ARURF Club IS Pay to win. URF is dead

BuffaloJuggler·Jan 31, 2019·8 votes·3,793 views

Paying for a pass for extra rerolls is paying to win. Im really sorry this is very long-winded but please bear with me.

"Well you could get a worse champion" -

If you lost the champion you rolled it would make sense but starting with , into into . Still leaves you with as your strongest pick. There is only an advantage to rerolls. There is literally no disadvtange so this arguement I keep hearing being brought up is absolutely bogus. What if the order were to be ? You would need the pass to get your "good" champion"

Here's another example, lets say you get . What is stopping you from trading fizz to your friend or hitting roll and insta clicking fizz back in the pool and rolling a total of 2 champions if you will ALWAYS have 2 extra rolls?

If your 3 (extremely unlikely but for the sake of arguement) rolls are Everyone on your team takes advantage of you spending money.

If one team gets to choose from 10 random champs And one team gets to choose from 15 random champs

I wonder who wins

I rest my case.

Closing statement: Look at how they took URF with bans and hard bans, where yeah, a lot of the same 30ish champs were played but most people knew exactly what they were getting into every game and turned it into ARURF where the game is won in champ select because we got . NOBODY WANTS TO PLAY THESE they are ENTIRELY OUTCLASSED by and not fun against . AND THEN THEY TURN TO P2W on the whats supposed to be a crazy, fun, stressfree, lighthearted gamemode because they know deep deep down that going 1/13 as wasnt your decision and you're not really having a whole lotta fun. Why not spend $10 to have a little more fun ay?

38 Comments

GreenKnightJan 31, 20194 votes

Like i said previously: It's not P2W. You get rerolls after playing games. Paying players don't have to play one game without rerolls, but still have the same chance of getting trashy champs. Yes, it's stupid and pointless, but it's not pay to win.

BuffaloJugglerJan 31, 20193 votes

You really don't understand this concept???

Imagine if one player gets to roll a d20 twice and gets to keep their highest number

And the other player gets to roll a d20 thrice and gets to keep their highest number

Over 100 turns the player who get to roll thrice will have an unfair advantage on the person who only gets to roll twice. Its not totally random dude. Its pay to win.

GreenKnightJan 31, 20193 votes

{quoted}

You really don't understand this concept???

Imagine if one player gets to roll a d20 twice and gets to keep their highest number

And the other player gets to roll a d20 thrice and gets to keep their highest number

Over 100 turns the player who get to roll thrice will have an unfair advantage on the person who only gets to roll twice. Its not totally random dude. Its pay to win.

I'm not going to argue about it again, i think i made my point clear over 3 threads now.

BuffaloJugglerJan 31, 20194 votes

Players with all champions unlocked and the urf pass get 3 random champions EVERY SINGLE GAME without consequence.

And their team gets to take advantage of their rolls.

Do you see how this could at all be unfair? How more chances for getting a better champion is an advantage.

GreenKnightJan 31, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Players with all champions unlocked and the urf pass get 3 random champions EVERY SINGLE GAME without consequence.

And their team gets to take advantage of their rolls.

Do you see how this could at all be unfair? How more chances for getting a better champion is an advantage.

They get 2, it's just that one those rerolls doesn't have to be earned by playing a match.

SukishooJan 31, 20191 votes

Nope. You still only get 2 rerolls, it doesn't increase the number.

TrainerRoboJan 31, 20193 votes

In the description of the golden spatula club, it says that the max rerolls you can do in a lobby is two.

All that means is a person playing urf with the club is guaranteed to have one reroll per game, whith the maximum still at two. You can still get two rerolls without paying for the pass, and calling it pay to win because of that is dumb.

BuffaloJugglerJan 31, 20191 votes

If you have all champions you get 1 reroll,

If you have all champions and urf pass you get 2 rerolls correct?

What would ever stop someone with an urfpass from rolling twice to give their team a chance for better champions every single game?

TrainerRoboJan 31, 20192 votes

I dont own all the champions and ive had times where I get two rerolls, so i dont know what youre talking about.

