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Gameplay update for Minonmaster Champions?

Derpinator··9 votes·1,835 views

Now that Azir has the ability to use his soldiers and have them target enemies regardless of being in his attack range, can we see the same sort of mechanic applied to things like Heimer Turrets, Malzahar's Voidlings, Elise Spiders, and Zyra's Plants? It's always incredibly frustrating to me to be just out of range to allow these minions to even receive attack commands, and just sit idly by enemy champions or passively autoing creeps instead of dealing damage to the target I want them to deal damage to. I feel like this element of the game, especially now that another new champion has removed the barrier for it, is unnecessary. To put it in perspective, almost all lanes with these champions usually rely on the small (or large) amount of damage these sources cause, and can make or break the laning phase based upon how they decide to attack enemies while out of your own "Command" range. Malzahar voidlings often don't even move to engage until you force them to with E, or force them to move with an attack command. This is especially frustrating when trying to position them properly to drop a 100-0 combo with his ult, and having the voidling need to walk all the way towards the enemy. Zyra's plants are also quite the bother as they'll occasionally be just as content attacking minions as champions. (I'm pretty sure it's based on proximity but because you can force the command with your attack I feel like it's just wasted potential to not be able to control them outside of your attack range). Elise spiderlings hardly do anything other than block skillshots in the current iteration, I rarely see them dealing any damage at all, and Heimer turrets, while more reliable (they switch upon taking damage like regular turrets) still won't allow for out of auto range targeting.

All in all, I'm complaining that if a champion can manipulate the AI of their minions while in attack range, they should also be able to manipulate it out of that range to an extent. I'm not asking for the ability to micro Elise's spiders 1200 units away from her, but I am asking that she and other champions should be able to actually use the minions they're given. If Riot's looking for true mastery of champions, this little perk for each of these champions should separate the good ones from the great ones.

-Derpinator.

15 Comments

dialMARK4acti0n3 votes

While it's true that they are not the best minion-mancing characters in any game out there, Azir is Riot's different take on the minion-mancing champion. Therefore, his mechanics are his own, and changing past minion-mancing champions to be more like him would totally ruin Azir's own identity and reason to exist.

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

Riot's different take on the minion-mancing champion

ugh nope

riot knew that minion mancers dont feel like they realy command their minions either the minions were so automatic that they didnt feel like they are aliwe (malza and heimer) or they were insanely insignificant (elise and yoric) or insanely hard to controll (lb and shaco)

riot checked what was wrong and came up with azirs way of controlling minions

azir is not the diferent take, he is riots trial of making the first good minion mancer champ

dont worry riot is all about updating stuff they make it seem like they release the new ones just to check what mechanics the old ones need to actualy work (yasuos wall made him a viable meele adc, braums shield made him an epic tank, azirs soldiers are actual minions, gnar is the first form switching champ that is actualy ballanced and cant grind one part of his kit )

Wingling3 votes

See, I don't see Azir as a minion-mancer at all, if you're using the word minion to describe Tibbers or voidlings or spiderlings or whatever. Minions to me are killable units that walk around, Azir's minions are better described as spell conduits, more similar to Zed's shadows and Orianna's ball. Yes, his kit is meant to make him feel like a commander of minions, and the minions technically auto-attack, but that doesn't mean they're comparable to tibbers or voidlings.

Or to put it another way, Azir's minions are just a neat way of extending his own attack range. Azir himself is doing the auto-attacking, just like Zed and Orianna are the ones casting spells. Minions in this context are units that fight and die by your side. It's like saying "Nothing is better than eternal happiness, a ham sandwich is better than nothing, therefore a ham sandwich is better than eternal happiness." Just because tibbers and a sand soldier can be described as minions doesn't mean they're the same thing.

SPChocobo1 votes

See, I don't see Azir as a minion-mancer at all. Minions to me are killable units that walk around, Azir's minions are better described as spell conduits, more similar to Zed's shadows and Orianna's ball. Yes, his kit is meant to make him feel like a commander of minions, and the minions technically auto-attack, but that doesn't mean they're comparable to tibbers or voidlings.

