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Heal reduce item for AD champions

TheScarface90··4 votes·6,697 views

I think that ad champions need to have heal reducion item liek ap champions. I understand why you remove before item but you need to back some. Now is imbalanced. Will be great to have passive reduce heal when target below 60% in hit or every hit but only when you hit him. Now champions like mundo, swain, volibear and more.. are too op. Think for this

27 Comments

Cale0172 votes

Chances are that the ones doing enough damage to drop you to that point are the ones that also probably aren't going to let you walk away anyways. ADCs, melee assassins, or duelists don't care if they reduce your ability to heal when they only need a few more auto attacks or another spell cast to finish you off anyways. Tanks shouldn't be main sources of damage, so adding in the ability to apply a Grievous Wounds style passive is a bit senseless as their damage is only meant to be supplementary, to add up over time, not to directly lead to someone's death unless you LET them just sit there and tear into you.

Lookin' at you, Devourer Volibear.

Cale0171 votes

{quoted}

Chances are that the ones doing enough damage to drop you to that point are the ones that also probably aren't going to let you walk away anyways. ADCs, melee assassins, or duelists don't care if they reduce your ability to heal when they only need a few more auto attacks or another spell cast to finish you off anyways. Tanks shouldn't be main sources of damage, so adding in the ability to apply a Grievous Wounds style passive is a bit senseless as their damage is only meant to be supplementary, to add up over time, not to directly lead to someone's death unless you LET them just sit there and tear into you.

Lookin' at you, Devourer Volibear.

Not to mention that reducing a champion's ability to heal would also mark death for most melee champions who depend on lifesteal to get them through fights. It'd pretty much destroy Irelia and Aatrox, for instance, and make Zac even LESS viable by making him unable to get the full benefit from picking up the health blobs he's dropping from ability casts. He'd end up paying more health than he'd be getting back from the blobs, and that's not how they're designed to function.

I can see why you might be frustrated with high sustain champions who have strong self healing passives, or champions who can get through a fight through self sustaining abilities like Xin Xiao or Warwick that synergize well with a miniscule amount of life steal, but that's how they're designed to play. It's up to you as a player to know whether or not it's safe to engage on a heavy sustain champion. If you make the wrong call, you give them a kill. If you make the right call, you walk away with one. But taking away a melee champ's ability to heal, when in all honesty unless someone is SEVERELY fed life steal isn't that significant, and most healing passives occur after death and don't give a whole lot or are only healing for much smaller amounts over time (Aatrox, Xin Xiao, Warwick). And as much as I hate to say it because I hate him as a champion, but even Yi is an example of why melee champs require full healing benefit at all points. If a Yi loses the ability to heal up during his meditate, he loses the ability to bait enemies into focusing on him and then sustaining through at the last moment while his allies mop up the fight. Cut his healing almost in half and all the extra armor and MR doesn't matter because he's still getting shredded to bits.

Right now, if you're playing a damaging sort of a fighter you're either going to be taking ignite if you're in lane, or smite if you aren't, as your offensive summoner spell. If it's the former, you already have a method to reduce healing. If it's the latter, your main focus shouldn't be fighting against people who are at full health in the first place unless you're ahead enough to be able to take them either way, so you shouldn't be worrying about inhibiting their healing.

There are a multitude of champions who rely on either dealing enough damage to make self healing effects useless, or on giving themselves enough sustain to survive skirmishes, that taking that away from them would be a bit too much. Heavy burst champions will just become stronger and stronger while offtanks lose the ability to sustain themselves, and supports find themselves unable to heal their teammates as effectively as they should be, especially with someone like Soraka, who's heal increases in power based on the % missing health of her allies. She should be rewarded for healing lower health players, not for trying to heal them before they drop lower than 60%.

You have ignite, and you have plenty of champion effects that can inhibit healing. You can work together with teammates to eat through people who would otherwise out-tank or out-sustain the damage you can put out. Most high sustain champions make for potent duelists, so if you're going 1 on 1 against one and you lose because they were able to last longer via sustain than you were, it's not because they need to be balanced. It's because you need to take a step back and think about what really led to your death, and it wasn't their sustain. It was your cockiness.