BuffaloJugglerJan 31, 20192 votes

Did you have 0 rerolls and then go to the next game and have 2?

ploobbMar 26, 20191 votes

You seem special bud. Late to the party, but here goes. URF works just like ARAM. You earn points per game towards rerolls. You can hold 2 rerolls. The URF pass simply gives you a free reroll every game, not exceeding the 2 cap, so if you held onto 2 rerolls via points, you do not get a third from the pass. Someone else without the pass, can also get 2 rerolls, they simply don't get the free one. AKA, all it really does is give you an average of 1.5 rerolls per game, where as someone without the pass has 0.5 rerolls per game. Capping at 2.

KFCeytronJan 31, 20193 votes

{quoted}

In the description of the golden spatula club, it says that the max rerolls you can do in a lobby is two.

All that means is a person playing urf with the club is guaranteed to have one reroll per game, whith the maximum still at two. You can still get two rerolls without paying for the pass, and calling it pay to win because of that is dumb.

Yeah, the maximum at two, and the minimum no longer at zero. Someone with this pass will have more opportunities at stronger champs, and that is an in-game advantage. It's P2W plain and simple.

On My Kill ListJan 31, 20193 votes

it is unfair i agree. if one team has no spatula and the other has spatula i can see it definitely being bs. but hey its riot. personally i don't think the club pass is a good idea. same with the cannon ball.(which is part of the reason why urf this time ends much faster then previous ones)

OleandervineJan 31, 20193 votes

The URF pass is not pay to win. It's a colossal waste of money. You're paying $10 for meager bonuses in a timed event, with only an icon to keep. You're better off blowing that $10 on an actual skin.

Kai GuyJan 31, 20192 votes

I object to calling it pay to win. There is no Pay wall preventing you from winning with out extra rerolls.

Your correct, it is an advantage for a single account comparative to another single account. The Lack of a reroll for teammates and enemys will be RNG, For any individual match there is no assurance your Paid reroll is going to have any value or assist you in a win. It will be RNG. Your example of 10 vs 15 is not reflective of reality of any match. A 5 man team could just as easily only have 1 set of rerolls even with all of them having the pass. You cant have more then 2 per game even with the pass.

Any individual game the advantage from the pass will be Random. Its never a BAD thing. But it does not inherently give you a win. It does not guaranty victory.

Victory is not being held behind paywalls. So that's not PAY 2 WIN.

BuffaloJugglerJan 31, 20191 votes

Im saying though if you have all champs and an urfpass you will always get 2 rerolls.

That person will/should roll twice every single match giving themselves/team 3 chances every game for a good champ.

Kai GuyJan 31, 20192 votes

I am not arguing its not an advantage. Your more then welcome to actively hate it. I am not sold its more of an advantage then a dedicated Aram account. Look, You are more then welcome to hate it. You don't have to like it. You can get upset at riot for it. There's nothing wrong with you viewing it as unfair.

Its very clearly not Pay to win however. There is no pay wall preventing victory for free users. Its not every top tier hero being Cash only unlocks. Its not having guns and gear with Stats always better then free items. Its not a fancy Boat/Spaceship/Tank with extra firepower hp ammo etc.

Plenty of Free to play games have advantages you can gain with $. Leauge for seasons 1-7 had rune pages. Running rune pages was a pre game advantage. Multiple pages for your main gave you better match up options vs not having them.

Over a long string of games this advantage could generate a higher win %. Or not. Just having the advantage was not and is not adequate to ensure a win.

That's Still not pay to win.

Your a Zerg main. New expansion comes out and new units fix the major issues with zerg playpatterns you use. You buy the expansion. Your now stronger and can win more games by using new unit types. Purchased power?

That's an advantage. That's also behind spending $. Do we ever call expansion packs Pay to win?

I say no. I say pay to win is literally that, you have to pay to be able to win. You cant compete seriously otherwise.

