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My suggestion on how to make tanks playable but not like in the past

Mâtchless··1 votes·1,571 views

Hey Riot Games and players,

I just thought about the tank problems we always have. For the end of this year, tanks are almost gone as we can all clearly see. That's not only because Bruisers are more OP and more viable but also because we had so many tank/adc metas that (at least that's what I guess) Riot wanted to stop this. So now we got a meta where it's mostly about those playmaker champs and while tanks are almost non-existent, adcs actually do exist but they aren't as important as they were used to.

So what do I suggest? If we think about what a tank should be able to (no matter what game) a tank usually should be able to survive for a long time and makes it hard for the enemy to get through him/her. To be this kind of tank our LoL champions usually have things like higher base stats + scaling with hp/armor/mr. Usually what Riot focuses on (at least imo) is to make sure tanks still have enough damage to be relevant in the game. And in tank metas we always had some tanks who did way more damage than usual Bruisers or even adcs at some point and still are unkillable because of their items/healings etc.

I think we could try another strategy. Since Riot Games always tried to change things like armor and magic resistance, I thought about trying to for the hp. But HP alone might be way too easy so I thought: let's go crazier and make things like Cho'Gath's size a thing for tank. Now for some details (or kind of details?): By giving tanks more health points, they are tanky as they should be. Unlike armor and mr, I think health is pretty easy to balance since we only have life regeneration to think of. MR and Armor on the other hand are always involved in spells and items. Making them HP-heavier means that you need to go for either crit or on-hit/high dps. Burst should be weak against them. That gives adc their old spot. So now for the damage, I think tanks shouldn't do any big damage in the late game. Their main task should be CC'ing and peeling. Players will need to kill tanks because otherwise they get CC'd 24/7 but they actually can't get killed by tanks except maybe squishy supports.

So no you may think: 'And what about the size now?' Well, the idea is that bigger champs will make it so much harder to actually hit anything in the backline. Just think about warriors with shields. You actually don't care about them because you need to kill those archers first. But they are in your way with a big shield. What does the shield do except for blocking? Well not that much since the only way you get damaged is when the just hit you with it. And it's easy to say that a shield doesn't hurt as much as a sword or an arrow, right?

So that's my suggestion. Tbh, I can't really underline this with any calculations or statistics. For me, it's just a complete different idea from what Riot did in the past. I just think that we can't bring back tanks (without getting too OP) without risking to change them in a different way. For me, this could be a solution. Of course, the details are important like how big should tanks be and what is really 'more hp' and not too much etc. But if any Riot balance team employee sees this maybe it could lead into something.

Please go easy on me, I'm just a Plat player. Also my English sucks, I'm sorry. I hope it's still readable!

8 Comments

Chainman31 votes

I got a few of questions for you about this idea.

  1. How would you increase tank’s hp? Hp/level? Flat hp? Or more hp on tank items?
  2. How do you kill a tank if they’re cc’ing you 24/7 and feel unkillable?
  3. How long do you believe a tank should survive before being killed on average? Because currently tanks survive 6-8x longer than squishy characters. (2-3 seconds as opposed to the .1-.5 second deaths squishier characters get) Side note: I didn’t downvote you. So whoever did didn’t choose to respond.
The Kombinator1 votes

{quoted}

I got a few of questions for you about this idea.

  1. How would you increase tank’s hp? Hp/level? Flat hp? Or more hp on tank items?
  2. How do you kill a tank if they’re cc’ing you 24/7 and feel unkillable?
  3. How long do you believe a tank should survive before being killed on average? Because currently tanks survive 6-8x longer than squishy characters. (2-3 seconds as opposed to the .1-.5 second deaths squishier characters get) Side note: I didn’t downvote you. So whoever did didn’t choose to respond.

  1. Plenty of ways. I'm not agree with OP's health style, but there are a tons of way.

  2. Most tanks have no exceptional CC. They can't stun you 24/7. Yeah sure you get a few seconds. Maybe 3 on top, and usually that requires a long CD skill. Lux, Morgana, Fiddle, Ashe, Varrus, and i'm sure, that many other can do similar. If all tanks could stun like 50% of the time for 20 seconds, then they would be a good reason to focus.

I think, that the 3. should be 5 to 10. There are champion with secondary defenses, that allow you 5 second survival with 0 tank item. Though even in current system it's partly up to game time. Tanks are weak in early, shine in mid, and weak in late again. The late game survival should be increased to at least early game level.

Chainman31 votes
  1. What ways is what I was asking.
  2. Stuns or cc?

I don’t quite understand what you’re referring to when you say “secondary defenses” like ww’s dmg reduction?