Nubeel1 votes

You also have Katarina, Fizz, Miss Fortune, Varus and Tristana who can apply Grievous Wounds with their abilities.

I think they're fairly healthy applications of this mechanic because each one of them has strengths and weaknesses that can be exploited. Fizz and Kat are squishy and get wrecked by CC. MF and Varus have no escapes and Trist is fairly weak early game.

Cale0172 votes

{quoted}

You also have Katarina, Fizz, Miss Fortune, Varus and Tristana who can apply Grievous Wounds with their abilities.

I think they're fairly healthy applications of this mechanic because each one of them has strengths and weaknesses that can be exploited. Fizz and Kat are squishy and get wrecked by CC. MF and Varus have no escapes and Trist is fairly weak early game.

I didn't want to go too far into the specifics on which champions could do it given that I was already explaining how it wasn't necessary for most of them. Again, those champions aren't too worried about reducing your healing effects. Sure it might cinch them a win once in a while, but it isn't how they're winning in general. Sheer overwhelming damage output is what gets them kills nine times out of ten. The Grievous Wounds effects only make them a pain to lane against early on. But you certainly do bring up some good points, especially given that the champions who DO have those abilities fall under the right kind of pressure.

Although I dare say that Fizz isn't as weak to CC as some like to say given how slippery he is when that trollpoll is fully ranked with a horrifically low cooldown.

Nubeel1 votes

Well Fizz is a bullshit champ with design flaws that are too numerous and complicated to discuss thoroughly.

Sure sheer damage is how they generally get their kills but against a champ like Akali who has sheer damage on top of healing from her spellvamp (thanks mostly single target spells) Kat and Fizz would have a slight edge against her because of their grievous wounds which more or less puts them on equal footing.

Cale0172 votes

{quoted}

Well Fizz is a bullshit champ with design flaws that are too numerous and complicated to discuss thoroughly.

Sure sheer damage is how they generally get their kills but against a champ like Akali who has sheer damage on top of healing from her spellvamp (thanks mostly single target spells) Kat and Fizz would have a slight edge against her because of their grievous wounds which more or less puts them on equal footing.

Not as much as you might think. They aren't doing a whole lot by reducing her healing because in a battle between assassins it isn't about who can out-heal the other. It's about who can out-damage the other. It doesn't matter if Akali can heal at her full capacity if you blow her up before she gets a chance to. And it doesn't matter if they can reduce Akali's ability to heal if she can blow them up before they can kill her anyways. Right now Kat has an advantage in early damage because her ult requires little to no setup, and her ult will still fire at Akali even while she's in her shroud, and Fizz can make her hiding in her shroud entirely useless by casting his ult into the center of it or troll polling into it to let the AoE damage burst her down.

It's not because of Grievous Wounds. The most those are doing to help them win fights is against fighters or offtanks who are building lifesteal, or tanks who have a lot of health regen that they need a cycle or two of their abilities to get all the way through.

Nubeel1 votes

It is minimal but still there. If a Kat starts ulting an Akali, the Akali in question will try to kill Kat as quickly as possible. But Kat's Grievous Wounds will reduce Akali's healing possibly to the point where she gets outdamaged and loses the fight.

TheScarface901 votes

if you want go kata i will play akali and show me how you will win the game

Nubeel1 votes

I'm NA though and your profile says you're EUW.

TheScarface901 votes

I think i have Na profile give me your name

Cale0171 votes

{quoted}

It is minimal but still there. If a Kat starts ulting an Akali, the Akali in question will try to kill Kat as quickly as possible. But Kat's Grievous Wounds will reduce Akali's healing possibly to the point where she gets outdamaged and loses the fight.

No, no it really won't. If an Akali stays close enough to an ulting Katarina to deal enough damage to kill her, she's going to die first.

