Shacos Rework didnt make him better

Son Of Zanarkand · 2016-11-10T11:15:00.518Z

Hey guys you may or may not know me on the Rift or tuned into my Stream on Twitch, I am a Gold IV player and I like to say I have a fair knowledge of the game by this point (5+ years playing). What troubles me is that the champion I know and love has been given the worst rework I have seen in awhile. Normally Riot you guys are pretty good at making the Rework champs having a upper edge on the rest to get the players on board and change the meta. Shaco... A Champion I know and love and mastered myself a little fancy lvl 7 mastery on this bad boy , has been tossed aside and all the other champs are crazy good. Shaco wasn't buffed, he was nerf'd. Now, im not going to get into the math of the disadvantages because most of you can find it out for yourself or give Shaclones YouTube vid a look see ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8OeHxloR_c ) I myself was a bit skeptical if Riot would pass him onto the server without buffing him, turn out I was wrong. Pros/Cons will start with the bad first. In the jg where I normally play him, although i've enjoyed my share of ap mid. He feels... clunky. Like I am learning to re jg again or maybe its the new jg or the fact he doesnt do as much dmg. I feel like I am struggling in the jg before I have even made it out to gank a lane. I dont even know what to max on him anymore, nothing feels like it makes an impact on what I pick. Q is what I go for now and thats only so I can extend the time invis and not for the "dmg" that comes with. the main focus on most Shaco players was his Shiv and now that feels like I am tickling them rather than seeing the awesome e dmg followed by burst of a invis gank . even by late game I dont feel like the same Shaco from last season, I feel like a last hitter and not an assassin. I dont get the Idea of ksing to get a kill now nor does it feel impactful in team fights. On to his R this was a great move by the dev team 100% and dont get me wrong it add value to the awkward ult that Shaco would have to fight others with BUT, he is never in a team fight long enough to have a chance to have his clone do anything nor does the boxes add value because if one dies, they all die. that removes the value 1000% times over. i would get It if they insta went invis but they dont. The enemy team has a chance to remove them with one auto attack and the passive from the clone is done. The good is going to be a bit shorter I feel. Shaco's q timers are an awesome mechanic that allows teams apposing him have the chance to feel more safe from his lane ganks and makes it so 1st time Shaco players are unable to balance and cheese . His W not being able to stack removes the cheese potential he had with baron/dragon and unfortunate people walking through jg. His E now and q now having better ap points making him a mid more viable and allowing players to extend his ares of play. The R gives Shaco players the chance to be a provided player in team fights and cause massive cc and ap aoe dmg. Will this be something you guys will look into and will there be a buff in later patch? Because at this point ill be attempting other champs a and putting my Shaco to rest until then. Id also like to hear from other Shaco mains or frequent players on what you guys think of the rework and is there any concerns if not the same as me. Or maybe you have and better build path or a way that helps you play him better let me know :)

Spooky AP KittyNov 10, 20161 votes

you say one shotting a squishy is not healthy. positioning, pink wards and hard CC/peel and kiting. macro wise starve the assassin is what counter them. not healthy is tryndamere one shot everyone, not healthy is Kayle 1x5. not healthy is Zyra support. not healthy is annie 1x3 almost every game.

BLACK REALM GODNov 10, 20161 votes

there are a lot of unhealthy things in league. that's what happens when new elements are added and old elements are removed when there are so many variables.

anything that does 1.5k hp damage without a valid answer is unhealthy. some if not most champions have less than 2k base hp already. your ultimate is supposed to be what grants you that kind of power spike not the basic attacks. basic attacks are supposed to be basic in nature. use them for small things that do not require your abilities. players werent doing that because they didnt have to.

when you complain about kayle, zyra, annie, and tryndamere and then support assassins being able to 1 shot by saying "ward, be more careful with your positioning, use effective kiting, crowd control for safer damage, and eventually you'll be strong enough to survive being one shotted" then you're being hypocritical and choosing sides based on your preferred role. you could use that same argument for any champion/tactic. that doesnt make it any more valid.

