Guinsoos is a broken item

Rejecks·Mar 18, 2019·55 votes·16,725 views

I understand the concept of the item Guinsoos rageblade and I like the idea behind it...but as the game goes by more and more champions are finding a use for this item that makes their kits undeniably unbalanced because of the amount of champions in the game that can dish out a considerable amount of true damage, not only from their kits but now from a rune that anyone has the option of taking (conqueror). Riot has ignored this fact for some reason or to my knowledge neglected to do anything about it because they keep on adding true damage to the game. A Vayne has passive true damage that deals a considerable amount as it is, now when she builds guinsoos rageblade, her W ability is doubled.. dealing true damage more consistently and the champion is arguable very strong because of this and it is safe to say that Vayne's kit is very unbalanced with this item. There are complaints about Jax's power 1-2 items in, one of these being guinsoos rageblade. Yet again another champion that takes conqueror and builds into rageblade and snowballs beyond control. This situation needs to be addressed please because it is making the game unbalanced and very difficult to enjoy.

56 Comments

Frosted TipsMar 18, 201956 votes

Guinsoo's is not broken. Phantom Hits is what breaks this game. It broke Sated Devourer and now it broke Guinsoo's. Phantom Hits need to go and pre Tiamat effect Guinsoo's needs to comeback.

SaiannaMar 18, 20197 votes

I think that's what OP meant, without naming the real culprit :P

BarcidMar 18, 201920 votes

Oh good, somebody pin-pointed it already without me having to.

To any laymen, phantom hits causes on-hit effects to proc twice. This doesn't mean the autos themselves get doubled - the on-hits behind them do, so Vayne's W for example. The thing about this is that these effects are locked and often balanced behind three hits for a reason - their effects are often very strong and can easily decide a fight or trade if you can proc them. The consequence of lessening the amount of shots to proc them is, along with just seeing the effect more often, you get shit like this:

Say you needed to proc an effect twice in a fight to really win it. Normally you'd have to take six shots to proc it twice - but with Guinsoo's, you'd proc it three times instead in that amount of time, but you'd also get the effects off twice far sooner, which means that you could end up killing far faster than normal - it's like if attack speed is bonus CDR for your attacks, but you also get rewarded with additional CDR on top of that for maintaining max stacks. This translates to your opponent getting far less time to "outplay" you in (IE burst you down before you just auto them to death) and is the leading cause of sustained-fire champions like Vayne or Yi suddenly just bursting down every single thing in the game in a matter of a second each.

In short: Fuck this effect.

TonyTonyMordecaiMar 19, 20193 votes

I feel like I was the only one that liked the tiamat effect on old guinsoos

FSRERMar 19, 20192 votes

And here we see 2 downvotes. Damn the vayne mains must be getting pissed. So, indeed, this is what should happen BUT the pre tiamat effect should be MELEE ONLY. That is very important because if they rework it and add the pre tiamat effect, vayne still gona abuse the shit out of it.

Ginger976Mar 19, 20191 votes

What about making Phatom hits melee only?

koshkyraMar 18, 201913 votes

Guinsoos is a good idea with poor execution.

MarshbouyMar 18, 201911 votes

guinsoos is good on paper but bad in execution because of how champion kits work.

Derp PrincessMar 18, 201913 votes

It's unbalanced, unfair, and braindead.

SeenanMar 18, 20198 votes

Everything about the item is fine, but Phantom Blade.

ShahamutMar 19, 20192 votes

This:

An item that supports attacks speed/on hit builds is fine. But phantom hit is just a terrible idea because of how it interacts with champion abilities (Yi, Jax and Vayne primarily, and more recently Neeko).

Rageblade should, in my opinion, go back to being just an attack speed hybrid item. On hit builds are technically supported by ANY attack speed item. No need for the phantom hit.

CronofugeMar 18, 20197 votes

Phantom hit, while really cool, just creates huge imbalances in kits and has champions nerfed so that they depend on it, but suck without it. Vayne doesn't really follow that rule since she can just default back to crit but I agree that the passive has overstayed it's welcome.

XxKillerBeexXMar 18, 20196 votes

preach jax still can be taken out but vayne goes invis does our whole hp bar in 3 autos not fun

Flawless FetusMar 19, 20191 votes

This. Vaynes biggest problem isn't rage blade, it's her latest q buff.