Assume they both Q each other. Kat uses shunpo and then her AoE attack to pop the damage, while Akali uses R to proc the mark and then E to deal a bit more damage. So they both mark each other, both dive each other, and both deal a burst of extra damage to each other.

But now Akali is so close to Kat that she can't simply walk out of the ult before it finishes, and even if she tries to flash out she's still in the danger zone of taking ult hits. If she tries to hide in her shroud, Kat's ult will still affect her just the same since it can target stealthed enemies. Akali's Q is still down for another 4 seconds, and her ult can only help her escape if there are enemy minions nearby, and even then it's still on enough of a cooldown to make it so she's sitting and taking at least half of Kat's ult before she can use her own to deal a bit more damage to Kat.

Kat is dealing more damage than Akali can heal from before Akali can deal enough damage to kill an evenly built Katarina. Unless Akali has a Rabadon's Deathcap and a Lich Bane as well, she needs more than just a Q R E combo to kill Kat. But if Akali has those, so would kat, and Kat at that point would be able to kill Akali from a Q R while Akali can't unload her own combo as quickly as she'd have to wait for Q to connect before running in, while Kat's simply spinning in place dealing over a thousand damage off of her ult alone, and comparable damage off of her Q proc.

Sorry, but no. Reducing Akali's sustain isn't what kills her. Dealing a mass amount of damage a little bit quicker than she can deal it back is what kills her.

TheScarface901 votes

You are absolutly right akali build Hextech Gunblade and heal herself for so much. Q+E = healing half of hp

MPendragon2 votes

He's right, AD champions do need Grievous Wounds back, it's very unbalanced.

Mages have Morello's, Bruisers need Executioner's Blade back. It's rather difficult to counter an ADC (top, bot, mid, or jungle) without being able to half their lifesteal. They will spiral out of control, and without a counter to them being able to regenerate their HP reliably, i.e. without requiring to have ignite on every player, it creates an imbalance.

Nubeel1 votes

The bigger problem is how ineffective armor is VS a Last Whisper.

You can spend 8K gold on tank items and an ADC can make it useless with 2300 gold.

My suggestion is to make Thornmail apply Grievous wounds on top of the 30% damage reflection. Because atm ADC's are healing more than the Thornmail hurts them. Tell me of one situation where it is more beneficial to go full tank rather than mostly tank.

TheScarface901 votes

You are absolutly right but if thormail have Grievous wounds will be too ap. One champion like mundo will be immortal. Its only one adc this is the role in the game of adc to destroy the tank. The idea is tank go in tank have no dmg or have low dmg and when you do cc your ap and adc to killed them. If you can kill adc with tank will be suck the game. Nothing personal just this I think. Will be great to be like before item just passive to be different

Nubeel1 votes

Yes but the thing is that tanks these days are fairly useless. They either build full tank and get ignored the whole fight because they do no damage then focused down in seconds because armor penetration. Or they build some damage and get focused instantly because armor penetration.

Obviously if the Thornmail had grievous wounds it would come at a cost. Either less armor or a much higher cost but something needs to be done about armor pen being as effective as it is right now.

TheScarface901 votes

mmm no because adc build at the last items last wisper. If they build early they have not enought dmg. I think if had a item which reduce healing will be balanced. I talk for Executioner's Calling with new passive. Stack on hit with max 5 stack and max 40% heal reduce. When you will hit someone 5 times at the start ? And this will stay 1 sec you have to hit him 5 sec to stack

TheScarface901 votes

I understand but sometimes you play ad champion vs lane liek mundo. Late game he have so much sustain and just sitting and healing. Adc or assasins have to be so fed to be possible to killed him. Its great if have some item to reduce healing. This item will have passive to reduce healing with 50 % and will give low ad or attack speed and passive cna be changed to be posiible under 50% . This will remove op healing on tanky champions to stay in all teamfight and dont scared that can be killed from someone beause they have healing passives. Swain just go in and dont care. If ap carry dont build the item which reduce healing its impossible to stop them. Its important to have ad item to reduce healing can be active not passive with 60 sec cd like dead fire grasp. This item will be not op because you dont have enought place for items. If you buidl this you have to remove someone. Id adc or assasins build it they will have less dmg or will have no defensive item. Its balanced.