annie is easy to play and is easy to counter. she doesnt deal physical damage and her base health and resistances are low to compensate for her E. she has low mobility and all of her abilities are actives. it even shows you when she's near her 5th cast so you wont get stunned. her basic attack is limited in damage and range. she's a generic mage. stand in one place, press every button, run away, repeat. when she kills someone she doesnt usually 100-0 them with a basic attack or a single ability. she has to set up her stun and wait on tibbers to be ready or catch a low health opponent. that's very similar to what shaco needs to do now which is what he should have been doing all along.

tryndamere has problems and needs a rework. most likely he'll get one that removes some of his critical damage or his attack speed. however he's built around his basic attacks currently so it makes sense that tryndamere should be able to basic attack you to death because all of his abilities are passives/buffs and his kit is generic fighter with a combination of ability power and attack damage scalings. hopefully with the rework of armor penetration early game against fighters in general wont be so bad.

kayle is the same as tryndamere. she's a fighter with buffs/passives as her abilities and a main focus on her basic attacks.

fighters in general are supposed to be melee style basic attackers that benefit from close proximity skirmishes with varying amounts of enemies. they fill the gap between assassins and tanks. tanks soak up damage. assassins deal burst damage. so fighters do a bit of both and they achieve that by having abilities that either grant sustain or basic attack buffs as opposed to having abilities that do damage directly. assassins are supposed to get their damage from their abilities not their basic attacks.

complaining about zyra support is like complaining about lux support or morgana support or teemo support. zyra deals more damage but her team sacrifices utility and generally has less base HP bottom lane. unless they've updated her recently she actually has the least health in the entire roster. her kit also doesnt do well with the items geared for support roles since she cant heal or shield or buff or debuff. all she can do is poke and stun. if you buy boots early or have smaller champions so that it's harder to get hit then you'll be fine.

TequilaZombieNov 10, 201611 votes

The thing is: the counterplay to boxes is laughably easy. Boxes are NOT meant to be his main form of damage. They could be back in season 1, but now not even Bronze players will chase you to a box nest. Riot even nerfed box nesting. If their idea was to shift his playstyle towards boxes, they wouldn't have removed it's ability to be stacked. All that his targets would have to do in the late game to avoid being killed by Shaco if his intended playstyle was pure luring them to death, would be to stay in the middle of a lane.

This game cannot afford to have champions relying on overly delayed damage like his boxes. If that was the case, his early would be abismally bad, his mid possibly ok and his late awfully horrible. He'd become less than a minion in the late game.

Every assassin is meant to One Shot their target. That is the only thing that they bring to a team. The problem is that while OHKOing an ADC is really fun for the assassin and fitting to their theme, it's unfun for the ADC player and arguably unhealthy from a game design perspective.

Shaco has MUCH bigger problems that are not even close to "they want to play him wrong!". He's not the only nor the first champion in the game to have a thematic-gameplay disparity. And even then, the disparity is not a big one.

His whole kit is gearead towards Auto Attacking. His Q is a heavy Crit, his Passive increases his AA and Shiv damage. His clone main form of damage is by Auto Attacking a target, as it's explosion is fairly simple to avoid unless the oponent has been massively outplayed. If you focus on his boxes and ult explosion not only you're limiting yourself to a 7 seconds delay on the first and a 18 seconds delay on the second to actually bring some damage to the table, but you're also ignoring the vast potential that his P,Q, and E bring. Specially if you decide to focus on Magic Pen/Lethality as you sugested.

Dude, I hate to use the rank argument (hell, I'm Silver 5, I'm the first to admit that I suck) but c'mom. You are B4 with a 42% winrate on Shaco. Don't try to give advices on how to play Shaco, as it's obviously not working out that well for you.

By the way, why are you maxing boxes first man? I kinda get it for lane Shaco, but for jungling it does nothing for your ganks and barely helps with your farming. Arguably, the E AA slow is much more valuable than a little more damage on the boxes!

Fuck, this sounded much harsher than expected. Hope you don't take personally.