The Kombinator1 votes

{quoted}

  1. What ways is what I was asking.
  2. Stuns or cc?

I don’t quite understand what you’re referring to when you say “secondary defenses” like ww’s dmg reduction?

That is one though not exactly strong. Strong one is Trynd ult, Vlad untargetability, Jax's immunity to AA, Yi's q. Stuff that makes you untargetable, or immune to certain damage methods. Unless the damage reduction is seriously large like Yi's E. Stuff, that heal you BIG, or reposition you also can be considered such. Ekko ult for example.

For the second part. I mean CC that fix you in place in general. Let's face it. For most champion any form of CC, that doesn't allow you to move is a death sentence.

Chainman31 votes

But then cant you make the same argument for ranged champions. Saying they're immune to melee attacks all game where jax vlad yi and trynd are only immune during certain moments. Vlad's W cd time is in the double digits. Yi needs to be constantly auto attacking to get his Q on short cds, Jax can still take dmg and has to lose his immunity to do cc (which spear of shojin unbalances but thats the items problem not the champion).

I dont feel the second part is valid because normally a tank will survive the first round of cds and then be in danger of dying so being hit with cc wouldnt kill you in a teamfight because you'd be tanky enough to surrvive that.

The Kombinator1 votes

{quoted}

But then cant you make the same argument for ranged champions. Saying they're immune to melee attacks all game where jax vlad yi and trynd are only immune during certain moments. Vlad's W cd time is in the double digits. Yi needs to be constantly auto attacking to get his Q on short cds, Jax can still take dmg and has to lose his immunity to do cc (which spear of shojin unbalances but thats the items problem not the champion).

I dont feel the second part is valid because normally a tank will survive the first round of cds and then be in danger of dying so being hit with cc wouldnt kill you in a teamfight because you'd be tanky enough to surrvive that.

Ranged champions aren't immune to melee attacks once the melee champion gets into range, and most melee champion has ways to do that. Vlad's W is 9,6 sec. on full rank 40% CDR. But i might remind you, that Vlad gets a big health pool no matter what, and he has a serious self heal too. So you need to beat him to near death, then wait for pool, then wait for zhonya. The pool, and zhonya alone are 5 seconds. Which is more, than what you can survive as a tank in lategame.

Jax only takes damage from abilities, and he has considerable resistance from ult. Losing his immunity for CC is worth it, if you CC enough, and if you don't then just don't recast it. A Jax given the right circumstances will survive better, than any stat based tank in any gear in lategame.

On ARAM my Rammus in pure armor+health build died to 5 AD with no Vayne, or Yi among them in 1,9s.. As Leona i die in lategame before W goes down. Which is 6 seconds. By this logic i might just go Tryndamere. 5 second guaranteed survival, and unlike Leona i kill everyone with it, if they ignore me.

Which lead us to the second problem. Certain tanks can be simply ignored, if they go for full tank build. You just kill their entire team, and once you are in many vs 1, then you focus him. Leona, and Nautilus are great examples. Their mid, and lategame damage is worthless unless you build damage, and if you build damage, then you gona die almost fast as an ADC. Riot tries to give reason to focus tanks by increasing their damage. Which leads to a serious problem.

If they are tanky, and got damage, then it's op. If they are tanky, but no damage, then it's worthless against good players. If they got damage, but not tanky, then they are not tanks. OP's suggestion of blocking stuff simply by being there would allow tanks to be a great help to the team, but without killing everyone on his own.

Just like in Smite. In that game most tanks are classified as "guardian", and they are more like the support category. They can't do much on their own. Give them someone who deals damage, and together they can do a LOT.

Another way would be give tanks TONS of CC while reducing their damage to dust without AP, or AD. Rammus could stack up 3 taunt, and gain stack every 10 second on base. CD between taunt stacks would be minimal. That way he could taunt 3 people for 3 seconds each, or just keep one person taunted for long. In return you would erase his damage from armor, and increase his damage from AP. He would be a force to reckon with even with minimal damage, because of the strong CC. Give same to Leona Q, and E. Maybe only on higher ranks so she won't be super op in early. She would be a force to reckon with even with 0 damage. Someone who can make a similar difference as a good Yi, or Vayne.

Chainman31 votes

True vlad does have a huge health pool and alot of cdr, but he isnt too strong early in mid lane and top lane he's prone to ganks because the length of the lane. His self heal can be countered very easily. with ignite, executioners, and braumblevest. My point was theres points where those champions you named are immune but theyre not always immune, in much the same case i was saying adcs are immune to melee attacks. The condition is his cooldown on his W is up which 10 seconds is enough to kill him in when champs are dying in .5-3 seconds top. Your idea of pooling and tank for 5 seconds are more than a tank can survive is a good point but the fact that vlad is untargetable means hes not actually tanking, you're more than welcome to switch targets while hes in these and switch back onto him when he comes out. You can consider poor target selection as vlad tanking.

