Why do we need assassins with these ridiculous mages?

Joe Blade··19 votes·2,183 views

TL;DR: What is the point to play asssassins, when mages are so strong overall and are much safer?

So I just got a game where Vel'Koz 1 shotted my Corki (with Tri-Force and Maw of Malmortius, the first gives just a little bit of HP, but the second is supposed to make sure you survive the initial AP burst), without landing anything except for his ult. So he pressed R, burnt my 1,8k HP, completely ignored the shield, because, guess what, it doesn't protect from true dmg. Oh, and while doing that, he also did damage to everyone else on his way, so we can at least double that dmg, considering he went for me, and others managed to get out. 3,6k dmg on one skill. That is a mage, that is not an assassin. I would expect him to have to land at least 3 out of 4 skills to be able kill me, but no. Just press R, deal around 2k dmg to everyone on the way, most of it true dmg, because now you dont have to proc the passive before ulting. That's great isn't it?

Then we got Syndra. IDK if i need explaining, but she turned into something Riot has try to get rid of while reworking LB and Rengar - point click 1 shot. Does Syndra has to land every Q, W, or E, to 1 shot someone? Not really. Enough Spheres around, and that's a 1 shot. Oh, plus she has a potential 5 man stun. Who need's tanks to initiate, when you have that?

Let's talk about Viktor. Probably one of the most known mages with a one-shot potential. 2 of his skills (which are not his ultimate) make him deal damage 4 times, with damage that is worth 4 skills. Oh and don't forget to add the lich-bane proc. And rylai proc. And his ult. He has been toned down a bit, but he's still able to one-shot people.

Now we got to Ryze. Not as strong in terms of one shot, but still with an ability to do that. I'm not going into much of detail on it, I haven't played him for some time, but I have recently heard Imaqtpie saying something like: "It's just better to go Syndra, and 1shot everyone, if she's banned, go Ryze and 1shot pretty much everyone, if it's banned too, just go for some other mage and 1shot everyone."

Veigar with his ridiculous scaling on every single skill, Brand and Zyra that deal more dmg as supports than some midlaners and adc, Malzahar with his unstoppable shove (did you know he regens MP from his E, so he almost never runs out of it) and 1 shot potential 1v1, Anivia with her E that does ridiculous amount of dmg for a 2 skill combo, Annie, Lux, Orianna (these 3 actually need to land every single skill to oneshot, but hey, they have strong utility or/and range).

Mages are somewhat not mobile, that's true, but they have safer lane phase due to their range, they all can shove lane, every single one of abovementioned have hard CC, they deal AOE dmg at safe range, and they have a 1 shot potential on primary targets (such as ADC). Oh and most of them are building rylai now which makes it a lot harder to duel them as an ADC. So why do we need assassins in this game, when you can play a much safer picks with a better early game, and better lategame scaling? (I didnt say a word about Exhaust neutering assassing, but that is included in the range part.)

Edit: This topic is about mages being overtuned, not about ADC being one-shot, although this matter still concerns me.

50 Comments

CppL14 votes

mages dont have mobility.

Penns11 votes

I get to have mobility, totally makes up for having no range, bad cc, no dps, no aoe, no wave clear, no utility, way larger burst windows with hard setup,... feelsbadman

bad arcade kitty3 votes

{quoted}

I get to have mobility, totally makes up for having no range, bad cc, no dps, no aoe, no wave clear, no utility, way larger burst windows with hard setup,... feelsbadman

is it zed crying or leblanc? or may be talon? or rengar? or khazix? or katarina?

LXII4 votes

Those champs all have a form of wave clear, but it's not siege breaking wave clear like Viktor, Velkoz, Syndra, etc all offer. Also of all the champs you listed only 2 of them have "hard" cc but only in the form of a root.

CppL7 votes

{quoted}

I get to have mobility, totally makes up for having no range, bad cc, no dps, no aoe, no wave clear, no utility, way larger burst windows with hard setup,... feelsbadman

Mobility is the most powerfull thing in this game.

Penns3 votes

Is that why virtually every meta mid laner is immobile? Ryze, Cassio, Viktor, Anivia, Malzahar, Vel Koz,... no good mid laner is gonna play an assassin if he wants to win unless he is like a one trick. Also adcs like Sivir, Ashe, Jhin, MF, Tiwtch or Jinx are/were all top tier while Kalista, Lucian and Ezreal have a negative win rate.

Big Lincoln1 votes

wouldn't really call cass or viktor immobile tbh

they are very very fast at weaving around teamfights

Penns2 votes

They have a situational speed boost.. Doesnt really seem like "mobility is the most powerful thing in this game" lol

Big Lincoln1 votes

its overrated

i'd rather have good waveclear tbh

Penns1 votes

Yeah, you can play around being immobile by positioning well in most cases, but you cant play around that Cait auto attacking your turret with her team if you just dont have wave clear.