BLACK REALM GODNov 10, 20161 votes

i did take it personally but that's what happens when you try to shove your rank around as if it matters. Since it does matter to you so much though let me lay it down for you - i played season 2 as karthus (my main) as a bronze semi-noob and got tired of being trash talked by teammates who thought karthus was nothing more than a troll pick which ended up getting my account banned for 2 weeks because back during those times the report system was laughable. so i quit playing league for a year or longer. i came back and found out that my bronze rank got carried over and guess what it's still getting carried over. did you bother to read the 2017 season post? it clearly says that everyone is getting demoted to 1 rank lower from this year. you cant go lower than bronze and im not about to deal with the same nonsense when public matches are exactly the same with less drama. occasionally i dip my toes into ranked and when i do two things happen - either i get lucky and no one flames and we win or we lose. with all of the crybabies who think it's a life or death situation and the updates that riot keeps having to add to stop everyone from trying to circle jerk in mid (or whatever is OP at that exact moment) like team builder and the new champion selection that chooses your lane for you its a wonder anybody wins and if it wasnt for the fact that someone is always guaranteed to win i'd say a lot of the time both teams would lose.

so my rank is based on how little i've played ranked. in the 6-7 years i've had my account i've probably played less ranked games than you've played urf.

if you know anything about percentages then you know that they fluctuate a lot more when the numbers are smaller. 1/2 is 50% 1/3 is 33.3% 100/200 is 50% 100/201 is 49.75%

im good enough at shaco that i can play him in any lane including support. i can tell you what his abilities do without looking. i understand his mechanics well enough that if someone asked me how it works i can tell them with valid points. you admitted you suck and yet you're on here telling me not to tell others how to do something that you've admitted that you have no right to weigh in on. learn to speak for yourself.

shaco's main focus is manipulation of his opponent. not one-shotting them with basic attacks. so yes you're supposed to use your clone to taunt your opponent into fighting it or running away. yes you're supposed to use the boxes to manipulate them. the boxes were designed to control the way your opponent faces so you can backstab them. thats why the timer was extended on the boxes and the basic attack was nerfed. that's why when your clone blows up it drops boxes. they're meant to finish off your opponent if they survive the burst or to fear your opponent while you sneak in to attack.

boxes are invisible so that you can use them to close off an opponents escape route or lead them into a trap. if you're dropping them on your opponents feet then yeah they're worthless because they're not active and can be damaged.

critical damage is a percent modifier to your basic attack damage. basic attack damage is impacted by attack speed. if you get critical and dont have attack speed you're wasting gold. you get the bonus critical damage as a buffer for your basic attack and an incentive to buy other items instead of stacking critical and attack damage. that's why you're guaranteed to critical with your Q. it's not so you can stack lots of critical and run around basic attacking.

his stats are hybrid because he needs the physical damage to last hit minions/monsters and clear waves/camps since his abilities are single target focused. not because they want you to invest your entire item build into buying damage for basic attack buffs.

his throwing knife is so you can kill a low hp target who's about to get away and the two shiv poison affect is so you can prevent a medium to full health opponent from getting away from your boxes as you slow them

the backstab is an incentive to get behind your opponent which helps to improve your chances at not taking damage and rewards the player with both thematic and tangible benefits.

the clone has many uses. it can be used to secure objectives safely, it can be used to dive under the turret low hp enemies, it can be used to lead opponents into traps, it can be used to initiate team fights, it can be used to lead enemies towards ganks, it can be used to scout, it lets you use items actives that require an allied champion, and it can be used to clean up team fights or clear waves.

you're an assassin - not a fighter/tank/mage/support/marksman. assassins stalk, manipulate, and assassinate.

100-0 ing a 2.5k opponent is not being an assassin. it's being broken.

TequilaZombieNov 10, 20164 votes

Ok, lots of points. Mostly about how I can't put my input because I suck. But also some gameplay aspects, so let's break it down:

The "You suck" point

I've been maining Shaco since before you retired from League the first time. It's very possible that I have more games on him than you have across all champions. So it's pretty safe to say that I do know a thing or two about Shaco. Hell! I've played so much Shaco in the past 4 seasons that I decided to take him mid just for the sake of it because the traditional Jungle Shaco became boring for me.