Or to put it another way, Azir's minions are just a neat way of extending his own attack range. Azir himself is doing the auto-attacking, just like Zed and Orianna are the ones casting spells. Minions in this context are units that fight and die by your side.

That's an interesting point. And the distinct lack of AI to govern Azir's summons makes it very much reliant upon Azir attacking THROUGH them, as opposed to them attacking on their own. Otherwise, they'd be borderline busted. Like Heim turrets that can move.

Derpinator1 votes

See, I don't see Azir as a minion-mancer at all, if you're using the word minion to describe Tibbers or voidlings or spiderlings or whatever. Minions to me are killable units that walk around, Azir's minions are better described as spell conduits, more similar to Zed's shadows and Orianna's ball. Yes, his kit is meant to make him feel like a commander of minions, and the minions technically auto-attack, but that doesn't mean they're comparable to tibbers or voidlings.

Or to put it another way, Azir's minions are just a neat way of extending his own attack range. Azir himself is doing the auto-attacking, just like Zed and Orianna are the ones casting spells. Minions in this context are units that fight and die by your side. It's like saying "Nothing is better than eternal happiness, a ham sandwich is better than nothing, therefore a ham sandwich is better than eternal happiness." Just because tibbers and a sand soldier can be described as minions doesn't mean they're the same thing.

I understand and respect that point of view, and I agree, in a sense, the soldiers are not minions. But this does not mean the coding applicable to their AI can't be integrated into traditional minions. I just want to be able to tell my minion that I want it to attack that target without actually having to be in that area. I don't mean full control, I mean a definite point-click auto-attack that will fade when losing sight. I would hope it would be targeted but not through the Auto-attack range circle. The auto attack range is simply too small to effectively micro, as it is FAR too dangerous to be in that range simply to move minions around or micro plants/turrets, ESPECIALLY when you consider the fact that the enemy laner should be able to hit you with almost any spell from the edge of your auto attack range.

Wingling2 votes

I'm not disagreeing that we should have better control for our minions, I'm just pointing out that Azir has literally nothing to do with the discussion. I even made another post earlier where I mostly agree with you (except about Elise) but the story of "Azir is what happens when Riot figures out how to actually minion-mance" is counter-productive. Like I said in my other post, we've had minion commanding since beta and it's been a conscious decision not to implement that on other champions. You might disagree with that decision, but it isn't one made in ignorance.

Then again, this post probably wouldn't have existed or gotten off the ground without Azir, so regardless I'm not really criticizing and the fact that the minions technically auto-attack is the main reason for the confusion, not stupidity or anything like that.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

Azir's minions are better described as spell conduits

yup but those are still soldiers they were made those "spell conduits" because this way they are actualy a part of azirs gameplay instead of a swarm walking around him
the thing with minions is that no champ using minions did ever realy use them as his own controllable unit (either minions were to dumb or you neded to controll 2 champs which was also hard) riot made it so that azirs "minions" are a part of his gameplay for that reason

Minions in this context are units that fight and die by your side

minions are additional unnits your champ can create
also the word that azir does the autoatacking is kinda off you right click in soldiers range and the soldier atacks meaning that you can also call it a command specified for that minion (the thing is realy well thought, you controll both azir and the minions with clicks )

Wingling3 votes

I like the idea, especially since I plan on learning AD Malzahar soon and his particular history of shaky AI is good evidence that they should do this, but saying that Azir broke the barrier is inaccurate. We've had minion commanding since Annie, and it's been a conscious decision by Riot to not implement that on other champions.

Also, to say that Elise's minions are just skillshot shields is plain wrong. They have always been an under-appreciated source of very significant damage, and I think that allowing commanding as you describe it would be a bad idea. They're meant to fight with her, not instead of her. I think your idea should be looked at in a general sense, though, maybe on a champion-to-champion basis, because I think that it makes perfect sense on Malzahar, and with certain champions the AI causes the same problems that RNG has historically.