WoonStruck3 votes

That's a complete fucking lie. Range is the most powerful thing.

Lovelle1 votes

True, but they have utility and damage, with the former being the best thing about them. Decent utility pretty much guarantees you can contribute something to the game, even when behind. Also, pretty much every mage that isn't Twisted Fate has at least some way to kite melees.

Nameless Voice12 votes

I feel that a decent number of mages that were changed in the MYMU actually became less healthy, or at the least less fun to play against.

Main offenders are Annie, Vel'koz, Veigar and Syndra.

Annie because her instant burst pattern didn't really change, but now she also gets a revenge-bear to kill you if you actually manage to take her down, and with no actual skill requirement from the Annie player to do so.

Vel'koz because I feel they pushed too much of his power into his ult, allowing him to kill squishies with just his ult (and maybe one other spell) without even landing the rest of his combo.

Veigar because his point-and-click ultimate scaling off missing health makes it even more generally useful and good at deleting anyone, not just mages any more.

Syndra mostly because of the upgrade on her W that makes it far too easy to both land the slow and to keep multiple spheres alive for a stronger ultimate.

ACENOX6 votes

careful

you're going to rustle people that are going to tell you that vel'koz is healthy.

Nameless Voice2 votes

Yup, already getting downvoted by them.

RogueWill1 votes

Annie got her Bear burst halved for the new tibbers, plus tibbers aura went also down so now she kills you during the duration of the stun and not at the very beggining, giving your teamates a chance to rescue you.

Nameless Voice2 votes

She got her burst reduced by 25 damage at all ranks and 15% AP. That's hardly "halved".

grug8 votes

every adc has a movement speed boost or some annoying ass mobility built into their kit except ashe and varus

Joe Blade2 votes

The post is not really about ADC being weak, it's just an additional explanation of what I feel as ADC main/Mid off-main. ADC are definitely not in that of a bad spot, but sometimes it just gets to me that I can get one-shotted by almost anything.

bad arcade kitty7 votes

mages are supposed to one shot adc/squishies, it's their job

their main difference from assassins it's they usually have more cc but less mobility and are ranged, also they usually have more aoe

both evaporate adc if they catch them

but then, if an adc catches a mage when their abilities are on cd the mage is a toast, not so sure if an adc catches an assassin

RocketRelm2 votes

Oh, if an ADC catches an assassin the assassin is also toast.

But they're unlikely to catch the assassin, period.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

[{quoted}](name=bad arcade kitty,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ERz37OPX,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-11-19T11:48:07.097+0000)

both evaporate adc if they catch them

you what? except rengar and kha'zix every assassins get evaporated by adc

Eedat6 votes

Immobile mages need to do a lot of damage or there would be absolutely no reason to pick them. Why would you pick such a vulnerable champ if they did as much damage as a highly mobile assassin? Trade offs must be made.

Penns6 votes

Of course there would... Range, wave clear, utility and cc for their team... No reason they also burst harder than assassins lol.

dunder kill2 votes

yeah but they're also very vulnerable. Some of the assassins could use some buffs or sure, but they also are much safer and much more adaptable to the situation

Penns4 votes

Assassins are melee so they are way more vulnerable than a mage that knows how to not position like a MonkeyKing ..

bad arcade kitty2 votes

{quoted}

Assassins are melee so they are way more vulnerable than a mage that knows how to not position like a MonkeyKing ..

assassins have great escapes

now go to play velk'koz and say me about his escapes

Penns4 votes

Whats the point of being able to jump away from that Sion or Darius or whatever when you cant do anything to him or his team? Id rather kite him with Rylais/just my kit as mage and actually do something lol.

Eedat1 votes

Yeah hes kind of got a point. Some assassins could use a buff, but immobile mages still need to do damage.

That being said some of them are already kinda ridiculous like Rengar

Penns2 votes

Rengar and Khazix are good, the others not really. Shaco maybe but I dont see him played that much. Of course they should do damage but they shouldnt oneshot you in no time like Viktor or Lux or even Xerath or other champs that arent supposed to be burst mages and have a lot of utility/range.

Stars Shaper2 votes

Assassins can oneshot mages while mages (being skillshot based mostly) won't have an easy life trying to catch an assa. Riot forced you "jump in and kill whoever you want" gameplay into actual decision making, sorry for you Zed/Talon/Fizz

Penns2 votes

A mage builds item 1057 , Fizz cant oneshot them anymore. A Viktor or a Syndra builds 1 item, Fizz is deleted instantly if he makes 1 mistake.