I know how he works. I know what his theme is. But more importantly, I know how he should be played in any of his styles because I've extensively played them all to find out the best fit for me. Look dude, don't get me wrong, but there is no denying that there is something that you're doing that is wrong. Look at your jungle games man. You either lose or gets carried by your team (with some honorable exceptions). The most likely reason for this being that you are maxing your boxes first. They only do so much damage to camps and for ganking they are there mostly for the CC (if the enemy is dumb) or for cutting one of the escape routes or forcing flashes (if the enemy is smart). They don't do enough damage in a gank to justify maxing them first, ranking them does not impact your clear too much to justify it. Maxing them second is a viable option. First not so much. I'm offering advice from a seasoned Shaco player. If you doubt me, don't take my word. Look at any high Elo Player using Shaco. Or try it out for yourself and see how it works out. Give it a shot: Max: R>E>Q>W Build: item 3077 item 2015 into item 3087 item 3074 (in that order) with your Jungle item being built or not as you deem necessary. If you do, grab anything other than Cindehulk, but I'd advise Warrior. You want burst. The rest is situational. You might want to delay the Ravenous Hydra if you need something ASAP like a Maw or EoN to survive against a burst mage.

Your support Shaco, on the other hand, seems to be working fairly well. Kudos for that.

shaco's main focus is manipulation of his opponent. not one-shotting them with basic attacks. so yes you're supposed to use your clone to taunt your opponent into fighting it or running away. yes you're supposed to use the boxes to manipulate them.

Thematically yes. I agree 100%. If you want to actually get stuff done, I'll have to disagree. In today's League this is not a viable playstyle. You can use a box to plan out an escape route, to block a possible escape route from your enemy or even to bait them into a small nest, but once the early game is finished, their biggest strenght is as a vision tool to aid your split pushing. With the correct item set, your enemies won't be getting far enough to activate the boxes.

As I said, the one thing the enemy has to do to completely nullify the "use boxes for manipulation" play style is not chase you into unwarded bushes. Or use item 3364 . Or now a item 2055 . It is by definition a flawed playstyle once it's past the laning phase.

Assassinations in League are not accomplished by having more Style points. It's about doing the job quickly. Look at Zed, Fizz, Talon, Kha, Rengar, Eve, LB, any assassin. They are all given the tools to get on their oponent's face (or most likely back) and deal a crap load of damage to them, usually enough to kill a squishy. Why on earth would Shaco, a pure assassin, be played any differently? Once again, look at high Elo players and see how they choose to use Shaco.

The crit thingie

Everyone and their dog's pet turtle know that unless you're bulding a hard carry Shaco (a.k.a. the "I'm extremely fed and want to end this by myself" build), you won't be building too much crit chance apart from an IE and possibly a Statikk Shiv.

However, building 100% crit chance, even with no attack speed (hell is it even possible to do it without stacking IEs?) has it's perks, as the clone will deal some hefty damage with that. ~~Not that it's a great option, but it's better than some questionable choices you've made~~ ( item 1402 + item 3046 as a rush).

Now basic rundown of the last paragraphs:

his throwing knife is so you can kill a low hp target who's about to get away and the two shiv poison affect is so you can prevent a medium to full health opponent from getting away from your boxes as you slow them

Your knife has a huge AP ratio and a fairly decent range. It's a great damaging tool to add to your burst and saving if for last hitting an already low hp target specially when going AP or hybrid, is a HUGE waste of your power budget. Although, on the regular Crit Shaco build, you do use it as a finishing blow with the following combo Q enhanced AA + Regular AA/Ravenous Active/Titanic AA + E to proc thunderlords and take them down.

the backstab is an incentive to get behind your opponent which helps to improve your chances at not taking damage and rewards the player with both thematic and tangible benefits.

The tangible benefit is the 20% damage (or now 120-145% crit). You don't prevent damage when hitting someone from behind. There is no turning speed in this game. It was basicly a damage amplifier for your burst.

the clone has many uses. it can be used to secure objectives safely, it can be used to dive under the turret low hp enemies, it can be used to lead opponents into traps, it can be used to initiate team fights, it can be used to lead enemies towards ganks, it can be used to scout, it lets you use items actives that require an allied champion, and it can be used to clean up team fights or clear waves.