Your welcome to disagreeing if you want, but I don't see how any one who has any experience with pay to win games would feel gold spatula club accomplishes this. And if your so nit picky about $ being spent on anything for an advantage you shoulda had beef with league from season 1.

So again, not asking you to like it. Just want to be clear that this is not a Pay to win Situation.

BuffaloJugglerJan 31, 20191 votes

Hey man I appreciate your reply.

I understand that p2w means something a lot worse for people who are familiar with shady f2p games and I personally think runepages were a p2w mechanic. Though I grinded this game so long I never bought a champ with rp and think only bought 2 out of 18 runepages with RP because of a sale. I already had a number of them.

But I don't think we should dismiss these things as not p2w. Even if its a dumb casual gamemode. It's reprehensible to pay money for OBVIOUS advantages. This reroll thing isnt even a "If you look at it like this" No. Its a straight up advantage. But things don't have to be blatantly obvious to convince players to pay money to be successful and win. Its a disgusting tactic and should be spotlighted at every chance. And speaking of ARAM accounts...this doesnt help against those who switch over to ARURF. LOL. that sucks. xD

About the zerg thing Im unsure about how to feel about that. I do think that games should be accessible and competitive from the get-go. Though I understand there's a lot of work put into an iteration of said expansion and was released much later. Preferably they could let whales pay for skins or something xD and have everything be accessible in multiplayer but release single-player separately but I'm not ignorant enough to not know that the game's core is the multiplayer. But I actually do kind of disagree with it but idk the solution I guess. There's got to be a more creative and inclusive way to handle it. But that's an outsiders opinion and I dont know their finances or demographics or stats or anything. I cant hold a concrete opinion. Its something to think about.

Also didnt play league in season 1, only found out league in season 2, what was so bad about it im curious?

KFCeytronJan 31, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BnOMXey0,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-01-31T01:53:40.366+0000)

I object to calling it pay to win. There is no Pay wall preventing you from winning with out extra rerolls.

Your correct, it is an advantage for a single account comparative to another single account. The Lack of a reroll for teammates and enemys will be RNG, For any individual match there is no assurance your Paid reroll is going to have any value or assist you in a win. It will be RNG. Your example of 10 vs 15 is not reflective of reality of any match. A 5 man team could just as easily only have 1 set of rerolls even with all of them having the pass. You cant have more then 2 per game even with the pass.

Any individual game the advantage from the pass will be Random. Its never a BAD thing. But it does not inherently give you a win. It does not guaranty victory.

Victory is not being held behind paywalls. So that's not PAY 2 WIN.

And there's no pay wall preventing you from winning without the Super Prestige Worlds Pass with +30% crit chance in every match. I mean, crit is RNG, there's no assurance you'll crit, it doesn't inherently give you a win, and you might even be playing a champ that doesn't care about crit chance, like a mage.

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BnOMXey0,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-01-31T02:38:48.227+0000)

I am not arguing its not an advantage. Your more then welcome to actively hate it. I am not sold its more of an advantage then a dedicated Aram account. Look, You are more then welcome to hate it. You don't have to like it. You can get upset at riot for it. There's nothing wrong with you viewing it as unfair.

Its very clearly not Pay to win however. There is no pay wall preventing victory for free users. Its not every top tier hero being Cash only unlocks. Its not having guns and gear with Stats always better then free items. Its not a fancy Boat/Spaceship/Tank with extra firepower hp ammo etc.

Plenty of Free to play games have advantages you can gain with $. Leauge for seasons 1-7 had rune pages. Running rune pages was a pre game advantage. Multiple pages for your main gave you better match up options vs not having them.

Over a long string of games this advantage could generate a higher win %. Or not. Just having the advantage was not and is not adequate to ensure a win.

That's Still not pay to win.

Your a Zerg main. New expansion comes out and new units fix the major issues with zerg playpatterns you use. You buy the expansion. Your now stronger and can win more games by using new unit types. Purchased power?

That's an advantage. That's also behind spending $. Do we ever call expansion packs Pay to win?