SPChocobo2 votes

From what I'm reading, you want an AI for all minions that Tibbers has. The issue I see for this is that for each champion, they already have certain features that initiate them to attack certain mobs or enemies. Using Malzahar as my point of reference: yes, you have to drop your E on an enemy to make the voidling start aggro-ing to them, but knowing this, that makes it a part of him mechanics. The way I look at it, I'm grateful there is a way to manipulate them at all. Imagine if you had zero control over what they decide to attack. It would be extremely frustrating.

Each champion with minions has its own mannerisms to have their minions interact, with enemies or in general. Having every minion be able to be controlled fully by their respective champion would, in my opinion, break minions. You'd be able to harass with Malz with literally zero risk. Especially since the voidlings can move. How that would work laning would be you drop a few spells, then you CS safely while the voidling pokes them. Spam a few spell, rinse and repeat. If they step up, you can start to harass them with your spell. Silence with a Q, full combo til dead. Plus, with just CS-ing, you can farm without pushing out as easily. Then, when you kill them, drop your E on the minions, and spam to push hard how most players do anyways. Instead of the voidling helping to accelerate the push, he'd be harassing, slowing down how hard Malz is usually pushing. The point is, he has other spells beyond just the minions. The only reason that Azir's minions have this feature (extending his attack range) is that those minions are the ENTIRETY of his skill kit. Without them, he's literally nothing.

On an interesting side-thought, I think this could herald some interesting champions in the future, with kits being focused around minions. maybe having some sort of feature like Nidalee where in one mode you have normal skills, then in another you can have and control minions, or something like that. Hmmm....

Derpinator1 votes

From what I'm reading, you want an AI for all minions that Tibbers has. The issue I see for this is that for each champion, they already have certain features that initiate them to attack certain mobs or enemies. Using Malzahar as my point of reference: yes, you have to drop your E on an enemy to make the voidling start aggro-ing to them, but knowing this, that makes it a part of him mechanics. The way I look at it, I'm grateful there is a way to manipulate them at all. Imagine if you had zero control over what they decide to attack. It would be extremely frustrating.

I don't want the control that tibbers has, I want control for those moments when I'm JUST outside of the auto-attack limit. (I want an attack-move command, forcing them in the direction of the targeted enemy, not a point and click move here button.) Malzahar's voidling especially falls prey to this lack of control, where if the enemy begins a retreat It will stand there doing nothing or occasionally even switching targets to make it run behind you. This is especially noticeable while attempting to chase down an enemy, having the DoT on E tick out, and then slowly playing a game of follow the leader as you float just out of targeting range of your opponent. The moment the voidling switches off is the moment you lose significant damage in a trade to come (Assuming we're talking about AP malz, this is still relevant as the voidling deals approximately 200+ damage through the duration of Malz's ult, and assuming we're talking about AD malz, this is almost the entirety of his damage potential going to waste) and because of this interaction makes playing him to his damage potential almost impossible. Whenever a player does not have control over the situation, not because of any opponent's skill or simply not being good enough, but because of how a certain mechanic makes the player unable to actually use a core part of a champion's kit, spells for toxic gameplay. One of riot's main ideas is that the player should be fighting other players, not the game, and this lack of a mechanic is doing just that. You can argue that the limitation is intentional, but as I just stated this flies in the face of riot's own goals with regards to how their game works. On top of this argument, you can argue that Malzahar in particular, or Zyra, have only plants or voidlings by the same logic. You're ignoring the bigger picture, Azir also has mobility: the ability to reposition himself or dive into fights. Of the champions I've listed here, only one of them has this ability. Azir is able to reposition while also being able to command his minions, why can the same tradeoff not occur between Zyra's lack of mobility? In fact, this doesn't even bring into question Azir's kit at all, or his identity. He controls his soldiers in the same sense that Zyra controls her plants, Heimer controls his turrets, Malz controls his voidlings Ect. The fact these other champions don't have this kind of mechanic is not excused by one champ having exclusivity over it.