Yeah, the clone is quite useful. Although some of those scenarios require some magnificent amounts of deceivery to pull off paired with some overly guillable enemies.

you're an assassin - not a fighter/tank/mage/support/marksman. assassins stalk, manipulate, and assassinate.

And in League they do one more thing, that you also mentioned:

100-0 ing a 2.5k opponent

And that's what assassins are meant to do in this game. At least until Riot massively revamps them in a much more impactful way than the Rooster update.

100-0 ing a 2.5k opponent is not being an assassin. it's being broken.

That's up to discussion. Assassins, in any game with classes ever made (or in the vast majority, at least), are all about that single target burst. Taking out high priority enemies before they can retaliate or affect your team too harshly.

BLACK REALM GODNov 10, 20161 votes

if that's how you genuinely feel then shaco's character design is either severely flawed or you're ignoring the design for simpler mechanics that abuse inconsistencies.

shaco is all about the style points

you cant prevent damage but you can lessen the chances of being damaged by making your opponent either face you or face the box. if you have magic damage and magic penetration the box is a bigger threat. if you have attack speed and lethality your basic attacks are a bigger threat. if you add your clone into the mix it's even more difficult for your opponent to decide who to attack first. it works great against basic attackers like fighters and marksmen. that include jungle monsters.

he's played differently because he is different. he has to be because of his kit and his theme.

ever heard of airmech arena? the assassin class is called neo. doesnt one shot anything. spies which are also a form of assassin in games sometimes dont kill at all. they just distract. the new for honor game that's coming out by ubisoft has 3 assassin based classes and so far the two that have been shown are very different and neither 1 shots an enemy nor do they burst an enemy. one is about countering and dodging where the other is about buffing and using intricate attacks. the third one hasnt been revealed yet. smite has a few champions that are assassins and have some of the poorest scaling in the game but highest movement. they cant one shot but they can chase down wounded enemies like no tomorrow. ESO has a nightblade class which has 3 assassin variation skill lines. siphoning, assassination, and shadow. the assassin in borderlands is a sniper. the guy you play in dishonored doesnt have to kill and focuses more on misdirection. if he does kill it requires that he is unseen in order to instant kill. the assassin class in FF XIII was called saboteur and all it did was debuff the enemy. the assassins in fire emblem awakening were advanced forms of thieves and myrmidons which focused on running past the enemies and stealing treasure. if they were attack 9/10 times they'd die unless their speed was up high enough to score double hits consistently. mass effect has an enemy that's an assassin and it uses a shotgun and buffs to allow it to deal more damage and take more damage. the list goes on.

TequilaZombieNov 10, 20161 votes

Shaco's design is flawed. Riot already stated it. They said that those changes are a band-aid to hold him a bit until he receives the full VGU that he needs. At the moment, the only viable way to play Shaco is as an OHKO machine or as a Drive By bot with his E.

you cant prevent damage but you can lessen the chances of being damaged by making your opponent either face you or face the box. if you have magic damage and magic penetration the box is a bigger threat. if you have attack speed and lethality your basic attacks are a bigger threat. if you add your clone into the mix it's even more difficult for your opponent to decide who to attack first. it works great against basic attackers like fighters and marksmen. that include jungle monsters.

How to deal with Shaco + Box is dependent on champion, but there is not much mistery to it. ADCs will just want to run, not stay and fight, as Shaco can 1v1 them. Mages can AoE Shaco and the box down. With the correct build even burst Shaco before he bursts them. Tanky champions can laugh and walk away or take Shaco down. Supports can use their trinkets while their ADCs kill the clown.

spies which are also a form of assassin in games sometimes dont kill at all. they just distract.

Spies are a sort of stealth class, just as assassins, but they aren't assassins. In the same way that barbarians are a type of combat class, just like tanks, but they aren't tanks.

smite has a few champions that are assassins and have some of the poorest scaling in the game but highest movement. they cant one shot but they can chase down wounded enemies like no tomorrow.

This is from Smite wiki and goes directly against what you just said: "Assassin gods are usually melee and utilize Physical Power to boost their basic attacks and abilities. They are usually gods with high mobility and burst damage, capable of going in, taking down a target, and leaving before they enemy can react to it."

ESO has a nightblade class which has 3 assassin variation skill lines. siphoning, assassination, and shadow.