I say no. I say pay to win is literally that, you have to pay to be able to win. You cant compete seriously otherwise.

Your welcome to disagreeing if you want, but I don't see how any one who has any experience with pay to win games would feel gold spatula club accomplishes this. And if your so nit picky about $ being spent on anything for an advantage you shoulda had beef with league from season 1.

So again, not asking you to like it. Just want to be clear that this is not a Pay to win Situation.

A Super Prestige Worlds Pass with +30% crit chance in every match would perhaps be an advantage, but not more of an advantage than owning more champs to have good counterpicks for every situation. You can view it as unfair.

However, it's very clearly not pay to win. There is no pay wall preventing victory for free users. The stats aren't better than free items, and it's not like you get more opportunities for top tier heroes like you get with the ARURF pass. Over a long string of games, +30% crit chance could generate a higher win %. Or not. Just having the advantage was not and is not adequate to ensure a win. That's still not pay to win. Until anyone who doesn't pay cash is 100% guaranteed a loss and anyone who pays cash is instantly 100% guaranteed a win, it's totally fine to be selling a competitive advantage in a PvP game.

Totally not pay to win. I just want to be clear about that. It's just +30% crit chance. Feel free to disagree. But I want you to know that you're wrong. Because I'm right.

Bears Dont CareJan 31, 20193 votes

{quoted}

snipped for space

Strawman, complete mis-representation of your opponent's argument The statement was in regards to re-rolls, which involves the chances of rolling a champion, NOT an actual increase with in game stats. I can understand your intent, but the actual effect is completely different as well as the statistical advantage being completely different as well

The two are completely different, and on top of this, statistics would like to point out that an additional re-roll does not provide a significant advantage to those with the pass.

You have a 0.006% chance of getting any one champion. Even if you rolled twice more, you still have a very, very, very, very, very low chance of getting a singular champ. If you even wanted one of 5, or even 20, the chances still are very low.

BuffaloJugglerJan 31, 20193 votes

Its .699% you forgot to move your decimal place. But the other team gets 5 picks automatically and whatever champions they have in their pool so about a .80% chance or so

Regardless there is no consequence to rerolling twice (if you have all champions) even if you get 3 crappy picks. You get to pick the best one of those or others' rolls. A stacked team will get 5 rolls more every game. This is rare to find a stacked team vs a nonstacked but its to prove a point.

KFCeytronJan 31, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BnOMXey0,comment-id=00040000000000010000,timestamp=2019-01-31T04:57:54.839+0000)

Strawman, complete mis-representation of your opponent's argument The statement was in regards to re-rolls, which involves the chances of rolling a champion, NOT an actual increase with in game stats. I can understand your intent, but the actual effect is completely different as well as the statistical advantage being completely different as well

The two are completely different, and on top of this, statistics would like to point out that an additional re-roll does not provide a significant advantage to those with the pass.

You have a 0.006% chance of getting any one champion. Even if you rolled twice more, you still have a very, very, very, very, very low chance of getting a singular champ. If you even wanted one of 5, or even 20, the chances still are very low.

Yeah, some champs in URF mode are worth significantly more than +30% crit chance. For example, you first get Yasuo, but then you reroll and get Annie. If you'd used all your rerolls the previous match, you wouldn't be able to do that without the paid pass.

By the way, it's 0.6%, not 0.006%. And at this point you're just arguing that a small in-game advantage is okay. It's not small, and it's not okay, but Riot's selling it because people are buying it. The "more chances at an advantage isn't an advantage" and "it's only URF" excuses will have to evolve into "higher chance at beneficial Scuttle spawn isn't necessarily an advantage" and "it's only normals" or "it's only Silver and below." Be patient; it'll come, because money.

Bears Dont CareJan 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, some champs in URF mode are worth significantly more than +30% crit chance. For example, you first get Yasuo, but then you reroll and get Annie. If you'd used all your rerolls the previous match, you wouldn't be able to do that without the paid pass.

Again, this is merely a strawman. The two are simply not equatable. It is the same as someone making a comparison to Hitler.