EDIT: You stated that not being able to control what the minions attack would be frustrating. It's pretty much this at all times, especially with Malzahar. He has almost no control over what the voidling will attack. Sure, it'll follow your attack-commands, and your E, but the E is about 3/4'ths done ticking before the voidling even REACHES the target. It becomes an incredibly annoying issue when combined with the fact that after the E's timeout the minion returns to neutral, almost always simply coming to a standstill in the middle of the lane until you issue another attack command. It is indeed incredibly frustrating to be unable to control the minions that are so central to his kit.

SPChocobo1 votes

Azir is able to reposition while also being able to command his minions, why can the same tradeoff not occur between Zyra's lack of mobility? In fact, this doesn't even bring into question Azir's kit at all, or his identity. He controls his soldiers in the same sense that Zyra controls her plants, Heimer controls his turrets, Malz controls his voidlings Ect. The fact these other champions don't have this kind of mechanic is not excused by one champ having exclusivity over it.

I do agree that Zyra's kit is comparable to Azir's in focus to minions, but she's different. While she may have low mobility, she has her own strengths. If every champ was the same, it'd get boring (at least for me). I'm not exactly what it is that governs what the plants attack, though, so you may need to enlighten me on her.

Sure, it'll follow your attack-commands, and your E, but the E is about 3/4'ths done ticking before the voidling even REACHES the target. It becomes an incredibly annoying issue when combined with the fact that after the E's timeout the minion returns to neutral, almost always simply coming to a standstill in the middle of the lane until you issue another attack command. It is indeed incredibly frustrating to be unable to control the minions that are so central to his kit.

The difference between Malzahar and Azir is that Malz has other skills. The voidling is one piece of the puzzle, where with Azir, it's the whole puzzle itself. I get what you're saying, but I don't know if I agree that the need to work with his mechanics is necessarily fighting the game itself. In an ideal situation, during laning, I'd say try to not nuke until the voidling is close by them to begin with, limiting time wasted by him walking. Outside laning, if you're walking or in a bush, any voidlings out are close-ish by anyways. I know, it's a stretch, but trying to maximize damage despite this AI is what it's all about.

Derpinator1 votes

Azir is able to reposition while also being able to command his minions, why can the same tradeoff not occur between Zyra's lack of mobility? In fact, this doesn't even bring into question Azir's kit at all, or his identity. He controls his soldiers in the same sense that Zyra controls her plants, Heimer controls his turrets, Malz controls his voidlings Ect. The fact these other champions don't have this kind of mechanic is not excused by one champ having exclusivity over it.

I do agree that Zyra's kit is comparable to Azir's in focus to minions, but she's different. While she may have low mobility, she has her own strengths. If every champ was the same, it'd get boring (at least for me). I'm not exactly what it is that governs what the plants attack, though, so you may need to enlighten me on her.

Sure, it'll follow your attack-commands, and your E, but the E is about 3/4'ths done ticking before the voidling even REACHES the target. It becomes an incredibly annoying issue when combined with the fact that after the E's timeout the minion returns to neutral, almost always simply coming to a standstill in the middle of the lane until you issue another attack command. It is indeed incredibly frustrating to be unable to control the minions that are so central to his kit.

The difference between Malzahar and Azir is that Malz has other skills. The voidling is one piece of the puzzle, where with Azir, it's the whole puzzle itself. I get what you're saying, but I don't know if I agree that the need to work with his mechanics is necessarily fighting the game itself. In an ideal situation, during laning, I'd say try to not nuke until the voidling is close by them to begin with, limiting time wasted by him walking. Outside laning, if you're walking or in a bush, any voidlings out are close-ish by anyways. I know, it's a stretch, but trying to maximize damage despite this AI is what it's all about.