Nubeel1 votes

Well your problem is that you're ulting a hyper tank like Mundo instead of the ADC or Midlaner behind him or if you really need to kill him then you just ignite him or play an AP champion and buy a Morellomicon. Another alternative is to pick Vayne since her true damage is based off of max HP and BOTRK does %HP damage as well which means his tankiness doesn't matter. You might also play a lane bully against Swain and Mundo and stop them from ever even getting to the point where they're difficult to kill.

As for an item like this being balanced, it's not. There are so many champions in the game that rely on healing and would be screwed over by this item. Zac for example. He's in a bad position already and this item would mean they need to buff him MASSIVELY or he would be completely useless since his healing from blobs wouldn't be worth the trouble of picking them up. Aatrox as well would get fucked over by it since he needs to make a choice between healing and doing less damage and not healing but taking damage in exchange for doing more of it.

Since you mention Swain I'd like to point out that even with a blue buff his ult will drain his mana completely in a few seconds. That means that if you wait it out then he'll have no mana and have to recall or die especially since he needs to cast the rest of his spells during fights. Also don't fight him in minion waves since he restores mana everytime he kills a unit.

P.S. Deathfire Grasp's cooldown is 90 seconds. It was made higher a few patches ago to counter those pesky AP burst assassins.

TheScarface901 votes

This is not true like you said because if ap carry is idiot or they burt him he cant stop the heal of noone. I was playing in this team swain mid, nami bot, mundo top and ww jungle! how to kill someone lategame? Mundo is hyper tank go in all hit hit hit he just ult and run. Swain go in and put zonya and countinie haling after zonya he is on full health and what you can to do ? WW i dont think is need to talk here. Swain have no cd on ull, mundo ult have low cd. Why dont do the item liek The Black Cleaver? Even is possible to be with the same passive just not for armor and replace with heal reduce. Will be so good if this items stack like The Black Cleaver. It have to many champins with tons of sustain you do new items for healing but dont do them counters. How to counter them ? with dmg ? dmg doesnt help because healing is highter than damage taken !

MPendragon1 votes

Mundo, Nasus, Zed, Riven, Rek-Sai.

Champions which are relatively hard to shut down without Grievous Wounds.

TheScarface901 votes

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If have an item who stack liek The Black Cleaver will be nice i think +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ What do you think ?

Nubeel1 votes

There used to be one Called Executioners Calling. No Idea why Riot got rid of it last patch but it used to give 25 AD, 25% crit chance and instantly apply Grievous Wounds for 1.5 seconds.

I assume that they got rid of it because it was fairly shitty for what it cost but it was the only item other than the Morellonomicon to apply Grievous Wounds.

I hope their removal of it means they're working on a new item that people might actually buy.

Rebonack1 votes

Well how about we have some fun with it?

item 3144+item 3122+item 3086+Combine = Executioner's Calling

Grants AD, IAS, Crit Chance, and Lifesteal. Unique active: slows, damages, and applies Grievous Wounds. CRITICAL AUGMENT: Crits cause the target to bleed for (percentage of bonus AD) over three seconds and apply Grievous Wounds.

And to keep it from being dumb, we would make Infinity Edge's passive also named CRITICAL AUGMENT to keep them from stacking with each other.

TheScarface901 votes

Wicked Hatchet is disable on 5 vs 5 map only 3 vs 3. And witht this items you cant stop healing on mundo or swain or even olaf who remove cc :)

cZair1 votes

I say no to this because this will just make ADC even more crazy making it harder for tanks and bruisers. That depend on there healing.

TheScarface901 votes

will be great to have item who give 25 attack damage, 10% cooldown reduction and passive: dealing physical damage to an enemy champion reduce their healing by 10% for 2 seconds (stack up to 5 times, up to 50%). This item will build from the brutalizer - 1337 gold and then build new item and will cost 1800 gold

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