The Nightblade is a class that can be used as an Assassin, but it's not mandatory to do so. Even then, when built properly, it can 1 or 2 shot most squishy enemies.

the assassin in borderlands is a sniper.

And if you never one shot someone as a Sniper in Borderlands you sucked at head shotting.

the guy you play in dishonored doesnt have to kill and focuses more on misdirection. if he does kill it requires that he is unseen in order to instant kill.

Instant kill. From stealth. Sounds like someone you know? Shaco

the assassin class in FF XIII was called saboteur and all it did was debuff the enemy.

That an utility class, not an assassin class. You seem to have a severe case of putting anything that isn't a tank or a mage into the assassin group.

the list goes on.

The list may go on, but for every valid example you bring, there are a dozen other that show assassins bursting their targets down. Hell, you can get just D&D based games and it's similars and you'd get a longer list with one shotting assassins.

he's played differently because he is different. he has to be because of his kit and his theme.

Ok, first off: he is NOT played differently. You play him differently. Anyone playing on anything that could ever be called high level plays Shaco as a regular assassin: Burst oriented single target obliteration. ~~With the obvious exceptions of the Tank Shaco players, but the playing pattern is the same~~

He doesn't have to play differently. His kit allows him to be massivelly more effective when played as a conventional Assassin than when trying to rely on deceivery. The only reason to do so would be to roleplay as a Demon Jester, but we're talking about gameplay here.

Ok, fuck it. I'm out. There is no getting through to you. You refuse to acknowledge that you're blatantly wrong while shouting out vague arguments and deflecting to secondary topics. Even while every single person replying to you is showing arguments otherwise, while people at a much higher Elo and skill level than everyone on this thread combined uses him in a much different manner, while people break it down to you and your own games show how wrong you are via their results, you fucking refuse to listen. Congrats. You got me tilted. In a forum.

Warlord DienekesNov 10, 20161 votes

Wait wait wait. Are you actually use For Honor, a game with a completely different mechanic system different method of victory, and different design meaning by the word assassin to try and talk about how LOL works?

Hell man why don't you bring up Smash Bros it's about as relevant. Or claim that the word tank means something different in World of Tanks. All assassin means in For Honor is that the classes focus on speed and the deflect mechanic. That has nothing at all to do with what assassins are in LoL.

That is one of the silliest arguments I've heard on this site. Different games use words differently in different contexts. How about that?

Hella Gay NerdNov 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BWvXzPmr,comment-id=00030001000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-10T22:02:11.102+0000)

if that's how you genuinely feel then shaco's character design is either severely flawed or you're ignoring the design for simpler mechanics that abuse inconsistencies.

shaco is all about the style points

you cant prevent damage but you can lessen the chances of being damaged by making your opponent either face you or face the box. if you have magic damage and magic penetration the box is a bigger threat. if you have attack speed and lethality your basic attacks are a bigger threat. if you add your clone into the mix it's even more difficult for your opponent to decide who to attack first. it works great against basic attackers like fighters and marksmen. that include jungle monsters.

he's played differently because he is different. he has to be because of his kit and his theme.

ever heard of airmech arena? the assassin class is called neo. doesnt one shot anything. spies which are also a form of assassin in games sometimes dont kill at all. they just distract. the new for honor game that's coming out by ubisoft has 3 assassin based classes and so far the two that have been shown are very different and neither 1 shots an enemy nor do they burst an enemy. one is about countering and dodging where the other is about buffing and using intricate attacks. the third one hasnt been revealed yet. smite has a few champions that are assassins and have some of the poorest scaling in the game but highest movement. they cant one shot but they can chase down wounded enemies like no tomorrow. ESO has a nightblade class which has 3 assassin variation skill lines. siphoning, assassination, and shadow. the assassin in borderlands is a sniper. the guy you play in dishonored doesnt have to kill and focuses more on misdirection. if he does kill it requires that he is unseen in order to instant kill. the assassin class in FF XIII was called saboteur and all it did was debuff the enemy. the assassins in fire emblem awakening were advanced forms of thieves and myrmidons which focused on running past the enemies and stealing treasure. if they were attack 9/10 times they'd die unless their speed was up high enough to score double hits consistently. mass effect has an enemy that's an assassin and it uses a shotgun and buffs to allow it to deal more damage and take more damage. the list goes on.