By the way, it's 0.6%, not 0.006%. My error, I was calculating earlier from 0 to 1 so the decimals get funky.

And at this point you're just arguing that a small in-game advantage is okay. It isn't an advantage. Statistically speaking, it isn't an advantage.

It's not small,

0.6% is small. Very small.

and it's not okay,

Based on? You get two rolls and you're hoping of getting the once chance of 1/146, pardon, 5/146.

Extremely low.

but Riot's selling it because people are buying it.

People are dumb.

The "more chances at an advantage isn't an advantage It isn't an advantage. You keep declaring it an advantage but you have yet to demonstrate in any defining way that it is an advantage. The rerolls cap at 2.

So again, probability does not favor that individual because in every single event, the maximum rolls you get is 2. If we are looking for an advantage it must be actually discernable, not one that says "MAYBE gets Annie. MAYBE gets Kassadin. It's only a 0.6% chance!"

" and "it's only URF" excuses will have to evolve into "higher chance at beneficial Scuttle spawn isn't necessarily an advantage" and "it's only normals" or "it's only Silver and below." Be patient; it'll come, because money.

Slippery slope fallacy present.

"If we do this thing then this thing will occur!"

There is no evidence that suggests they would introduce anything substantial to the game which would not be conferred in equal portions to all players involved. The re-rolls are far from p2w. They do not confer an advantage that is insurmountable for players who are not paying money to overcome. Which is the defintion of p2w. When you must pay money in order to keep up with those who are dropping cash.

You guys are literally looking for any reason to bash Riot. At least pick a more substantial one.

KFCeytronJan 31, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BnOMXey0,comment-id=0004000000000001000000020000,timestamp=2019-01-31T08:09:09.035+0000)

Again, this is merely a strawman. The two are simply not equatable. It is the same as someone making a comparison to Hitler. My error, I was calculating earlier from 0 to 1 so the decimals get funky. It isn't an advantage. Statistically speaking, it isn't an advantage.

0.6% is small. Very small.

Based on? You get two rolls and you're hoping of getting the once chance of 1/146, pardon, 5/146.

Extremely low.

People are dumb. It isn't an advantage. You keep declaring it an advantage but you have yet to demonstrate in any defining way that it is an advantage. The rerolls cap at 2.

So again, probability does not favor that individual because in every single event, the maximum rolls you get is 2. If we are looking for an advantage it must be actually discernable, not one that says "MAYBE gets Annie. MAYBE gets Kassadin. It's only a 0.6% chance!"

Slippery slope fallacy present.

"If we do this thing then this thing will occur!"

There is no evidence that suggests they would introduce anything substantial to the game which would not be conferred in equal portions to all players involved. The re-rolls are far from p2w. They do not confer an advantage that is insurmountable for players who are not paying money to overcome. Which is the defintion of p2w. When you must pay money in order to keep up with those who are dropping cash.

You guys are literally looking for any reason to bash Riot. At least pick a more substantial one.

It's not a strawman at all. You can use the same arguments for and against it. It's a better chance of success that may not always pan out. Would it have been more understandable with a lower value, like +1% crit chance? Those +1% crit chance runes occasionally won lanes.

Arguing that it's a small competitive advantage - which you are doing when you repeat "it's only 0.6%" - is substantively different from arguing that it's not a competitive advantage.

It's not okay because it provides a competitive advantage in a PvP game, even a small advantage.

People aren't dumb for wanting an advantage. They're kind of unethical for buying it, but not nearly as Riot is being for offering it.

The maximum number of rerolls is two, but someone with an event pass isn't going to have zero rerolls for a match. That's the whole purpose behind this pass: more rerolls. That's what it does. And, once more, you're arguing that it's a small competitive advantage to get more chances than other players do at turning a terrible URF champ into a great one, or even merely a better one.