For jax spear of shojin without a doubt is broken on him everyone knows it. Remove that item and jax isnt as strong as you describe him to be. Allow a good adc player 2-3 cc's on jax and see how jax falls even with spear. And the resistances jax's gets from his ult just steer him away from buying any since stacking resistances actually makes the resistance worth less in terms of dmg reduced. (example: the first 10 armor you buy is worth more in dmg reduced/armor than the next 10 armor and so on.) So the more armor you have the less potent each armor item actually is.In this case jax focuses on buying health and cdr with dmg and relies on his ulti for resistances, which makes him weaker when his ult is down much like other champions.

I wont comment on aram because gold is earned faster and team comps are different. Engaging is different, item builds are different plastyle is different. So i wouldnt use aram as an accurate depiction. Let me also say anecdotal evidence is weak evidence to use and you should steer away from it. Because i could just as easily label a game where rammus or leona never died and were surviving 10+ seconds. That's all dependent on that specific game. Now as for trynd surviving longer than leona, if trynd gets cc'd he has no range or reliant gap closers without autoing. As long as your team isnt walking into tryndamere he isnt an issue. And saving your cc for after he spins is the best way to kill him. And unlike leona his kit is kitable where leona can stunlock you in place till you're dead.

Leona and Nautlius arent worthless late game, unless theyre standing by and watching their team die. I could build redemption/locket/knight's vow on both of them and do extremely well just peeling for my adc till they kill the entire team. This is my issue with players, they say you cant build tank and do something but your main job as a tank building tank is to tank. Dealing dmg isnt the only way of helping.

OP's suggestion would be breaking tanks by literally giving you the very thing you pointed out "If they are tanky, and got damage," You literally said it yourself. If they give tanks a free dmg reduction stat then tanks can now allocate more resources into dmg. Give assassins/mages free adaptive force like 15% free ad/ap. And adc's free attack speed or movementspeed. Give supports a free cdr to pass over the cap.

Ive never played smite for long. So getting into smite or judging it would be unwise for me, but what i will say is how does that differ from the current supports in league and tanks. Put a dmg dealer next them and they can do alot without anyone theyre weak right?

Taunting 3 people for 3 seconds each or taunting 1 person for 9 seconds doesnt seem broken to you? Basically allowing assassins to get by frontliners for free, allowing adc's to wipe characters with no threat to them, or even sticking an adc on a tank. Do you really think people pick rammus and leona for their dmg? Some people pick champs like lissandra and twisted fate as cc bots just because how strong cc can be. Do you think amumu is picked for his dmg or his AoE ulti? Same for sejuani. You're like those players that are like "I did the most dmg so i did the best on my team" while ignoring everything everyone else did around you. Ignoring the cc that was there to protect you, the frontliners and intiators that held up to give you time to do dmg. If you think of the game like "Their mid, and lategame damage is worthless unless you build damage", then why dont you get 4 others that think like this and queue up and play without a frontline. 5 adcs/mages/bruisers with all of them building dmg. Have them play the 4 champions, jax trynd vlad and yi. See how long you'll do well for. You'll see as you reach the higher elos where players understand the game better they'll punish these picks if theyre picked in off roles (Since you cant have all go top or jungle).

The Kombinator1 votes

In Smite this is pretty much how it works. Even basic attacks are skillshots, and most projectile attacks only hit first target. If you the big tank stood into the face of an adc, then he had no choice, but trying to re position, or shoot you. Basically all champions have a Braum shield from all direction. Minus the damage reduction effect, and tanks are larger in most cases.

The solution would be 2 rule, and giving the ability to be tanky. Whether it's health, mr, or armor it's irrelevant. Point is, that if you go pure tank, then enemy has hard time to kill.

The rule would be this:

Effects, that are defensive, AND self cast only would only, and ALWAYS scale with defensive stat. No extra self heal, or shield from AP, or AD. You wana be tankier as Riven? Buy defense. Her shield would scale with health so even a few item would make a bit more difference, than on an adc who has none.

Effects, that are offensive, or capable to directly defend teammates would ALWAYS go with AP, or AD. No more pure armor Malphite destroys someone. If you go pure defense, then you won't have any relevant damage. With the first part of the idea you could be still useful though. Even in full defense you could simply stand in front of your teammates, and take the damage instead of them. Or get into enemy face to block their way.

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