Man everyone in this thread has been pretty nice but it's super obvious you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

What you want thematically vs what you actually get in this game is completely different. The fact that you suggest hybrid or to stack lethality and AP is just embarrassing.

No matter how much you "misdirect" you are not going to bait anyone with a pulse with your clone to follow it into an obvious gank and most of the time you aren't going to even "bait" them into killing it for the damage it does.

You need to just admit that what you want Shaco to be and what Shaco is are completely different and stop pretending that assassins in League aren't meant to immediately blow someone up in order to be viable

Son Of ZanarkandNov 10, 20164 votes

See Black Realm God, this is a response to comments below as well

Shaco although yes he is supposed to deceive his opponents a Singed he is not. The he was broken before and he was unhealthy, it was the result of lower elo people (over extending, over staying, not grouping and not pink warding or warding in general) . He'd do what an assassin is supposed to do, if you extend without your team and its a 1v1 the assassin will win. hes there to ASSASSINATE YOU get it ? Hes supposed to punish people for over extending its what assassins do. Now im expected to be an Ivern supp jg that roams around unable to 1v1 anyone unless I somehow get super fed which is incredibly hard, especially in high elo ques. The run down on his abilities(my view / play style). Q gap close or escape method. Which lead to the deceive part hehe. You want to confuse your opponents not lead them to a box mushroom forest like some toxic Teemo main. W was a tool to allow enough cc that made your ganks worth it if the 1v1 went down it gave you enough time to burst them before they one shot you. E was and awesome way to slow them so they were unable to run away from you, or to get that last hit as they flash... those always felt good. R was a great way to trick the enemy team or to provide pressure on tower when needed.

The rework shaco is an AA dmg dealer that's made of paper that does as much dmg as an underfed adc without the safety of being ranged. You want to talk about unhealthy explain why a lot of people that know and love shaco in higher elo ques feel like hes a joke.

BLACK REALM GODNov 10, 20161 votes

because they dont want to embrace hybrid ap shaco and go through the trouble of manipulating the enemy when it was so much easier to just headbutt the keyboard and get a pentakill. if i had to guess.

TequilaZombieNov 10, 20162 votes

Maybe because Hybrid Shaco is worse than AD Shaco at bursting, split pushing, clearing the jungle, securing objectives and taking turrets.

Maybe because Hybrid Shaco is worse than AP Shaco at bursting, cheesing and team fighting.

Most likely because hybrid itemization in League has not been in a good state for as far as most of it's current players can remember.

Ohh, also because it's easier and more effective.

SaiannaNov 10, 20161 votes

prior to the update the only gameplay mechanic was to buy critical and attack damage

You talk about ADCs right now dude.

BLACK REALM GODNov 10, 20161 votes

adc's were the same way and that's why armor penetration got changed to lethality. the only difference is that adc's - which by that i assume you mean marksmen - are ranged basic attackers. if you're not talking about marksmen but instead are talking about any champion that can carry with physical damage then yeah, that's generally what should be bought and is usually bought by anyone with a chance at scaling into a carry.

however marksmen rely on basic attacks and assassins rely on abilities. that's where the line was being crossed. it was almost like everyone was building fighter style builds on everything. even tanks and mages were doing it. so now most assassins rely heavily on their abilities and stalking like they're supposed to.

SaiannaNov 10, 20164 votes

Marksmen, ranged champions... i simply call them ADC.

It's easier and faster.

however marksmen rely on basic attacks

True

and assassins rely on abilities.

False. Well.. We are here talking about Shaco, whose most power came from slapping target with his fists.

Shaco got hit hard for pretty much nothing. And that's the main point of Shaco threads. Lets focus at that, okay?