Riot is testing the waters. If people buy this thing (and they are) and most of the playerbase says things like "it's not a competitive advantage because it's either zero or one extra rerolls which is just a chance at a better champ," do you really think they're not going to push it? P2W is a gold mine that no company could ignore if it ever became a viable revenue strategy. As long as it's working, Riot will expand it. They're under enormous pressure to turn their shrinking business back into a growing one. Maybe the next time we see a pass like this, it'll increase the reroll cap to 3 or something. Baby steps.

The thing about the "definition" of P2W is that each person has a different "line in the sand" where they think it's no longer okay. Some people don't see any "pay to win" until paying guarantees winning and not paying guarantees losing. Others (such as myself) see even the slightest impingement of cash on gameplay as the introduction of P2W. For example, when WoW introduced its first non-service (e.g. name change) microtransaction, the Celestial Steed, I saw that as P2W. Someone who bought that mount no longer had to spend gold on any level of ground or flying mounts for any character on the account ever again, saving thousands that they could spend instead on gems, flasks, and so on. For most people, it's somewhere in the middle. Buying another roll of the dice for an OP champ (or just a stronger one) in a PvP mode of a PvP game is way over that middle line, but for now we're seeing desperate rationalizations as people move the goalposts to excuse this.

It provides a competitive advantage in a PvP game for cash, which is P2W, and it's disgusting that we've come to this, especially after LoL has been so resistant to it for so long.

Bears Dont CareJan 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

It's not a strawman at all. You can use the same arguments for and against it. It's a better chance of success that may not always pan out. Would it have been more understandable with a lower value, like +1% crit chance? Those +1% crit chance runes occasionally won lanes.

It is a strawman, because it does not convey an advantage which another player who is not paying cannot compete against. In consideration of the fact that it gives you a small chance at getting a champion you want, that isn't pay to win. Hell, just because you receive the champion you want does not guarantee a win in urf mode.

Arguing that it's a small competitive advantage - which you are doing when you repeat "it's only 0.6%" - is substantively different from arguing that it's not a competitive advantage.

Wrong, that was YOUR argument. I stated very clearly, that it still remains very low in terms of getting the champion you WANT, it doesn't automatically mean you will win the game, and does not change your chances of winning the game in anyway. it only changes your chances of getting the champion you want SLIGHTLY. THis is not a competitive advantage.

It's not okay because it provides a competitive advantage in a PvP game, even a small advantage.

Except that it doesn't. You have not demonstrated in any objective way how it provides an advantage outside of saying "it gives you a very small bonus of getting what you want!", while completely ignoring how it provides an actual ingame advantage.

People aren't dumb for wanting an advantage. They're kind of unethical for buying it, but not nearly as Riot is being for offering it.

People are't dumb for wanting it, they're dumb because this does not provide one.

The maximum number of rerolls is two, but someone with an event pass isn't going to have zero rerolls for a match. That's the whole purpose behind this pass: more rerolls. That's what it does. And, once more, you're arguing that it's a small competitive advantage to get more chances than other players do at turning a terrible URF champ into a great one, or even merely a better one.

Again, never said its a competitive advantage, you are transposing your view on the matter on myself. It does not provide you a competitive advantage because it doesn't alter gameplay. Even if i have 2 re-rolls, I am just as likely to get Evelynn as I was before the re-rolls because of how statistically insignificant the advantage would be.

Riot is testing the waters. If people buy this thing (and they are) and most of the playerbase says things like "it's not a competitive advantage because it's either zero or one extra rerolls which is just a chance at a better champ," do you really think they're not going to push it? P2W is a gold mine that no company could ignore if it ever became a viable revenue strategy. As long as it's working, Riot will expand it. They're under enormous pressure to turn their shrinking business back into a growing one. Maybe the next time we see a pass like this, it'll increase the reroll cap to 3 or something. Baby steps.

What says they will?

The thing about the "definition" of P2W is that each person has a different "line in the sand" where they think it's no longer okay. Some people don't see any "pay to win" until paying guarantees winning and not paying guarantees losing.

THAT IS WHAT PAY TO WIN MEANS!

Others (such as myself) see even the slightest impingement of cash on gameplay as the introduction of P2W.