Stars Shaper2 votes

And here I thought MR stopped magic damage no matter the character.

Penns3 votes

Yeah but Fizz has 0 dps after the rework. He bursts once and thats it so surviving that does more than against a Cassio that has E up twice every second anyway or other mages that have sustained damage.

Seenan2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah but Fizz has 0 dps after the rework. He bursts once and thats it so surviving that does more than against a Cassio that has E up twice every second anyway or other mages that have sustained damage.

I don't think you realize how strong that burst is, lol. His active W proc when it's under best conditions can nearly chunk an ADC for half his hp if not more.

Penns1 votes

Half an adcs hp is over exaggerated but his burst mid game is really strong. The problem is that +10% or +20% healing/shielding power is on so many items now so supports like Janna are fking ridiculous now + items like Locket or Redemption are both basically a rank 3 Soraka ult for anyone in range.

And since, like I said, he has 0 dps now, just one shield that makes you survive his burst makes him 100% useless in a fight.

Dynikus5 votes

What is the point to play asssassins, when mages are so strong overall and are much safer?

mobility.

VoidBorn134 votes

Ok... so was this in the middle of a teamfight or did you just sit there and let him land 3 skill-shots on everyone then fully channel his ult on your entire team?

None of you had any Knock-ups/displacement/silences/literally any form of disruption to stop Vel'Koz from standing perfectly still for his ult and then easily obliterate him because he went glass-cannon to achieve that "1.8k-3.6k damage?" None of you went sideways to escape his extremely slow turn-rate?

Sounds like he just had good positioning and you all just sat there and ate his abilities, that's on you.

WoonStruck1 votes

Vel hasn't had a slow turn-rate during his ult since the MYMU.

Stop spewing lies to make Vel'koz sound balanced.

skocc3 votes

I kinda agree, ever since they reworked assassins (which were my main role) i now play mages like Xerath, one shot people from half the map away. Assassins are useless now, no reason to pick them (except from some of them, who weren't reworked).

Eedat2 votes

You should try AP Kog mid. It's pretty nuts after a few items

Spoofghoul2 votes

well i don't even think its so much the games which are the problem

Its item 3116 it makes dodging the next skill shot very difficult and so on and so fort so if u get hit once your screwed really

It also makes it way to hard to get into their face due to massive range and them often already having higher movespeed then you with either or both of these item 3285 item 3100 and lately a lot of them picking up summoner 6 summoner 4 and then we now have this beauty item 3152 and this one item 3030

Range + mobility + Perma slows + hard cc

It's just slows, mobility and HP galore

The whole itemization is strictly there to screw over all melee champions trying to get to them and no penalty to damage output

Let's not forget item 3165 either it's pretty mandatory on every mage and it counters some of the best counterpicks to mages like vlad and mundo

Though AD itemization has the same problems too they give too much counters to their counter at the cost of nothing so itemization wise there isn't much you can do to deal with any of these champions

Which means unless you have a kit specifically designed to fuck over these mages or adc's you can't do much in game to deal with them anymore

There is simply too much safety in a lot of the offensive itemization as well as everything available to counter a counter build without sacrificing any damage or utility for it.

FighterA2362 votes

PLUS they have TONS of CC. Lux Annie Brand AurelionSol Kennen Ryze Veigar Zilean Zyra Velkoz etc. Why the heck are there champion that have huge range, cc and burst?? Riot fix your game!

Legacy Hydralpha3 votes

Every single one of those champs aside from Zyra have only one form of hard CC. Mages use their hard cc to land their skillshots or prevent assassins from chasing them, and it's either one or the other. Mages are very traditionally based off of projectiles anyways, which can be avoided or blocked most of the time anyways, giving them some reason to be able to have range and burst. At least it isn't marksman which right-click you and do just as much damage while being mobile.

FighterA2361 votes

Ye but you forget the fact that almost all these specific champions (except for Ryze maybe) have AOE CC. AOE. CC. And then they blow everyone up. Apart from that they also have rylais which gives them even more cc -_-

Hovering Hentai2 votes

1.8 k damage from Velkoz ult....

Do us all and yourself a favour by actually looking at Velkoz ult stats (which is only capable of deal that level of damage at level 16...) then look at the stats of that match and tell us what items he had and yes - even though you may have trouble believing it - what OTHER skills he hit that Corki with...

Joe Blade1 votes

around 1k true dmg from the ultimate, around 200-300 magic before passive proc, around 500-600 passive proc. That's what the stats showed.

Stars Shaper1 votes

Vel'Koz does true damage and his full combo brings death to any squishy.

Calabok1 votes

i agree, nerf assassins

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