Clone Is FriendMar 19, 20191 votes

i think both are a problem but i honestly thing either one should be removed

Flawless FetusMar 19, 20191 votes

Agreed. The "counter play" to vayne, like most adcs, is killl them first. It's kind of hard to do when she can invis near every aa.

Yara0Mar 19, 20191 votes

I pick Lulu or Morgana against vayne specifically to counter that.

Mr Bob BobersonMar 18, 20195 votes

It's kinda like Spear of Shoijin, it's a niche item that makes a select few characters rather overpowered

RebonackMar 19, 20195 votes

Phantom Hit makes it difficult to balance OnHit focused champions and makes adding new OnHit effects to the game incredibly hazardous.

For the health of the game it should be replaced with something else. I would favor OnHit damage that scales off AP (physical OnHit) and bonus AD (magic OnHit). That allows it to keep its identity as the hybrid equivalent of Infinity Edge or Deathcap.

Sleep On StreamMar 18, 20193 votes

remove it

5050BSMar 19, 20193 votes

All of the "Ghost hit" items of the past were too. Riot does not understand balance.

Ulquiorra0123Mar 19, 20193 votes

Have we considered that maybe conqueror shouldn't do true damage and heal...

0HawkeMar 18, 20192 votes

They should redo all the items again...

SucctionMar 19, 20192 votes

I don't think it's an issue on Jax, just because he doesn't really have the space or budget for it. He tends to want other items more, sooner, and so doesn't ever end up grabbing rageblade.

I do agree that it's a big issue on Yi and Vayne, though. Yi thankfully isn't overpowered with it, but he's definitely very unhealthy and breaks a lot of rules in the game, like him being able to fight literally any non-Jax bruiser no matter how fed they are after he hits 2 items.

Vayne does that too, though, and she's definitely the biggest offender. Even without rageblade she'd still be the most undeniably broken ADC, but with it she's fucking bonkers. It needs to be addressed, maybe nerfed or potentially even melee only with something being worked out for Kog'Maw, who would be gutted otherwise. While we're at it I'm certain Vayne's Q cd buff could be reverted without issue. She was balanced before it came in, not sure why she was buffed in the first place.

Now that I think about it, didn't she just get a really expensive skin?

...Oh.

Anivia HentaiMar 19, 20192 votes

Literally just remove it, the game doenst need it AT ALL

DoombotMar 20, 20192 votes

item 3124 item 3161 MasterYi Jax XinZhao

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

AirKingNeoMar 18, 20191 votes

How is the item broken if only 1 single champion is broken using it?

Frosted TipsMar 18, 20198 votes

Every other champion that abused that broken passive has already been nerfed. Kaisa Jax Kayle KogMaw Neeko MasterYi Varus Tryndamere

Iota ThetaMar 18, 20194 votes

{quoted}

How is the item broken if only 1 single champion is broken using it?

Honestly, the item as it was wasn’t a problem, and the stacking %pen passive is interesting. The only part of the item that’s an issue and can be considered broken is the phantom hit passive. Most on-hits were balanced around one effect per hit, not being doubled up. It was an issue with Devourer/Sated Devourer as well.

In the case of Vayne, and even Yi, it amplifies their damage more so than other champs because of the on-hit effects in their kits. Kog’s on-hit effects were also an issue with the passive, I think? Says a lot when Yi and Vayne are picking up the item and they don’t really care about the AP or %pen.

There’s two possible solutions I see: make champ kits more on-attack as opposed to on-hit, leaving The passive aboe to affect item on-hit effects, or remove Phantom Hit and retune that power back into other hybrid DPS power on the item.

Edit: I vote the second option.

AirKingNeoMar 19, 20191 votes

Except Sated Devourer wasn't an issue. It was the combination of Rageblade and Sated Devourer, which were both multiplicative onhit effects. Now league only has 1 multiplicative onhit item, so we don't see any issues.

Except with Vayne.

An idea I would like to see is Phantom hit every 3 hits, AS cap raised to 3.0, and buffs to stats on Rageblade (+10% AS, +5 AD, +10 AP, +1-2% AS on stack, +2 hybrid pen, +200-300 gold cost).

Frosted TipsMar 19, 20194 votes

Except Sated Devourer wasn't an issue. It was the combination of Rageblade and Sated Devourer, which were both multiplicative onhit effects. Now league only has 1 multiplicative onhit item, so we don't see any issues.

Sated was a problem and that is why it was removed.