Which is objectively wrong to state and is wrong.

For example, when WoW introduced its first non-service (e.g. name change) microtransaction, the Celestial Steed, I saw that as P2W.

This argument you are pushing forward is utterly ridiculous. Pay to win is self defining. Think archage, where you could not keep up with anyone who was paying money into the game simply because you could not craft while they could.

KFCeytronJan 31, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BnOMXey0,comment-id=000400000000000100000002000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-31T19:24:41.513+0000)

It is a strawman, because it does not convey an advantage which another player who is not paying cannot compete against. In consideration of the fact that it gives you a small chance at getting a champion you want, that isn't pay to win. Hell, just because you receive the champion you want does not guarantee a win in urf mode.

Wrong, that was YOUR argument. I stated very clearly, that it still remains very low in terms of getting the champion you WANT, it doesn't automatically mean you will win the game, and does not change your chances of winning the game in anyway. it only changes your chances of getting the champion you want SLIGHTLY. THis is not a competitive advantage.

Except that it doesn't. You have not demonstrated in any objective way how it provides an advantage outside of saying "it gives you a very small bonus of getting what you want!", while completely ignoring how it provides an actual ingame advantage.

People are't dumb for wanting it, they're dumb because this does not provide one.

Again, never said its a competitive advantage, you are transposing your view on the matter on myself. It does not provide you a competitive advantage because it doesn't alter gameplay. Even if i have 2 re-rolls, I am just as likely to get Evelynn as I was before the re-rolls because of how statistically insignificant the advantage would be.

What says they will?

THAT IS WHAT PAY TO WIN MEANS!

Which is objectively wrong to state and is wrong.

This argument you are pushing forward is utterly ridiculous. Pay to win is self defining. Think archage, where you could not keep up with anyone who was paying money into the game simply because you could not craft while they could.

It's not a strawman. ARURF pass is a chance at an advantage in a game, just like crit chance is a chance at an advantage in a game, which is an advantage. A player without that pass doesn't have as many chances to roll a strong champ. It is objectively stronger to buy the pass.

I see you're of the "it's not P2W unless paying guarantees a win and not paying guarantees a loss" mindset, which is probably why we're disagreeing. Since this is a competitive PvP game rather than an NPC stomp, the only way to make guarantees like that is to grant victory to whoever pays more. However, even a small advantage in a PvP game ruins the competition, and it becomes "whoever spent (more) money is more likely to win," which is why other people have a problem with this.

The "change" the pass grants you in your chances of getting the champion you want is an increase, making it a competitive advantage, however slight. Do you know the difference between "zero" and "not zero"? It's very important.

Yes it does. The "extra chance at getting what you want" is a chance for stronger champions, which have a huge impact in a mode like URF. Some champs are mediocre in URF, others are terrible, others are fantastic. An extra roll of the dice to possibly change your Karthus to a Vel'Koz is an advantage that non-payers won't have (note, an extra roll of the dice, which is what the pass provides).

Calling people dumb for thinking this provides an advantage when it does is an ad hominem, and, since I've clearly been saying that it provides an advantage, it's specifically an insult to to me.

"I am just as likely to get Evelynn as I was before the re-rolls because of how statistically insignificant the advantage would be" LOLOLOL. The chance is small, therefore it is zero! Are you for real? Calling people dumb and then confusing numbers that are zero with numbers that aren't zero?

Riot will increase the advantages you can get from paying money if it's profitable. If they gain more income from selling these things than they do from people leaving due to P2W, there's no sound business reason not to. Some people will pay a lot of money for competitive advantages, so if the backlash is pretty limited and shouted down by insistence that it's not P2W, it'll be worth it, and Riot should do it, because they're a business.

If you think that P2W only applies on guaranteed wins and losses, you'll basically never think anything is P2W. There could be armor in a cash shop granting +1000 all stats, and that doesn't guarantee a win (that person could troll, AFK, etc.), so it wouldn't be P2W by your definition. However, it's a competitive advantage (an enormous one), and anyone who values the integrity of a PvP game would have a problem with that.