BLACK REALM GODNov 10, 20161 votes

he got hit because he wasnt designed with basic attacking as a primary focus. it's a supplementary focus. all assassins are designed as ability champs with abilities that target a single opponent and deal high damage. every champion needs some damage to kill the minions and earn gold and xp. in assassins that damage usually comes in the form of basic attacks or a single ability that is a small AOE, cone, or chain effect like katarinas Q, kassadin's E, and akali's W

Ahri Akali Ekko Evelynn Fiora Fizz Irelia Jax Jhin Kassadin Katarina Khazix Leblanc LeeSin Malzahar MasterYi Nidalee Nocturne Pantheon Rengar Riven Shaco Talon Teemo Tristana Tryndamere Twitch Vayne Xerath XinZhao Yasuo Zed

with the exception of outliers like the champions that arent primarily assassins and yi who was created in the early stages of league's development all of these champions are ability based champions. yi is a squishy version of a fighter with higher damage scaling which is one reason why he's so hard to balance.

SaiannaNov 10, 20161 votes

all assassins are designed as ability champs

No no no nonononononononononono

And again, no.

Well.. At least I don't believe that's the case here. Because why would Riot nerf both his abilities AND his AAing power?

It's like taking a shotgun and shooting at your knee. Stupid Pointless

Btw I know how long it takes to find all champs and write 'em down, nice :P

BLACK REALM GODNov 10, 20161 votes

then name 1 other than yi and the outliers that doesnt use abilities as their primary damage.

edit

and to answer your question about nerfing both. it's the initial nerf. if he ends up being too weak then they'll try to give him a little more power. i've played as him post rework and he seems to struggle against the new items when fighting a mobile ranged opponent. when in jungle he cant clear the raptor camp efficiently. other than that he seems fine

SaiannaNov 10, 20161 votes

Shaco, Yi, Twitch, Vayne,

3 of them have 1 thing in common: they are old designs.

Vayne is simply too weird :P

BLACK REALM GODNov 10, 20161 votes

vayne and twitch are both marksmen first and foremost so of course they rely on basic attacks. that's what i was talking about when i said other than the outliers

yi i've already mentioned.

shaco just got his rework to fix the basic attack overuse. once they determine if his abilities are too weak he'll get some kind of buff if he deserves it. try buying lich bane or nashoors tooth. they help a lot if you're serious about trying to use your basic attacks to kill without using your boxes and clone. shaco has the benefit of being an on-hit champion thanks to his two-shiv poison. if you build him on hit you might be able to still fulfill your role as an assassin, but you wont be able to assassinate as efficiently due to the low stats on on-hit builds

TequilaZombieNov 10, 20161 votes

Trynd, Riven and Vi mentioned as assassins.

</thread>

TequilaZombieNov 10, 20161 votes

Shaco got hit hard for pretty much nothing

He got hit by being midly annoying to face. Like nothing else in this game can annoy the shit out of someone. /kappa

AstôlfoNov 10, 20165 votes

Uh no. Assassins are supposed to near instantaneously one-shot delete any squishy target. But then said crappy squishy target players started crying and whining, and got assassins gutted as a result.

"shaco has always been about deceiving his opponents and leading them into the box of doom or using his clone to confuse the opponent and getting them to kill the clone ultimately killing themselves or if not killing themselves allowing you to throw your knife and last hit." lul not even close.

"[snip] ... that is not a healthy gameplay style." It is perfectly healthy. If you died to a Shaco, then you played badly and deserved to get deleted instantly.

Shaco's not a fighter. It should not take him anything past like 1 second MAXIMUM to delete a target. It really shouldn't even be a full second. Don't like getting instantly deleted? Then learn to play against him. But noooooo, crappy squishy players whine and cry and now Shaco is trash. RIP.

BLACK REALM GODNov 10, 20161 votes

the only game where assassins should one shot enemies is assassin's creed. everything else you've said is based on that flawed belief you've molded from your opinion of what an assassin should be.

AstôlfoNov 10, 20164 votes

And what's not to say literally everything you said is based on your flawed belief assassins should not oneshot targets? There's literally not the slightest problem with it. Even when an assassin jumped on you (pre-assassin rework), you still had usually a fraction of a second to respond to the actual combo, let alone any preparation time or pre-emptive cautions (wards/etc). The only ones crying about being deleted are the shitty players that deserved it because they played horribly.

Shacos Rework didnt make him better

46 Comments

More from Gameplay