Rageblade used to not have the multiplicative on-hit passive. It was added when they removed Sated.

Iota ThetaMar 19, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Except Sated Devourer wasn't an issue. It was the combination of Rageblade and Sated Devourer, which were both multiplicative onhit effects. Now league only has 1 multiplicative onhit item, so we don't see any issues.

How was Guinsoo a multiplicative on hit effect? The Attack speed ramp? That’s a different situation and nowhere near the same effect. Champs that bought Sated Devourer didn’t even always buy Guinsoo’s. Vayne definitely didn’t. Yi didn’t. Don’t think Shyvana did. Kog only built Guinsoo’s.

It’s old passive was the tiamat style attack, which didn’t apply on hits outside the original target. Prior to Guinsoo’s Rage acquiring the Phantom Hit, it was just a straight hybrid DPS item. AD, AP, AS, and then a wave a la old Kayle E or Tiamat.

Perhaps you don’t see any issues with Phantom Hit, but you appear to be the only one, at least that I’ve seen in these discussions. The general consensus is that Phantom Hit is a busted mechanic. Why? Because of it’s existence, on-hits will have to be balanced around it. This will cause them to either be normal with Phantom Hit and useless without it, or normal without it and absolute insanity with it. No, there’s nothing healthy about Phantom Hit. Never was.

Except with Vayne.

Vayne is merely the current, top abuser. Ever since it’s introduction, Phantom Hit has been hated and broke champs. Kog was a problem with it, Yi was/is a problem with it, Vayne is a problem with it, Shyvana and Xin were problems with it when it was on Sated Devourer. BotRK can become a problem with it, dealing an extra 8% current health physical damage every other auto for 24% across 2 autos.

An idea I would like to see is Phantom hit every 3 hits, AS cap raised to 3.0, and buffs to stats on Rageblade (+10% AS, +5 AD, +10 AP, +1-2% AS on stack, +2 hybrid pen, +200-300 gold cost).

So cost nerf, phantom hit slight nerf, then buffs all across it? I’m sorry, but Phantom Hit soaks up too much power from it. If it’s gone, then it can get some better stats. But so long as it has that passive, it should not be buffed at all.

Edit: I had BotRK’s passive damage wrong. My bad.

AirKingNeoMar 19, 20191 votes

How was Guinsoo a multiplicative on hit effect?

It was an onhit that scaled with AD and AP, which Rageblade itself gave a lot of.

Vayne is merely the current, top abuser. Ever since it’s introduction, Phantom Hit has been hated and broke champs. Kog was a problem with it, Yi was/is a problem with it, Vayne is a problem with it, Shyvana and Xin were problems with it when it was on Sated Devourer. BotRK can become a problem with it, dealing an extra 8% max health physical damage every other auto for 24% across 2 autos.

Kog was only broken when the numbers on his W was fudgingly high.

Yi has never been a problem with it. He's never been meta.

Shyvana and Xin Zhao weren't problems with Sated Devourer because they weren't meta, except Shyvana because she had high clear speed (which isn't Sated Devourer).

That's a misrepresentation of how BoRK works. BoRK's onhit damage lessens every hit.

So cost nerf, phantom hit slight nerf, then buffs all across it? I’m sorry, but Phantom Hit soaks up too much power from it. If it’s gone, then it can get some better stats. But so long as it has that passive, it should not be buffed at all.

You realize every third hit for Phantom Hit is a huge nerf since it's reduces it from a 50% onhit damage increase to a 33% onhit damage increase, which is a massive loss of 17% damage for onhit effects.

They aren't complete buffs across the board (gold cost is a lot) and the numbers can always be tuned.

Attack speed shouldn't be capped because no other stat in the game is, except CDR because abilities have CC attached.

Iota ThetaMar 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

It was an onhit that scaled with AD and AP, which Rageblade itself gave a lot of.

But that’s not multiplicative on hits in the same sense. Phantom Hit on old Sated and current Rageblade gives a second proc of that. That passive wasn’t an issue, only Phantom Hit providing double procs.

Kog was only broken when the numbers on his W was fudgingly high.

This is true. However he relies on Rageblade for the stats as well as the Phantom Hit now.

Yi has never been a problem with it. He's never been meta.

That’s a poor counter point. Something can be a problem and not be meta. Yo was never meta because high elo shuts him down too easily since they know how to coordinate, watch vision, and CC properly, as well as counter jungling, which was a factor in beating Sated junglers. However, his power did increase drastically and has stayed there because Phantom Hit stuck around, allowing his passive to stack, what, what every 2-3 hits instead of 4?

Shyvana and Xin Zhao weren't problems with Sated Devourer because they weren't meta, except Shyvana because she had high clear speed (which isn't Sated Devourer).

Again the meta comment. Not meta, so not a problem. Brilliant. Forgetting that Xin Zhao, Shyvana, Yi, and the other Sated Junglers just powerfarmed and then started steamrolling once the enchant got the phantom hit status. Xin Zhao also had his heal hit because of Phantom Hit, when previously it wasn’t an issue.

Oh, almost forgot about Udyr. He loved Phantom Hit as well, at least on Sated Devourer.

That's a misrepresentation of how BoRK works. BoRK's onhit damage lessens every hit.

You are correct. It was late and I misread the passive. I did correct the post.

You realize every third hit for Phantom Hit is a huge nerf since it's reduces it from a 50% onhit damage increase to a 33% onhit damage increase, which is a massive loss of 17% damage for onhit effects.

It’s still a problem though. You can shift it all you want, but given the nature of champ kits and Phantom Hit, it can’t be balanced properly. On-hit champions have a thing of falling in and out of meta and power very easily, often based on the status of their items. So long as Phantom Hit exists, every on-hit needs to be tuned with it in mind, which then weakens the items for non-Rageblade users.

That’s merely the item balance issue. There is also the main point that people keep bringing up: on-hit’s in champion kits. The strongest champs among those that use Rageblade are those who’s own abilities have on-hits, balanced around one stack/proc per auto.

They aren't complete buffs across the board (gold cost is a lot) and the numbers can always be tuned.

I did say beyond Phantom Hit and gold cost they were buffs. That gold cost is..iffy. I believe that’s..a kills worth or another 15 CS? Is that the right numbers.

Attack speed shouldn't be capped because no other stat in the game is, except CDR because abilities have CC attached.

This is..an odd point. I do see where you’re coming from though. However, all the other stats have soft caps and diminishing returns..except AD and AP I believe. It is true no other stat beyond CDR is hard capped, but CDR and AS both act similarly. CDR means you can get your spells out more often, increasing spell damage over time, while AS does the same for autoattacks.

However, unlike CDR, not many champs can hit that cap. An ulting Yi and a max stack Kayle are the two biggest culprits, and Lethal Tempo helps Kayle break it. The cap is just in a place that most attack speed champs can’t hit it.

AirKingNeoMar 20, 20191 votes

This is true. However he relies on Rageblade for the stats as well as the Phantom Hit now.

Ok? ADCs rely on IE for damage. Your point?

That’s a poor counter point. Something can be a problem and not be meta.

No. You wouldn't be a problem if you're never meta because that means you're easily beatable.

Again the meta comment. Not meta, so not a problem. Brilliant. Forgetting that Xin Zhao, Shyvana, Yi, and the other Sated Junglers just powerfarmed and then started steamrolling once the enchant got the phantom hit status.

In low elo...

It’s still a problem though. You can shift it all you want, but given the nature of champ kits and Phantom Hit, it can’t be balanced properly.

That's not an argument. You ignored the concept that it is infact a nerf.

An ulting Yi and a max stack Kayle are the two biggest culprits, and Lethal Tempo helps Kayle break it.

Kayle doesn't take LT anymore due to her change in her E ability.

Iota ThetaMar 20, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Ok? ADCs rely on IE for damage. Your point?

And people have had issues with IE. It went through two large shifts from crt amp, to crit conversion to true damage, back to crit amp but lower value amp. It was an issue with the first because it became more burst per second, it was seen as an issue with the next iteration. It’s still a bit bursty, but at least it’s more reasonable now.

Keystone items are tricky.

No. You wouldn't be a problem if you're never meta because that means you're easily beatable.

In low elo...

Here is the crux. I disagree greatly with that. Why? Because being a problem, being a broken aspect, goes beyond being meta or not. Yi, Shyvana, Sated were indeed huge problems for lower elos. Garen is also a problem. Yorick was a problem before his ult changes. Illaoi is a bit of a problem right now.

Why? Because for all of these, they are incredibly strong in low elo, but weak to useless in higher elo. This here is a problem. Understand, I am an advocate for balancing around the best players. When something is designed in a way that it’s strength is eventually only in crushing low ranks, that’s a problem.

This adds a level of problem-ness to Phantom Hit. It’s incredibly strong the lower it goes, while higher elo it’s mainly Vayne that gets use out of it. It forces on-hits to be balanced around itself or be too strong. It has created more issues than it has solved.

That's not an argument. You ignored the concept that it is infact a nerf.

It’s a shift. You did propose a nerf, yes, but it came with buffs. That’s why I said it was a shift. You took some power out of Phantom Hit and put it elsewhere, but Phantom Hit still remained and would continue it’s trend. It’s not a good mechanic.

Kayle doesn't take LT anymore due to her change in her E ability.

You mean..the keystone that she can still make use of because she needs Attack Speed and runs almost 1/4 of the time she’s played in Plat+, 18% of the time in Diamond+? Currently tied with Fleet Footwork for second most picked? Looks like she’s still taking it and doing well.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Kayle/

FlitcheeMar 19, 20191 votes

It's actually incredible how much you have no idea what you're talking about. Phantom hit is not a good mechanic to have. It doesn't mesh well with the balance of this game. It creates balance issues on a multitude of champions. Not just Vayne. Look at Tahm for example. Build full tank and rage blade, and that guy is just cancer. The devs just keep adding and adding damage, and "interesting" things/abilities/runes into the game, and they never balance it because they keep thinking to make new stuff rather than slow down and fix the disaster they created. Everyone memed on Morello for nerfing everything all the time, but he understood for the most part what was healthy for the game and what wasn't. This rune system, certain item passives (Duskblade, Rageblade, old stormrazor just to name a few) certain champions they've made the past like 3 years. The rune system is probably the biggest culprit. It just adds so much god damn free damage on EVERYTHING like it probably increases the damage output of champions by 30% or more with all the extra free damage added.

AirKingNeoMar 20, 20191 votes

Look at Tahm for example. Build full tank and rage blade, and that guy is just cancer.

No, he doesn't. There is no evidence supporting this.

and you have no argument now.

FlitcheeMar 22, 20191 votes

You ever seen that build? Perma stun and can eat you twice in the same fight, it's like slowly and painfully dying a death you can't escape.

Neptunia xoxoMar 18, 20191 votes

Been saying it for idk how many years... Delete the item if you have to try and change it every season and still fuck it up. Most simple thing ever and they refuse to do it.

Exin0Mar 19, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Neptunia xoxo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EF5KmOyM,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2019-03-18T23:50:16.172+0000)

Been saying it for idk how many years... Delete the item if you have to try and change it every season and still fuck it up. Most simple thing ever and they refuse to do it.

Its not problem in china so we get stucked with it.

Neptunia xoxoMar 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Its not problem in china so we get stucked with it.

For sure Kappa

HAHAHAHAHAHAaaHaMar 19, 20191 votes

it's a STUPID item who should get removed

KoggyStyleMar 19, 20191 votes

Gnars prolly the only %hp dmg champ thats semi balenced due to rage, coming out of mega tho.....

UrFieryDoomMar 19, 20191 votes

Riot this is proof they will always complain... Now to your post! Look, there are champions that need guinsoos(Yi, Vayne). They aint removing dusklblade because you don't like it.

Mokuto BunshiMar 19, 20191 votes

Also, lets not forget Aatrox was changed to Bbtrox once he was making use of this item because a 'life stealing auto attacker is too hard to balance'.

Devilangel6161Mar 19, 20191 votes

Rageblade is not a freaking problem, especially in its % pen state. Vayne is coming to prevelence because of it, but you still see ezreal, Cait, Ashe and jinx. Jax is coming back to prevelence because of it, but you still see riven yasuo, renekton and others.

It's not skewing the meta other than it gives picking a tank more of a risk. Rageblade is why we are not in a top jungle tank only meta. If it was truly broken every champ that can even slightly abuse it would be running it every game and we wouldn't see anyone that couldn't in those roles.

Stop moaning about everything for crying out loud

CooliusTooliusMar 19, 20191 votes

I stan

KadexeMar 19, 20191 votes

Phantom hit makes you proc on-hit effects twice every other attack. It doesn't "double" Vayne's Silver Bolts, it procs it 50% faster. And only after she has Rageblade stacked. It's not broken.

Also, I rarely see Jax build Rageblade. There are better items for him.

BrutalisticaMar 19, 20191 votes

I'm guilty of building this on LuLu cause it's so good [sg-lulu]