Telling me that the statement that being able to buy advantages in a game means P2W "is objectively wrong to state and is wrong" is just redundant babbling with no substance (after you call anyone who disagrees with you "dumb").

Calling the purchase of competitive advantages in a PvP game "P2W" isn't "utterly ridiculous." You just don't have any argument other than logical fallacies. Frankly, I'm tired of your obstinacy and your rudeness, and I'm done talking to you here. Goodbye.

Bears Dont CareJan 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You just don't have any argument other than logical fallacies. Frankly, I'm tired of your obstinacy and your rudeness, and I'm done talking to you here. Goodbye.

Oh no! I don't have any argument! Let me claim someone committed a logical fallacy while ignoring the fact I've committed several. let me also ignore the fact I've yet to even demonstrate an advantage in game. Let me just say there is one. Wait. Not enough. Let me throw a passive aggressive remark and flee.

Good. I am sure people thought your argument regarding the Celestial steed was just as ignorant.

ModUlanopoFeb 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BnOMXey0,comment-id=00040000000000010000000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-31T20:00:42.677+0000)

Oh no! I don't have any argument! Let me claim someone committed a logical fallacy while ignoring the fact I've committed several. let me also ignore the fact I've yet to even demonstrate an advantage in game. Let me just say there is one. Wait. Not enough. Let me throw a passive aggressive remark and flee.

Good. I am sure people thought your argument regarding the Celestial steed was just as ignorant.

Just a reminder that responses like this are unhelpful and skirt towards breaking the golden rule about always being respectful. You should find a less antagonistic way to make your point.

myzebediahJan 31, 20192 votes

The story of Riot is taking a good game and making it worse and worse every year. You guys should be ashamed.

BuffaloJugglerJan 31, 20192 votes

Someone who has all champions unlocked and the urf pass get the maximum 2 rerolls EVERY SINGLE GAME. Because you only get a maximum of 2, if that person has ANY semblance of intelligence will reroll 2 times EVERY SINGLE GAME.

ModEvangeleFeb 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Someone who has all champions unlocked and the urf pass get the maximum 2 rerolls EVERY SINGLE GAME. Because you only get a maximum of 2, if that person has ANY semblance of intelligence will reroll 2 times EVERY SINGLE GAME.

Nami Hey there,

We've edited out a small portion of your post here. We ask then when you are responding to others or creating comments in general on your thread that you do so without any restrictive, demeaning or dismissing language. While we understand you may disagree with others, please do so in a respectful manner.

If you have any questions about this moderation action, don't hesitate to reach out to the Boards Moderation Team via:

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HammermancerJan 31, 20191 votes

i paid because fuck you i want more urf

iPooUnicornsJan 31, 20191 votes

Not gonna comment on the fairness of the pass, but Elise is incredibly strong in the right hands, and lethality Kalista is actually insanely strong (thanks to the damage boost to her)

ModPeriscopeJan 31, 20191 votes

It is an advantage, but not so large that it's significantly affecting your outcome in a game, especially when only one individual possess that pass.

It would be worst when you're playing with a group of 5 vs a group that doesn't have that advantage.

Pay 2 win is a stretch. You're paying for an advantage that is mostly for you, which won't always pan out nor be useful.

What if you re-roll your OP champ and someone picks up and doesn't want to swap back with you?

MH2409Mar 17, 20191 votes

Well then your Team in general still has an advantage, doesn't it?

Before I Start my argument:

My Definition ist for Pay2Win is. "You (or your team) get's a higher Chance of winning a Game if you (or somebody form your Team) invested RL Money in this Game"

I'll bring up this Example (I know that I copied it):

"Imagine if one player gets to roll a d20 twice and gets to keep their highest number

And the other player gets to roll a d20 thrice and gets to keep their highest number

Over 100 turns the player who get to roll thrice will have an unfair advantage on the person who only gets to roll twice. Its not totally random. Its pay to win."

The Conclusion is: