. Please take a look at his winrate in each tier and notice how it goes down the further down you go.

Otherwise he would have a great winrate at lower tiers.

Not being mechanically intensive doesnt mean a character lacks skill expression. He's not Garen. He can't just go in and expect to come out ahead.

Sir Sneaky Beaky1 votes

u.gg / NA.GG / mobalytics.gg

they all pull the same information. Specifically I use U.GG as they pass through the raw data from RIOT's API and dont input their opinion. just because your experience is mid Elo doesn't make that how the game is.

you yourself above state that you started spamming Vlad because of ranged matchup's.

WoonStruck1 votes

I started playing Vlad because MELEE champions were being designed to auto-win if they get in range. That's kind of hard to play around when you are also melee. I didn't start playing Vlad because of ranged match-ups. Old Irelia crushed the majority of ranged top laners.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Sir Sneaky Beaky

Afk in ranked , Deserving a Loss prevented?
Gameplay2 comments
1
votes
AD / Bruiser Nidalee builds. Do you miss?
Gameplay2 comments
1
votes
Can someone explain.
[ARCHIVED] Gameplay+0 comments
1
votes
LF 5's team ( gold 3 player )
[ARCHIVED] Player Recruitment0 comments
1
votes