But it shouldn't be restricted in such a way. The old excuse was that the coding couldn't allow it, and now that the code is available, it's hard to say that it shouldn't be applied to champions who also need this type of targeting. I understand the limitation, but without min-maxing like this, Malzahar simply falls short of his boundaries. There's a reason he's not picked, it's because his damage is too weak to compare to other non-mobile mages, and his ult locks him in place just as long as it locks his opponent. He NEEDS the damage to be able to compare to other champions, especially at higher rungs in elo. It's simply a mechanic that is possible to apply to these champions that has no real reason to not be applied to these champions.

SPChocobo1 votes

But it shouldn't be restricted in such a way. The old excuse was that the coding couldn't allow it, and now that the code is available, it's hard to say that it shouldn't be applied to champions who also need this type of targeting. I understand the limitation, but without min-maxing like this, Malzahar simply falls short of his boundaries. There's a reason he's not picked, it's because his damage is too weak to compare to other non-mobile mages, and his ult locks him in place just as long as it locks his opponent. He NEEDS the damage to be able to compare to other champions, especially at higher rungs in elo. It's simply a mechanic that is possible to apply to these champions that has no real reason to not be applied to these champions.

I agree that it'd make him stronger, but I feel like it'd change him a bit too much. It also wouldn't do a thing about his mobility. Maybe with a rework? But not every champ gets an escape. It's just part of how he works. As for his ult locking you down just like the enemy, that's just how channels work. Same with Warwick, same with Vel'koz. You plant your ass there, whether you like it or not.

Derpinator1 votes

But it shouldn't be restricted in such a way. The old excuse was that the coding couldn't allow it, and now that the code is available, it's hard to say that it shouldn't be applied to champions who also need this type of targeting. I understand the limitation, but without min-maxing like this, Malzahar simply falls short of his boundaries. There's a reason he's not picked, it's because his damage is too weak to compare to other non-mobile mages, and his ult locks him in place just as long as it locks his opponent. He NEEDS the damage to be able to compare to other champions, especially at higher rungs in elo. It's simply a mechanic that is possible to apply to these champions that has no real reason to not be applied to these champions.

I agree that it'd make him stronger, but I feel like it'd change him a bit too much. It also wouldn't do a thing about his mobility. Maybe with a rework? But not every champ gets an escape. It's just part of how he works. As for his ult locking you down just like the enemy, that's just how channels work. Same with Warwick, same with Vel'koz. You plant your ass there, whether you like it or not.

But of course, Warwick gets his on-hit effects and Vel'koz gets his true damage procs. The complex design of Malzahar forces him to use all of his tools effectively to create the same potential, especially because his kit has relatively short range compared to most ap mids. He doesn't need mobility, he just needs the ability to outdamage his laner, something that can be done almost exclusively with proper voidling control. The issue is: You can't actually properly control the voidling to the extent that would be required to create any kind of consistent lane presence as they simply either sit and do nothing while you attempt to attack the enemies while just out of targetability range. It creates a situation where you have to capitalize on both the position of the enemy laner and the position your voidling. The only way to get a truly strong combo off is HOPING your minion is close enough to get 2-3 hits in during your spells. This kind of duality is hard to work with, it's literally impossible to do consistently. It relies on your opponents overextending at a low enough HP to get combo'd or simply dotted down, in addition to having the correct voidling positioning (which as of right now is almost uncontrollable) to allow for enough of that damage to go through. I'm speaking almost entirely about the early laning phase where even 100 damage can be the difference between life and death. It's like rolling the dice every laning phase, occasionally the stars will align and you'll be able to get a kill in lane. But otherwise Malzahar is limited to hoping the enemy underestimates your DoT and allows it to finish them off.

SPChocobo1 votes

The complex design of Malzahar forces him to use all of his tools effectively to create the same potential, especially because his kit has relatively short range compared to most ap mids. He doesn't need mobility, he just needs the ability to outdamage his laner, something that can be done almost exclusively with proper voidling control.

Xerath comes to mind from this. :P

I think I had forgotten this while discussing before...AD Malz... voidling dmg is based off his ad, isn't it? So I can definitely see where when going ad that it would be a bigger factor to make sure you get more voidling hits in, since that's a big chunk of his damage in total.

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